Talk:Historical Vaikundar

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Requested move 22 October 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

– Neutral references refer Ayya Vaikundar as a historical individual who founded Ayyavazhi. Redtigerxyz Talk 08:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Jenks24 (talk) 09:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Historical Vaikundar → Ayya Vaikundar
 * Ayya Vaikundar → Ayya Vaikundar in Ayyavazhi mythology

Most neutral references use Ayya Vaikundar for the historical figure; rather a mythical being. Non-religious academic literature mentions Ayyavazhi or Ayya Vaikundar as the following:
 * Historical Dictionary of New Religious Movements - p. 48 "Founded in the 19th century by Ayya Vaikundar (ca. 1810—ca. 1857), who claimed to be an avatar of Narayan (Vishnu), the movement derives from the Hindu tradition, although some claim it to be a separate religion."
 * The Problem with Interreligious Dialogue: Plurality.. "This cult was founded by a man named Muthukutti, now called by his followers Ayya Vaikundar, who claimed to be an avatara of Vishnu and born in 1809 in Travancore in the oppressed Nadar caste."
 * FACETS OF CONTEMPORARY HISTORY pp. 261-2 "Its founder was a famous socio-religious reformer called Muthukutty or Mudisoodum Perumal, popularly known as Ayya Vaikunda Swami. Ayyavazhi is centered on the life and preaching of Ayya Vaikundar, his ideas and philosophy. ... Ayya Vaikunda Swami was a socio-religious and political reformer in Tranvore ... Ayya Vaikundar's followers reffered to him as Ayya, the father. After his death, there emerged a cult known as Ayyavazhi, the path of Ayya". Historical figures like Jesus, Muhammad, Sai baba of Shirdi which are described in neutral sources and religious sources. Ayya Vaikundar in Ayyavazhi mythology is suggested to be retained as a Mythology article Talk:Ayya_Vaikundar_in_Ayyavazhi_mythology; however the main article should be written from a neutral, historical perspective. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 08:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ayya Vaikundar Article: Ayya Vaikundar is the principal diety in Ayyavazhi. He is a transcendental/spiritual being/personality who includes within him multiple characters right from the beginning of the universe as narrated in the scriptures. He Includes within himself
 * 1. Lord Narayana/Vishnu (deity) from the first yuga;
 * 2. Sampooranathevan, a deva (mythical being) just before incarnating in the world;
 * 3. Mudisoodum Perumal, an ordinary human being.
 * Ayya Vaikundar includes the above mentioned characters within himself for different time periods; each for different reasons, and camouflaged behind the identity of Mudisoodum Perumal, again for a reason. (I am not going into the details here as it lengthy and complex).
 * The scriptures Akilam and Arul Nool are the primary sources of the above mentioned details on Ayya Vaikundar, the principal diety. Including the name Ayya Vaikundar. Hence the article Ayya Vaikundar (who is not essentially a real person/biological human) should be based on the narrative in Akilam, the primary scripture, which is considered sacred by millions of people. So the Ayya Vaikundar article is written in that perspective as a mythology article. (But the article is poorly written since it was written some 15 years back; The work is a lengthy process and I am working on it.)
 * Historical Vaikundar Article: Historical view is confined to the physical realm and is subject to scientific/rational scrutiny. So in the historical perspective the Biological Human 'Mudisoodum Perumal' (the humanly part which is included within Vaikundar) is seen a Vaikundar and all of his activities are ambarked to Vaikundar. That's just a perspective and it is acceptable within the guidelines of the discipline of Historiography. So the article Historical Vaikundar is written in that perspective as a biography article. Even in that case it does not fit into a regular biographical MOS criteria. So in that case additional details be added in the Historical Vaikundar article or a seperate MOS be created for Vaikundar related articles as something like 'WP:Manual of Style/Vaikundar' or so.
 * Also, it should never be confused that these are merely two different views about a same personality. 4 different characters are involved each of them began and end at different time periods. And all these will be covered in detail once the Ayya Vaikundar article is complete.
 * And as a side-note: With utmost civility I would like to say that You, User Redtigerxyz  who nominates this article to be moved to Ayya Vaikundar is already aware of these things as I had repeated these in detail multiple times already. Also, You had just moved Ayya Vaikundar to Ayya Vaikundar in Ayyavazhi Mythology! So the article Krishnato be moved to Krishna in Hindu Mythology!?!
 * It appears that you over enthusiastic about the topic and is acting selectively in all possible ways around it! -  Vaikunda Raja  :talk:  09:28, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Vaikunda Raja, neutral WP:RS refer to the historical Vaikundar - the founder of Ayyavazhi, the social reformer - when referring Ayya Vaikundar, not the mythological being - the deity of Ayyavazhi.

https://ayyavaikundar.in/%E0%AE%B5%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%81%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%85%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B0-%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B1%E0%AF%81/ KrishnakumarSiva (talk) 15:38, 12 November 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Hindusthan Times refers to "a thinker and social reformer of the 19th century."
 * The Week - "The reformist sect founded by "the highly venerated Ayya Vaikundar over 200 years ago was to staunchly oppose religious conversions and to uphold equality and fraternity,"
 * The Hindu "When the reformists like Ayya Vaikundar, E.V.R. Periyar and others protested against this injustice, they were humiliated, assaulted and tortured."
 * The Hindu "followers of social reformer Ayya Vaikundar in Kanniyakumari district in Tamil Nadu are demanding that their sect be declared a separate religion." -- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:28, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Redtigerxyz You had first moved the page Ayya Vaikundar to Ayya Vaikundar in Ayyavazhi Mythology without discussion, silently! Once contested, now you had initiated a discussion; Right.
 * So I REPEAT once again. If Ayya Vaikundar is to be moved to Ayya Vaikundar in Ayyavazhi Mythology then the article Krishna is to be moved to Krishna in Hindu Mythology!?! Rama to be moved to Rama in Hindu Mythology, Jesus to be moved to Jesus in Christian Mythology!? Vaikunda Raja  :talk:  11:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Redtigerxyz Your comment about WP:RS is not inconsistent with what I had told earlier. In the case of religious/mythology articles the secondary sources which are commentaries/ interpretations of the primary sources Scriptures/Holy texts is considered as reliable sources. In this case, there are 100+ commentaries available and several of them are full length commentaries which are readily circulated in tens of thousands. The sources you cited were all historical sources which are used in Historical Vaikundar Article. They have nothing to do with the religious article Ayya Vaikundar which is clearly a mythology oriented article.
 * If my memory is good I had repeated these things to you atleast at half a dozen instances. I wonder that as a user like you with a fair amount of experience in WP couldn't figure out this. - Vaikunda Raja  :talk:  12:05, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Life glory of Lord Ayya Vaikundar is outlined strictly based on Holy Akilathirattu Ammanai which is the primary text for all and Arul Nool without any deviation and historical events involving his presence his acts in human form can be classified year wise beginning from his manifestation, followed by different phases of penance, complaints of missionaries to the British Govt, acts of King of Travancore, imprisoned in jail and his release, marriages (Thirukalyanam), Muthiri Kinaru, establishments of Nizhal Thangals and Thuvayal Thavasu etc on various occasions. They could come as historical time line or historical events involving Lord Ayya Vaikundar, mentioning the supporting documents wherever they are available including external documents available if any.  Also, i would like to merge this historical vaikundar page with Ayya vaikundar page to avoid duplication of contents. Holy Akilathriattu Ammanai says LORD NARAYANA HIMSELF INCARNATED AS LORD VAIKUNDAR. Thanks
 * Also read,
 * http://www.vaikundar.com/history-of-ayya-vaikundar.aspx
 * https://www.ayyadharmapathi.com/history/

Lord Vaikundar is an incarnation of Lord Mahavishnu
The article on this topic, Historical Vaikundar, is an intentionally fabricated article. Most of the information mentioned in it is totally different from Primary source of Akilathirattu Ammanai. Lord Vaikundar History is the historical events mentioned in the Akilathiratu Ammanai. There is no need to write the history of Lord Vaikundar as an alternative to Akilthiratu Ammanai.[1] If you write the history of Ayya Vaikundar based on hearsay and a recently published book based on hearsay, it will lead to a lot of misunderstanding and stigmatization of Ayya Vaikundar.[Historical vaikundar article References and citation] According to Holy Akilathiratu Ammanai, the Lord's incarnation took place 1833 (Kollam 1008)-Page no: 5, 242 (Akilathirattu Ammanai ). From the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu to the Prime Minister of India, their Ayya Vaikundar Avatar Day greetings are based on the Avatar event that happened in 1833.[2][3][4][5] The author of this article quoting the birth of Ayya Vaikundar in 1809 is misunderstanding and unacceptable. When writing on a site like Wikipedia, one should write on the basis of the primary text, which can be a source. It is very sad news to cite an article based on recent 20 30 years old texts based on hearsay information[6]. This will reduce the credibility of Wikipedia. It is written in this article to stigmatize the Vaikunta avatar that he married a woman married at the age of 17. According to Holy Akilathiratu Ammanai one who can be called Sampoorna Deva who married a girl at the age of 17 but the author of this article has written in a wrong perspective due to misunderstanding.[7] (page-206 Akilathiratu Ammanai). The majority of references cited in this article refer to non-fundamental articles published within the last 20 to 30 years. It is surprising to cite articles published in the last 20 to 30 years for a historical event that occurred in the 18th century. Hoky Akhilathirattu Ammanai was written during Vaikundar's avatara period but there is no false information like the one mentioned in this article in later foot print edition and similar book editions. Many articles like this one, written based on unsubstantiated hearsay stories, are now being revised and published according to Holy Akilathirattu Ammanai[8][9][10][11] (Daily thanthi news). We kindly request you to remove this article from this site as this type of articles written with such baseless hearsay stories are very disturbing to the worshipers of Lord Vaikundar.

wikipedia has two pages Ayya Vaikundar and Historical Vaikundar, but the information given in both is completely different and many of the information are different from Holy Akilathiratu Ammanai, so I request you to publish the history of God Ayya Vaikundar in one page as told in Holy Akilathiratu Ammanai on wikipedia like other wikipedia pages of God Rama, God Krishna, God Karthikeya. Reference •	Akilathiratu Ammanai foot Print version and book version •	Tamil Nadu Chief Minister wishes for Ayya Vaikundar incarnation day. •	Ayya Vaikundar incarnation day greetings release from Prime Minister •	Ayya Vaikundar incarnation day greetings release from Raj Bhavan Tamil Nadu •	Raj Bhavan Tamil Nadu Celebration of 192 nd Incarnation Day of Ayya Vaikundaswamy and Sanatana History Book Launch of SRI MAHA VISHNU’S AVATAR SRI VAIKUNDA SWAMI •	Daily Thanthi News 03-03-2024

Citations[edit source] 1.	^ "Akilathirattu Ammanai" Foot print (Thenthamaraikulam Pathi-1840) 2.	^ "Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Ayya Vaikundar incarnation wishes" (`3 March 2024) 3.	^ "Prime Minister of India Ayya Vaikundar incarnation wishes" (`3 March 2024) 4.	^ "Raj Bhavan Tamil Nadu Ayya Vaikundar incarnation wishes" (`3 March 2024) 5.	^ "Puthia Thalaimarai (Leading Tamil Daily Ayya Vaikundar incarnation wishes" (`3 March 2024) 6.	^ "Vivekanandan 2003" 7.	^ "Akilathiratu Ammanai" Page-206 Book version

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