Talk:Historical Vedic religion/Archive 3

Revert
please don't revert without explicating your objections; especially not when you demand consensus, without, starting a discussion. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  09:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh! I am really sorry for the revert, I thought you removed the Kalash section. I apologize for my mistake. LearnIndology (talk) 16:23, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks; glad it was a mistake. The Kalash are definitely relevant, as they have preserved the Vedic rituals. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  06:46, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Neutrality
what are you trying to accomplish with tagging this article diff for an alleged lack of neutrality? What exactly is not neutral about it? WP:NPOV says:

Which side is neglected, or presented in a biased way, given which source? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  08:08, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The nature of this article is mainly bais and has been kept deliberately limited to so-called "early Indo Aryans", ignoring the fact that it is still being practised by more than 8 million people. Although I can see sections giving space to it, still that changes nothing, as lead doesn't summarise that and "declare" Vedism as "religion" and ignores the fact that it can also be described as "school" of Hinduism. Apart from that, we are already discussing the title. This article is full of POV, so I am placing NPOV tag. LearnIndology (talk) 08:31, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The topic of this article is the religion of the historical Vedic people. Wiki-policies encourage delineating precise topics. We already have articles on Hinduism and the History of Hinduism. Those are braod overview articles. This article, on the Vedic religion, provides more detail on a subtopic, just like for example Vedanta provides more detail on a subtopic, and Advaita Vedanta provides more detail on a subtopic of Vedanta.
 * The article does not ignore the fact that Vedic rituals are still being practiced, as you acknowledge yourself, and which is also mentioned in the lead:
 * "Religion" is a common term, and the phrase "Vedic religion" is the common name, as explained before. "Hinduism" is also regarded as a religion; this point of discussion is actually pointless.
 * This article is called "Historical Vedic religion" and not "vedic religion," beceause Vedic religion is a disambiguation page.
 * Describing Vedism and Brahmanism as "schools of Hinduism" is hardly relevant here, as the topic is the religion of the historical Vedic people, not Hinduism or the history of Hinduism. Sullivan explains that "Hinduism" is significantly different from "Brahmanism," but that "it is also convenient to have a single term for the whole complex of interrelated traditions. So, if you insist, we mention the ambiguity of the term "Hinduism":
 * The transformation from "Brahmanism" into "Hinduism" is also explained in the article:
 * Regarding "full of POV," Template:POV:
 * Please provide specific examples, and suggest possible improvements, with WP:RS. Otherwise, the template will be removed again, as being baseless.
 * Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  09:11, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I propose this new lead:
 * This lead as compared with the current one is more neutral and gives a wider view of Vedism.
 * LearnIndology (talk) 09:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  09:11, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I propose this new lead:
 * This lead as compared with the current one is more neutral and gives a wider view of Vedism.
 * LearnIndology (talk) 09:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This lead as compared with the current one is more neutral and gives a wider view of Vedism.
 * LearnIndology (talk) 09:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It's less neutral, and incorrect. "Vedism is the oldest stratum of religious activity in India" is bullshit. Almost every author agrees that the Vedic religion, and certainly Hinduism, incorporated Harappan and animistic influences, which predate the Vedic religion. Also, you removed "Brahmanism," so you made scope smaller, instead of broader. Vedism evolved into Brahmanism during the Vedic period. At best, you can add "Brahmanism is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism" before "though present-day." Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  09:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I have updated the lead as per your request.

LearnIndology (talk) 10:24, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * You forgot "Brahmanism is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism." You probably mean
 * NB: the lead summarizes the article; you're still trying to change the scope of this article, and ignoring it's contents. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  11:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but I am not trying to change the scope of the article, but widen the scope. The lead below summarises the whole article and gives the reader an idea that [Vedism was the religion of "early Indo-Aryans", as well as, it is a tradition that shaped Hinduism]. In my opinion, there can be no better lead than this to summarise the article:
 * Note: Brahminism has not been ignored here as you were pointing out above. It is there in the very first line, that too in bold words:)
 * LearnIndology (talk) 12:01, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: Brahminism has not been ignored here as you were pointing out above. It is there in the very first line, that too in bold words:)
 * LearnIndology (talk) 12:01, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * LearnIndology (talk) 12:01, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * We first define what the topic is; eventually we describe it's relation to other topics. You're turning things upside down: "Vedism [...] is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism" is not a defintion. The full sentence is grammatically incorrect: itmentions two traditiins, but refers to them in the singular. And it is historically incorrect: Vedism evolved into Brahmanism, and Brahmanism is one of the main constituents of Hinduism. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  12:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Defining the topic makes sense. But "Brahmanism" needs to replaced by "Vedism" here as per sources.. LearnIndology (talk) 13:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The sources say that Vedism evolved into Brahmanism, and that this Brahmanical ideology was subsequently synthesized with non-Vedic religions, when Brahmanism lost influence (that is, income). So, I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  14:02, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Source clearly says "Vedism was one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism.". See
 * Where's the confusion? LearnIndology (talk) 14:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I just read it:

Now I also understand what you meant with "Vedism is the oldest stratum of religious activity in India"; you omitted "written materials." I've changed "Brahmanism" into "it" (no, not the killer clown); I hope that suffices. By the way, this is interesting info from the EB:

500-300 BCE is also given by other sources as the onset of the Hindu synthesis. Really fascinating: how a religious tradition "disappeared," and yet survived, as some sorf of archaeological layer in a present-day religion. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  14:18, 13 April 2021 (UTC) PS: in the sentence "Vedism [...] is one of the major traditions that shaped Hinduism," the main topic is not Vedism, but Hinduism, if you understand what I mean. Regards, Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  14:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC) Some more from EB:

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!  14:30, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for this, and indeed it is fascinating to see how these traditions have survived till date, especially in Indian weddings. I was reading about Hindu weddings the other day and I was quite surprised to see that Rigvedic deities are primarily worshipped during Hindu weddings.
 * and so on...
 * I am still learning about it, so pardon me if I am wrong anywhere:) LearnIndology (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * and so on...
 * I am still learning about it, so pardon me if I am wrong anywhere:) LearnIndology (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * and so on...
 * I am still learning about it, so pardon me if I am wrong anywhere:) LearnIndology (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I am still learning about it, so pardon me if I am wrong anywhere:) LearnIndology (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Well let's shake hands here; nice to solve it this way. Regards, Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  16:22, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 7 April 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Consensus against the move as proposed. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  00:47, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Historical Vedic religion → Vedism – There are no sources describing the subject of this article as "Historical Vedic religion", but the majority of citations use "Vedism", as demonstrated here:







LearnIndology (talk) 18:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Even Sir Monier Monier-Williams nowhere used the term "Historical Vedic religion", instead he used the term "Vedism"


 * Oppose - Vedism is ambigue, as implied by "Vedism refers to the schools of Hinduism that base their beliefs on.." The historical Vedic religion was not Hinduism. But Vedism, as a synonym, is mentioned in the lead, just like the EB does; clearly, that suffices. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  19:08, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No, historical vedic religion is very uncommon tilte and isn't mentioned in any reliable source, while Vedism has been used since 18th century and is still in use. Please go through WP:COMMONNAME. LearnIndology (talk) 19:33, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The word "historical" refers to how this article was about the Vedic religion only during the Vedic period. Chariotrider555 (talk) 19:58, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There are no reliable sources using that term, and titles are kept per WP:COMMONNAME, not by our own choice and liking. LearnIndology (talk) 01:34, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * at second thought, okay. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  10:51, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm glad we've come to an agreement. I'll let you have the honors of performing the page move. LearnIndology (talk) 18:08, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Withdrawing my support as per this edit by LearnIndology, which changed
 * into
 * A gross misrepresentation of the sources, and shameless pov-pushing, based on one single sentence from one source. You proposed to move the page; instead you change the topic of this page, based on one sentence from a single source. We're reminded once again where you stand: WP:NOTHERE. Hack, you didn't even read, or bother to change, what the first sentence says: "or (anachronistically) ancient Hinduism." Fuller quote: "This branch of Hinduism grows directly out of the religion brought by the Aryan Indo-Europeans." The topic is that religion of the Vedic Indo-Aryans; not present-day forms of Hinduism. Trying to present this as a form of Hinduism is all too obvious pov-pushing inappropriate, especially given the discussion going at the talkpage of the India-page. So, we stick to "Historical Vedic religion," to make it chrystal-clear what the topic is. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  18:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, I thought you were okay with it. This was a misunderstanding which I apologize for. We can keep the lead as it is for now and discuss it after some time. At least we can agree to move the page for now? LearnIndology (talk) 19:02, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your apologies; appreciated. But no, I don't agree to move the page for now. "Vedic religion" is also WP:COMMONNAME; "Historical" makes clear what period we're talking about. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  19:04, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Nuance: Bruce M. Sullivan (2001), The A to Z of Hinduism, p.9 explains that Vedism and Brahmninism differ from Hinduism, but that "Hinduism" can also be used as a convenient shorthand for the whole tradition starting with, or paying reverence to (is this correct English?):
 * In that respect is it convenient to refer to Vedism and Brahmanism as "schools of Hinduism." But in this article, it's confusing. It explicitly treats the pre-Hindu Vedic religion. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  19:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I just looked-up Monier-Williams: "I propose making use of the three words Vedism, Brahmanism, and Hinduism as convenient expressions for the three principal stages or phases in the development of that complicated system [...] Hinduism grew out of Brahmanism." Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  03:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree! LearnIndology (talk) 06:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * In that respect is it convenient to refer to Vedism and Brahmanism as "schools of Hinduism." But in this article, it's confusing. It explicitly treats the pre-Hindu Vedic religion. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  19:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I just looked-up Monier-Williams: "I propose making use of the three words Vedism, Brahmanism, and Hinduism as convenient expressions for the three principal stages or phases in the development of that complicated system [...] Hinduism grew out of Brahmanism." Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  03:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree! LearnIndology (talk) 06:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I just looked-up Monier-Williams: "I propose making use of the three words Vedism, Brahmanism, and Hinduism as convenient expressions for the three principal stages or phases in the development of that complicated system [...] Hinduism grew out of Brahmanism." Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  03:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree! LearnIndology (talk) 06:54, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose - I admit that "Vedism" is certainly in use among specialists but it is by no means a COMMONNAME. See the Google ngram viewer. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * These results are due to Wikipedia artifacts. LearnIndology (talk) 18:53, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I see a peak at Ngram (nice tool!) for "Vedic religion" there at 1998; Wikipedia didn't exist then yet. So, it would rather be the other way round: Wikipedia followed the common name when this article was created.
 * Article titles gives five criteria: "Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent." "Vedic religion" fits those criteria better than "Vedism," but Vedic religion is already in use as a disambiguation page; hence "Historical Vedic religion." It's a recognizable etc. delineation of the topic.
 * NB: "Vedic religion" ca. 78,000 hits at Google Books, 6,290 hits at Google Scholar; "Vedism" ca. 14,000 hits at Google Books, 1,820 hits at Google Scholar. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  04:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This is the first edit on this page. This article was supposed to be what Indian religions is today. But anyway I still prefer "Vedism" over "Vedic religion". There are many technicalities related to the word "religion". Religion is a very controversial word here, that's why I avoided it. Scholars avoid using it even with modern Hinduism. Even Sir Monier Monier-Williams used the term "Vedism". Some sources describe "Vedism" as the oldest stratum and school of Hinduism while some consider it as a separate religion. Thus the term "Vedism" gives a wide overview of this school/religion controversy. Whether it is a school of Hinduism or a separate religion can be explained in great detail in the body of the article, but giving the judgment of "religion" in the very title of this article is misleading. The term "Vedism" sounds neither "religion" nor a "school", thus best to use keeping in view WP:NPOV. LearnIndology (talk) 06:56, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Please read Google Ngram Viewer before trying to construct theories about what it says.
 * And WP:TITLE tells you how article titles are decided. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:04, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Funny, I also looked-up that one! Indian religions, indeed. But I don't see how "Scholars avoid using it [the term "religion"] even with modern Hinduism." The term "religion" does indeed have it's problems, as it is a western construct; it is for this reason that Hinduism starts with "Hinduism is an Indian religion and dharma, or way of life." Nevertheless, it's the term we usually use. And anyway, "Vedism" is given as a synonym. Regards, Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  07:10, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * We have to evaluate each aspect of the title. If the title is not neutral, then we need to make it neutral. How do you justify the WP:OR terms like "Historical". Regarding the use of the word "religion", it is a violation of WP:NPOV, emphasizing just one aspect of the subject. LearnIndology (talk) 07:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Why the term "historical" is being used has already been explained, multiple times. Don't drag in any policy that seems to suit your needs. We're talking about a historical period, not the present times. NPOV refers to a neutral overview, c.q. presentation, of various points of view. I'm not aware of any scholarly source objecting against using the term "religion" for the, well, religion, of the Vedic people. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  07:23, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You were free to label Vedism as "historic", had people had stopped practising Vedism, but there are more than 8 million adherents practising pure Vedism. So, there is no way Vedism can be labelled as something "historic" and only limited to "early Indo Aryans" when it is still being practised. This article needs to be re-written. LearnIndology (talk) 07:47, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You were free to label Vedism as "historic", had people had stopped practising Vedism, but there are more than 8 million adherents practising pure Vedism. So, there is no way Vedism can be labelled as something "historic" and only limited to "early Indo Aryans" when it is still being practised. This article needs to be re-written. LearnIndology (talk) 07:47, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment I like "Historical Vedic religion" as it makes very clear that the article is only about pre-Hinduism history, and does not go into modern ramifications. It brings much needed clarification to the issues at hand, and avoids confusing everything. पाटलिपुत्र  Pat   (talk) 07:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The term "Historical" is pure WP:OR. LearnIndology (talk) 07:15, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it's just a segmentation, a way of defining the limits of the article. पाटलिपुत्र  Pat   (talk) 07:16, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * What limits? Isn't Vedism being practised even today? Isn't Hinduism based on Vedas? How is this Historical? LearnIndology (talk) 07:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This article is primarily about the religion of the historical Vedic people. Period. The survival of the orthodox srauta-ritual is mentioned at Historical Vedic religion. See WP:DONTGETIT for your refusal to get the point. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  07:23, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why to define it as "religion of Vedic people" when it is still being practiced? I see a strong bias here. LearnIndology (talk) 07:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No, you don't understand indeed, that's obvious. We're talking about the topic of the article, to delineate it from other topics. The surviving srauta-ritual is also mentioned, as stated above, with a hatnote to Śrauta. That article treats the srauta-ritual in more detail, this article treats the religion of the Vedic people from ca. 1200 BCE. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  08:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Support - I agree with LearnIndology, Vedism sounds more neutral and precise. Given the complexities of these terms, it is best to avoid the word "religion" in the title, but can be explained in the body.  Dinesh  (talk) 12:34, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose - In complete support of points raised by Joshua Jonathan. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Scope is too restricted for proposed title. The term "Historical Vedic religion" is very rare, however. I wonder if (1) this article should not be renamed to an even clearer title and (2) Vedism should be redirected somewhere else. Vedic religion is a dab page. Srnec (talk) 00:30, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 15 April 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Historical Vedic religion → Vedism – The last move request was closed prematurely and the views of some editors changed at the last moment and more time was required for some editors to make comments. We already had an exhaustive debate so I believe it is not needed now, Thus, I request everyone here to please comment on their view, whether it is Support or Oppose. Regards LearnIndology (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose, for the same reasons stated by me above and the points brought up by Joshua Jonathan. 16:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the comment! Can you please sign your comment though? LearnIndology (talk) 16:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Whoops! I think I only put 3 dashes instead of 4! Chariotrider555 (talk) 16:36, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Hahaha! It happens. You can update it now. LearnIndology (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support. I agree with LearnIndology. I went through the discussion and it seems logical to rename the article to "Vedism" in view of the fact that aspects of it are still practiced today. I agree with Joshua here too desmay (talk) 00:25, 16 April 2021 (UTC)