Talk:Historical urban community sizes/Archive 1

Initial talk
There is an article you guys might interesting; take a look - Largest Cities Through History --Kerry7374 03:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes Please merge them, the other article is too short. Oidia 22:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

As usual, Eastern Europe seems not to exist before 1600. In the meantime, the latest edition of the Britannica puts the population of medieval Sarai (city) at 600,000. Smolensk was the largest city in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania when Lithuania was the largest state in Europe. Previously, the article estimated its medieval population at 200,000 but it has since been removed. Ditto for Kiev, which counted some 400 churches before 1200. -- Ghirla -трёп-  11:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The popluation for NY in the last chart is for the state, not the city. I think that may be the case for the other numbers for it. --Conquistador48

I have been told repeatedly that Edo was the largest city in the world from roughly 1650 on, for at least a century. I'm still trying to find sources to back me up on this, but I trust my professors on this... weird that Edo isn't even mentioned at all on the other page. LordAmeth 08:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of the data in this article are actually from Chandler's book revised in 1987, but the references are not united. Modelski's new book also provides other information on population of cities over 10,000 (till 1000 B.C.), or over 100,000 (till A.D. 1000).125.198.53.61 14:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The population estimates which appear in“The Making of Urban Europe 1000-1950” are actually borrowed from Chandler and Fox (1974). These should be substituted by the data from Chanler's 1987 revised book.

I have recently revised "List of largest cities throughout history," and I'm now planning to update this article citing data from G. Modelski (2003), T. Chandler (1987; till 1975), P. Bairoch (1988, only for Europe 800-1850), United Nations Urbanization Prospects (only after 1950), and some from Demographia, B. R. Mitchell, or V. Shower's books (only after 1750 or 1800). But the list I've made is already too vast... (Even list of top 10 cities consists of 200 or more cities.)61.203.20.254 16:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge removal
Someone suggested that we should merge this article with List of largest cities throughout history. But since no one has said anything since then, I'd say that the articles should not be merged. I have also removed the template. Oidia (talk) 01:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * it's the exact same scope. See WP:CFORK. They should be merged. If this has remained unaddressed, this just means nobody could be bothered so far, not that it shouldn't be done. dab (𒁳) 13:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well somebody do it then, it's been around for so long. Oidia (talk) 13:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Paris in the middle ages
1250 / 80 000    isn't it a low number. Consider please : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris Isidoros47 (talk) 13:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

NYC stats wildly inaccurate
Possible confusion betwen NYC and NY State? --135.196.27.80 (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That certainly seems to be the case. Well, either that, or it's counting the greater metropolitan area. In any case, the Wikipedia article for the City claims a current population of roughly 8.2 million. I'm going to go stick that number into the chart. We need a reliable, citable source for the city's population in 1950 and 2000. LordAmeth (talk) 01:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The number was likely referring to the metropolitan area (which, coincidentally, it about the same at the state population). It should be decided whether the populations for the 20th century should be for the city proper or the metropolitan area. As of right now, Los Angeles is shown to have a larger population than New York, which really isn't appropriate due to the fact that the metro population of Los Angeles is shown, but New York's is not. Melancholia i (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to update this article showing different estimates
It is quite useful to present different estimates based upon multiple sourses. For the population estimates of ancient Rome, there exists a conflict between "Great Rome" and "Little Rome" theorists.

I am planning to update this article using population estimates by Tertius Chandler, George Modelski, Paul Bairoch, Brian Mitchell and UN. I have summarized estimates and censuses concerning European cities here.Aurichalcum (talk) 02:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is my summarized table for cities in Africa and the World:

I have added some data for the world cities before 1000 B.C.Aurichalcum (talk) 18:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm creating a visualization of the population of all cites in the word from the dawn of human history to present. The spanning vertical cells below would have been VERY annoying. Could we just repeat the name of the location for each city? This will also preserve the ability to sort.
 * --futurebird (talk) 17:31, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

1999 to 1000 B.C.
Aurichalcum (talk) 18:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC) Aurichalcum (talk) 19:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

References and Notes
Aurichalcum (talk) 18:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)Aurichalcum (talk) 18:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

After 1000 B.C. (still only for Africa)
Abbreviations for references: Ba: Bairoch (1988), Ch: Chandler (1987), Mi: Mitchell (2003), Mo: Modelski (2003), UN: UN World Urbanization Prospects (2007)Aurichalcum (talk) 16:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC) Aurichalcum (talk) 17:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should limit the entries of cities in this article. The biggest top five cities at selected periods according to Chandler's and Modleski's books are as follows:


 * Austria: Vienna
 * Cambodia: Angkor
 * China: Anyi, Ao, Beijing, Bo, Chang'an/Xi'an, Erlitou, Guangzhou, Handan, Hangzhou, Haoqing, Kaifeng, Linzi, Luoyang, Nanjing, Qufu, Shang/Shangqiu, Shanghai, Shangxingdui, Tanis, Xiatu, Xintian, Yinxu
 * Cyprus: Kition
 * Egypt: Abydos, Alexandira, Avaris/P-Ramses, Elephantine, Fustat/Cairo, Heliopolis, Memphis, Thebes
 * France: Paris
 * Germay: Berlin
 * Greece: Akrotiri, Athens, Knossos
 * India: Agra, Delhi, Kalyan, Kanauji, Mohenjo-daro, Pataliputra/Patna, Rajagriha, Vijayanagar
 * Iran: Anshan, Ecbatana, Rayy/Tehran, Susa, Tabriz
 * Iraq: Adab, Akkad, Al Kufah, Antioch, Babylon, Baghdad, Basrah, Calah, Dur-Kurigalzu, Eridu, Isin, Girsu, Kesh, Kish, Lagash, Larak, Larsa, Nineveh, Nippur, Seleucia/Ctesiphon, Shuruppak, Suheri, Umma, Ur, Uruk
 * Italy: Agragas, Capua, Rome, Syracuse
 * Israel: Hazor, Jerusalem
 * Japan: Edo/Tokyo, Kamakura, Kyoto, Osaka
 * Mexico: Tenochtitlan/Mexico City
 * Morocco: Fez, Marrakech
 * Myanmar: Pagan
 * Portugal: Setubal
 * Russia: Moscow
 * Spain: Cordova
 * Syria: Damascus, Ebla, Mari, Nagar, Qatna, Ugarit, Urkesh
 * Thailand: Ayutthaya
 * Tunisia: Carthage
 * Turkey: Carchemish, Constantinople/Istanbul, Hattusah, Pergamum, Sapinuwa
 * Turkmenistan: Merv
 * Ukraine: Gelonus
 * United Kingdom: London
 * United States: Chicago, New York

Archaeological sites mentioned in Modelski's book are Catalhoyuk in Turkey, Jericho in Palestine, and Dobrovody, Maydanets and Talianki in Ukraine.

Other cities already listed in this article but below top 5 are:


 * 'Ain Ghazal: Maybe top (not cited in Chandler and Modelski)
 * Anuradhapura: 6th according to both Chandler and Modelski
 * Teotihuacna: 6th according to Chandler, 9th according to Modelski
 * Purusapura (Peshawar): 7th according to Chandler, 11th according to Modelski
 * Buenos Aires: 7th according to Chandler
 * Naples: 7th according to Chandler
 * Saint Petersburg: 7th according to Chandler, 8th according to Modelski
 * Sao Paulo: 7th according to Chandler
 * Harappa: 8th according to Modelski
 * Los Angeles: 8th according to Chandler
 * Shakhr-i Sokhta: 9th according to Modelski
 * Xianyang: 9th according to Modelski
 * Venice: 9th according to Chandler, 11th according to Modelski
 * Milan: 10th according to Modelski, 21th according to Chandler
 * Amsterdam: 11th according to Chandler

If entries are expanded to top ten cities, nearly 100 cities shall be added.

The followings cities are big cities in European or Southeast Asian history but not in the world history.


 * Madrid 22nd according to Chandler
 * Genoa: 23rd according to Chandler
 * Florence: less than 25th (listed in Chandler's book)
 * Bangkok: less than 25th (listed in Chandler's book)Aurichalcum (talk) 02:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Technically, cutting the cities would be removing information from the encyclopedia. If there were a way to shorten this list but keep the information elsewhere, that would be a much better solution. Someone the Person (talk) 22:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Native American cities
I added Caral in as an example from the Norte Chico civilization. Certainly pre-Columbus Native American cities are underrepresented here. -Phil5329 (talk) 03:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed on thatNativePride98 (talk) 20:00, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure?
Costantinople 200,000 (1500)... and 50 years later (1550) 660,000??? Are you sure?


 * Of course, there's no mistery in it: in 1453, before the turkish conquest, Constantinople was utterly decadent, and had just a few thousands of population; after the conquest, all the riches of the Ottoman Empire arrived to Qustantinyya (as turks called it) or Istambul (as we know it today), and the city became the capital of an enormous empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.149.65 (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

All Chandler citations should be removed

 * What I've been able to find out about Four Thousand Years of Urban Growth makes me think the author simply invented the Wikipedia figures out of thin air. In other books the same author has claimed that ancient Spaniards built Stonehenge, that Noah was Aeneas, and that Chinese writing was based on Moses' works.

Delete all stats cited to Chandler. Shii (tock) 04:09, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * For proof his statistics are fabricated, see his Hellenistic era Athens figure Shii (tock) 11:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 155,000 is not ridiculous as a guess. But Chandler is definitely out of date. You may also want to re-check several numbers I added in my innocence a few years ago from etext.org, a secondary source that took most of its numbers from Chandler; they're probably dubious as well. Someone the Person (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed etext.org has some outrageously inacurrant estimates so it mind as well be kept off as a source on Wikipedia NativePride98 (talk) 19:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Indian cities, German, Austrian cities?
Ahmedabad is here but where are Calcutta, Delhi and Mumbai? Frankfurt? Early years of Vienna or Berlin?Dogru144 (talk) 00:26, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

My Sourced edits were removed?
I rescently made some edits on Native American Cities but somebody deleted it all not sure who. I sourced each of my Edits 3 times. All those sources were not out dated, were not travel companies, or random people, I sourced actual history cites. Who removed my edits because they had no business to?NativePride98 (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with List of largest cities throughout history
I would recommend the merge of the two lists, keeping the table formats of the Historical urban community sizes article. Most of the contents is similar and redundant. Codrin.B (talk) 19:24, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * How would the merged data be organized? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Futurebird (talk • contribs) 17:27, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose, given the size of the two pages and the impracticality of a merge. The two pages address different questions; the Historical urban community sizes looks to categorize typical sizes of important cities, whereas the List of largest cities throughout history is focused on record-setting. I think that it is reasonable to keep both. Given that this proposal is stale, with no support over more than 2.5 years, I'll remove the merge templates. Klbrain (talk) 13:39, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Potosí
Potosí was the worlds 5th biggest city around 1600 but is completely missing in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grullab (talk • contribs) 17:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Can't find reference for city of Mozah and others...
Modelski was faculty at Washington University. He passed away in 2014. The university has taken down his webpage no now a large number of references are broken.

I could use some help finding the title of the page that these links point to. --futurebird (talk) 17:27, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Use |archive.org as a reference. Aryamanarora (talk) 15:58, 10 August 2015 (UTC)