Talk:History of British Columbia/Archive 3

Handling of French and Métis history in BC
Top scholar Jean Barman claimed last fall in a conference at SFU that, had it not been of these French Canadians&Metis in majority working at the lucrative HBC to the point that French was the day to day language, the Oregon treaty (1846) would have been negotiated in London at the 54th degree -vs- 49. In which case BC would be part of the USA.
 * that's an incredibly wild claim from Barman, but not surprising; "top scholar" is just more over-sell of Barman to me; that rationale has never been seen in any other major BC history.Skookum1 (talk) 21:24, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

IMO these francos did not all disappear in 1858 following the gold rush americans influx as the official narrative would like us to believe. But they have been whitewashed by history for the usual basic bigotry prevailing reasons. These people were afterall the first one to navigate through, to act as translators, to map and to trade. They were the first one to intermarry with the people of the Land, learn their customs, languages, etc. They were the first one to build schools, hospitals, orphanages (check Sister Joseph). The first one to unite workers in the lumber industry (the largest mill in the british empire!) and get excommunicated by the catholic church. The first ones to supply transport lines during various gold rushes. The first ones to mine. The first ones to farm in the lower mainland, etc. The first ones to be truly multicultural and polyglots. The first ones ("europeans") to experience cultural alienation. The first book ever published in BC was done by a Frenchman operating the first press. The first ones to worry about the environment and corruption of officials (check Joly de Lotbinière). The first linguist (check G Morrice). The first woman to sell a million records in North-America was a francophone woman aka Lucille Starr. The first MVP in the professional baseball league;-) The list goes on.

Perhaps this gaping hole in the current version should be identified as a desirable add-on. Perhaps controversial amongst many but none the less needed IMO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 19:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * LeCanaadHasBeen, while it's true the role of the Metis has been sidestepped after 1858, your claims are pretty wild and overblown; I'm here to add the following section but will return to contest your claims on each point; and as for being the first one to worry about corruption, Joly de Lotbinière was a johnny-come-lately - corruption was a hot issue even before the first newspapers were published, and remained hot through the '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s - Joly de Lotbinière didn't come along until 1900. I suggest you step back from your ethnic axe-grinding and look for sources for your claims; for most of them you won't find them; and it's interesting to me how you don't even consider the very prononunced role of Belgians and French-from-France from the gold rush onwards (one of the irregular companies that invaded the Fraser Canyon during its gold rush was headed by a "de Centras", it was called the Austrian Company but they were a combination of French, Belgian, and various Germans and others under French command.  I do want to do an article on BC's early French, but there's just not enough time for me at the moment.  Morice wasn't hte first linguist - Helmcken was; the first schools were opened by Belgians, not Quebeckers (the Oblates)...and BC's never had a professional major league baseball team, so I don't know where that was coming from about a baseball MVP.  And ask the natives about cultural alienation, likewise the Kanakas.  For anything else you've said, liek the first press, you should provide citations when you say stuff like that.  Main thing about an article is the need for a proper title - Francophone history in British Columbia might suffice but it "has issues" in Wiki-terms.Skookum1 (talk) 23:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Skookum1, "ethnic axe-grinding" seems somewhat far fetched as a commentary. Must I provide better citations on the matter? ;-) Content de te relire sur wikipedia anyhow. At least a few people care about this History. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 18:12, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Skookum1, the best reference available at this point would be http://fr.britishcolumbia.travel/fr-FR/AboutBC/CultureHistory/Children/British-Columbia_HistoryofFrenchSpeakingPeople.htm - but it was not translated to English on the BC Tourism web site, like if this history was not truely shared (no axe grinding ;-) ? I have asked the author if a translation was available. Let's see what happens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 19:30, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Is taht a government website? The English version is http://www.hellobc.com but maybe that's a subdirectory of it, never seen it before; WP:Translation may be able to help with that, though I can read it myself.  BTW Adrien Gabriel-Morice is already in Wikipedia, and for a while now I've wanted to do up bios on Ovid Allard and his son Jason, and various other HBC Metis/francophones of note.  List of French-derived placenames in British Columbia is also something I've had in mind ("of French origin" isn't quite right because some are transducements, like Francois Lake for Lac des francais (sorry no cedillas, I'm in a rush) or the Moyie River (from mouille, again sorry no accent, maybe on a later edit) or Malakwa (via Chinook Jargon from maringouin.Skookum1 (talk) 21:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Skookum1, yes it is a government web site and I have inquired with BC Tourism about why the english translation was not available


 * As for "the first ones to be multicultural and polyglot" if that's from that link, it's just plain wrong and totally ethnocentric.Skookum1 (talk) 21:08, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Skookum1, perhaps non-natives should have been stated, they certainly were there in numbers due their early european arrival status -vs- other groups; saying that it is just plain wrong and totally ethnocentric seems overdone once again ;-)


 * And which "largest mill in teh British Empire" do you mean? The Hastings Mill, or the one in Alberni (also owned by Capt. Stamp)?  Moodyville?Skookum1 (talk) 21:09, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Skookum1, Fraser Mills was massive; can't however quote production numbers
 * Yeah, of course you can't, that's all too clear, nor can you cite the claim that a strike at that mill was the first instance of organized labour etc. etc etc; that mill was not founded until 1889, long after many other mills French Canadian workers were not brought in until 1909, long after countless strikes and incidents of labour unrest in BC, so it COULDN'T have been "the first strike" and if, for a while, it was the largest mill in the British Empire, it was preceded by the Hastings Mill (1863) and Stamp's Mill (1864) in Port Alberni and Moodyville (1865-66). The first strike in BC was a coal miners strike at Fort Rupert, and there were strikes at the Hastings Mill and others long before Maillardville workers were brought out from Quebec.....Skookum1 (talk) 18:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


 * And I note, in that article, which yes is a BC government site, it describes John McLoughlin as if he were primarily francohpone, which just ain't the case; might as well add Gov Simpson, Mackenzie, Fraser, Thompson and other Scottish-ancestry fur company people who also were fully francophone; the article makes it sound also like the French did all the major developemnts in the province, as if they were "central" to the place's development, as if all the other contributing groups didn't exist (Scandinavians, Italians, Germans, Hawaiians); that's ethnocentricity. It also doesn't mention the Victoria Voltigeurs, which I found an odd omission.Skookum1 (talk) 21:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Skookum1, it remains that their contributions have been *totally* understated in relation to other *much smaller* groups (Scandinavians, Italians, Germans, Hawaiians); if "ethnocentricty" has to be invoked here, I would argue that the WASP establishment historians did a fine job too in regards to "Handling of French and Métis history in BC" - aka big fish eats small fish ;-) Jean-Baptiste McLoughlin was primarly a french canadian IMO (from the mother and the ground where he was raised) - if that is "ethnocentricity", perhaps some lightening up would be useful on this loaded word; may I point you to a Facebook BC historical francophone society that you might enjoy if you can get over some of the FB non-niceties (& "ethnocentricity") http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=436858815433
 * I'm gonna recommend, about the Hawaiians, that you find Tom Koppel's Kanaka and read it, also the little book by Barman that deals with the Joe Silvey family. The Kanakas were in BC before the French were, never in as great numbers, but very much present in the fur trade labour force, and theirs is a distinguished history.  But as of 1858 the Scandinavians, Italians, Germans and certain others were numbered in force and played pivotal roles in many areas of the provnce, and for a while the French and Belgians (who came up from California) outnumbered the ex-fur company francophones.  It's not a question of numbers; I'm not saying there shouldn't be a Francophone history in British Columbia and in fact for a long time I've wanted to start such a thing, though puzzling over the proper wiki-esque title..  You have to understand that instead of complaining about what others haven't written, you should undertake to write it yourself....but beware of WP:SOAP, WP:OR and WP:POV.  List of French-derived placenames in British Columbia I've also pondered (worded that way, so as to include Chinook Jargon adaptations from French and anglicized variants like Francois Lake (i.e. it had been Lac des francais - sorry I'm too lazy to add the cedillas right now).  If you want to start it in a sandbox (User talk:LeCanardHasBeen/Sandbox) and ask for help/input; there are others here, including people from the US side of the Pacific Northwest, who will help.  But it's not like snapping your fingers and saying zut, alors, zees maudit anglais swine have not addressed francophone history, tel bigots!.  Essentially the wiki principle about this is WP:Sofixit, and also WP:AGF.  There's also a need for Scandinavian history in British Columbia and German history in British Columbia, likewise for similar parallel articles to the grandly overwritten History of Chinese immigration to Canada one.  The Germans were such a dominant force in BC in the later 19th Century and up til WWI it was often debated if German should become an official language; in most libraries and in many used bookstores you'll find Strangers Entertained, a BC government publication from the 1971 Centennial year, which covers the European ethnicities in sometimes excruciating detail (and, oddly, barely touches on the Chinese and other Asians, very odd considering its publication date).  Can't remember what's in the French chapter there.  My main feeling on BC history, knowing it rather well, is that the current fashion for talking about it in terms of groups, e.g. "European" (meaning white), Chinese, native/FN, or any of the two and more dozen Euro-ethnic groups, is a fallacy; it was a history of individuals, not of ethnicities and ethnic factions; Alphonse Haultier, teh Lytton hotelier, and Cataline (Jean Caux) were both Francophones (well, Cataline was really a catalinophone...spoke his own language, pretty much, and it's debatable if he was catalan/provencal or francophone), but it's because of who they were as individuals that they're significant historical/cultural figures; same with Ovid Allard.  As for McLoughlin, that may be the presentation of him in French-written histories, and like most HBC staff he was francophone (multilingual, considering in BC most spoke at least Chinook Jargon, some also spoke Gaelic etc) - as with Douglas, Work, Finlayson, even McLean.  I'd be curious to see if anyone from WP:Oregon, where he is something like a George Washington figure, would consider him a francophone; but you behave like all this is being deliberately suppressed and have some resentment over it; again I'll point to WP:Sofixit and WP:AGF and suggest you should start something so that others can help you flesh it out; and again, I would have started it long ago but for too many fires to put out, and a multitude of interests, even just in history (I'm part French, too by the way, on my maternal grandfather's side), and also a life beyond wikipedia.  Don't complain because of others not having created an article on an important topic - just create it; though it's advisable to use a sandbox first, and consult on WP:CANTALK for the proper title convention to use.  Category:Francophones in the history of the Pacific Northwest might be worthwhile, to include McLoughlin.....but it would also include nearly all the Governors of the Russian American Company, along with Douglas and many others who were francophone but not by birth, though definitely by education and occupational requirements....Skookum1 (talk) 04:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Skookum1, I am certainly working toward adding such a section, reusing this government web site hopefully translated reference (better than current nothingness); I would guess it would be somewhat "ethnocentric" or "language-centric" but would certainly encompass beyond the "french-canadian" to include contributions from generally "french" speaking newcomers from France, Pays Basques, Belgium, Swiss and even the United States. Old stock continent born speakers are however the ones that went back to nature becoming Metis and eventually vanished into the mainstream. Many of those ended up south of 49 on the US reservation system denying their mixed-blood origins. Their numbers were much larger there. I am somewhat surprised that you did not see the need for a [Metis history in British Columbia]. I am not sure if the latter is easily decoupled from the francophone history". The level of integration with scottish and irish ancestors were high as you are well aware of, these two groups also having serious issues with the WASP power establishment, aka " maudit anglais swine have whitewashed our history to make themselves look good". — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 15:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Please sign your posts with four tildes ~ so Sinebot doesn't keep on signing for you.....and aside from the OR and NPOV and such pages I've already linked for you, you should also read WP:POINT....I dispute a lot of your assertions, such as "old stock continent born speakers that went back to nature becoming Metis and south of 49 on the Us reservation system denying their mixed-blood origins". That kind of thing needs citation - valid citation for, not hype-sites - and I know BC history a lot better than you do and both are fallacious and somewhat fanciful; yes, many early Europeans (from Europe) whether French or Norwegian or German married into native families/took native wives, but what you've said is an overgeneralization and with that cutesy "went back to nature"; I won't go on about the details but I'll just say you're wrong, you should read more history about BC, and not just that written in French, clearly ;-|. As for Metis and francohpone history being separable in BC, that's not easy to do at all in the pre-1858 period, not at all at all, and "Metis" in BC means a lot more than people of Franco-Cree ancestry; because of the official status of that word now it includes all halfbreeds, i.e. people with native ancestry, officially-affiliated to a Metis organization or not. So, though long referred to as a halfbreed until the new legislation took place, someone like Frank Gott, whose Euro-ancestry has a German - though potentially Belgian or French - surname (I've been unable to identify who his father Capt. Gott was, and there's a mystery to that as Frank was born in Lillooet in 1850, and whoever his father was he was a rare non-HBC'er in those times, and not mentioned at all in any records (French-Canadians were on-site mining gold at Lillooet when other miners showed up in 1858, though how long they'd been there no one is sure; people were too busy mining and surviving to keep records/journals....those of them who were literate). I know Kevin O'Toole personally, who's a status Metis, and he's decidedly not francophone and from what he told me about his family history the Metis part wasn't francophone either (it's his maternal side). You want an article on francophones in the fur era; but nearly all of them, other than teh Oblates and other clerics, were Metis; i.e. in its old sense, not the modern legal one. Who else were you thinking of? I mean Cataline is there, but ultimately, according to some sources, his background was Catalan (hence the name), and he was born, apparently, in Andorra, but he's post-1858 anyway (like Haultier and others). The attitude that francophones were forcibly assimilated, which is the cant that you're putting forth, completely belies the nature of the multi-ethnic tide that overtook BC from 1858 onwards, when English emerged as a lingua franca, parallel to the Chinook Jargon. The influential francophones within the HBC - including McLoughlin but also Allard and countless others - made no effort to entrench French and showed no interest in doing so, and had no issue with "assimiliation", either into native families or into the greater mutil-ethnic "anglophony". Anyway start your article, I'm of the opinion that you need to read a lot more history, and not rely on that BC tourism site (BC government sites are notoriously inaccurate about stuff, especially stuff from the Tourism Ministry), and I think your assertion that francophone and Metis history can and should be separated is wildly off-base an doesn't take into account the different context of "Metis" in BC vs what it meant on the Prairies. But beware of POV language, unsubstantied value judgments and interpretations (which would be OR and SYNTH) and don't write the article to thump your tub (WP:POINT and WP:SOAP). My guess for a title according to MOS/CANSTYLE guidelines is Francophone history in British Columbia but fly that by WP:CANTALK and see who says what; and if you insist on Metis history in British Columbia it's a given taht, on the one hand, it overlaps significantly with the francophone-history topic in the earlier period, and not very much at all in the post-1858 one. And again, rather than complaining that us maudits anglos have suppressed this, Wikipedia suppresses nothing; complaining that anglos have done nothing to present French history is a non sequitur: point to me French-language histories about BC (other than Fr. Morice) or any evidence that the francohpones here attempted to preserve themselves against the mulit-Euro anglophone tide from the gold rush onwards; or that Quebec or anyone else did anything to try and cultivate French identity/language in BC (they shunned Riel's call for Quebeckers to come West to populated the Prairies, and nobody out here made any similar call, which would have been ignored anyway). Blaming the English for what the French haven't bothered to do themselves is....something of a cliche, OK?Skookum1 (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Skookum1, don't think this is going to go anywhere unfortunately. Looks to me like you were actually the one asserting that francophone and metis history in BC should be separated, at least from the section title you actually proposed -vs- the heading I put forward. I think you are implying far more stuff about what I said than I ever imagined in the first place. I would say chill up from your high heels svp (no need to blame Quebec or BC Tourism web site for heaven's sake), it is just a wiki page and life goes on, good grief. In ending, I would refer you to Sharon Butala's insight (Lilac Moon 2005) on what it is to be a westerner: "Our stubborn refusal to recognize the French fact." cqfd See http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article/235930669-anglemort--the-place-of-french-in-canada-posttrudeau--opinion — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 18:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * "far more stuff ....than I ever imagined in the first place"....yeah, no doubt, and it's clear you don't know want to know anything that flies in the face of your prejudicial "Anglos have suppressed French history in BC", which is UTTER POV BULLSHIT. It's anything but the case, if you actually READ any British Columbia history, not just tirades about it from blogs like ViveLeCanada.  What you want is WP:SOAP as an article, and yet you clearly show no interest in writing that article yourself, and are demanding that someone else do something about it.  You don't want to learn about French history in BC, or write about it, you just want to hector about it.  And I'm not going to go run and look at things you think thumb your tub appropriately just because you snap your fingers over it; vivelecanada.ca is not a valid citation anyway (not WP:RS nor WP:VS, like most blogs) and is just somebody else grinding an old and not very well-built axe.  Why do you expect other Wikipedians - or anglos - to do what you haven't even tried to do yourself (other than to launch a whine about it as you did here - full of myths and half-facts no less).  Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and don't expect any article taht does get started on that subject to serve your bigoted and ethno-paranoia interests.Skookum1 (talk) 19:19, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * A "francophone"-only article would necessarily include the francophone Metis, but not confuse the matter with the extended meaning of "Metis" for non-francophone Metis who also figure in BC's history. Also the title Francophone history in British Columbia implies 1858-onwards, when the term "British Columbia" was coined; and most francophone Metis history west of the Rockies is in Washington and Oregon, so Francophone history in the Pacific Northwest is a more appropriate title anyway.  But bear in mind if you do start that article, that us maudits anglos are going to de-SOAP and de-POV it and remove any specious blog or other distorted-history content/cites.Skookum1 (talk) 19:41, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Skookum1, And freemacons, orangists &KKKs were really jolly good fellows with no hangup whatsoever. They never po'ed anyone. Just like you ;-) And early 1900s racial riots never happened too. Amen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 03:50, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You're engnaged in WP:SOAP about ethno-revenge, and also making the hilariously silly and somewhat obscene claim that what happened to the French in BC is equivalent to the actions of the KKK or the Anti-Oriental Riots or 1907 (which is I gather what you're referring to). yeah, sure the French were hanged and beaten and rounded up and had their houses and stores burned. We're covering that up, definitely, of course we are.  You're thumping an ugly tub, and it's based in hatred and resentment founded in ignorance.  It's really clear to me you don't read anything on BC history but diatribes saying the French were ignored, when really they wilfully assimilated LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, of dozens of background; nothing was done to them deliberately by way of cultural suppression; Governor Douglas' colonial troops/police on the Colony of Vancouver island were the Columbia Voltigeurs; their utility -and cost - ended when the Royal Engineers and Marines showed up - and most split for the goldfields "like everybody else".  I DO know about French history in BC, and know that nothing of the kind that you're talking about took place; it's nonsense and hateful, paranoid claptrap.  BC historiography, especially today, has made a point of covering all ethnocultural minorities in detail; there's excellent chapters in Strangers Entertained, a 1971 publication from the BC government, covering this, and any detailed history of the fur trade necessarily covers the history of the francophones as it covers all other employees, and there's clearly more detail in Father Morice (who you haven't read, have you? - despite trumpeting his existence, as if we'd ignored him, which is anything but the case).  Journalist/historian Stephen Hume had an extensive, detailed series of articles on the francohponie in BC, and another series on aboriginal and Metis wives (many of whom were of course francophone), and he's not the only author to write about that.  Also good stuff in the Akriggs, and if you dig around in teh British Columbia Historical Quarterly and the Journal of the Okanagan Historical Society and others, you'll find lots of material in papers and essays there.  There's also various material on Maillardville and also on the situation of French Canadian orchard workes in the Okanagan in more recent times. No riots, no beatings, no "get out Frenchie" cross-burnings, no lynchings.  So give it a rest OK, and either start reading BC history instead of condemning it for not satisfying your need to find prejudice that just didn't exist, particulary the nasty form of violent prejudice you'er equating it to.  I'm considering you a troll from here on, nothing to contribute, only a lot to complain about, and no knowledge behind any of it......Skookum1 (talk) 10:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Skookum1, Have indeed read Morice. You can add to this Barman, Watson, Jackson, Waite&Pappin, Foxcurran (south of 49), Moreau&Ricard&Co., de Garro, Pandosy/Rivière, Boire, Paré, some thesis at SFU and countless material on the Net (e.g. Dick Garneau). My first intervention had nothing to do with "troll". Not sure about what followed. I will however point out that you were the first one to bring up the topic of "ethnic axe-grinding"... I did not dump on the BC tourism web site either or said they were "maudits anglais". How many people have you had pissing contests with on wikipedia so far? Please chill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 16:03, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You just want to attack, you just want to accuse, you just want to complain that others haven't written things the way you want to hear them; you say you've read "Barman, Watson, Jackson, Waite&Pappin, Foxcurran (south of 49), Moreau&Ricard&Co., de Garro, Pandosy/Rivière, Boire, Paré, some thesis at SFU and countless material on the Net (e.g. Dick Garneau" - and Morice - and then shoot your mouth off about KKK and riots and compare me to same. Where in Barman - or Morice - or any of the others - does it say "francophone culture in BC was suppressed after the coming of others" where deoes it say "francophone culture in BC was suppresed before the coming of others", where does it say "francohpones were systematically excluded???  As for the French authors other than Morice - (Boire, Paré, Garneau, "some thesis at SFU", "Moreau&Ricard&Co." (apparently a publisher, not an author), you should be more specific.  And who the hell are they?  Quebec authors/journalists wriring about BC?  When, and on whose ticket? Do THEY compare anglo behaviour/historiography to the KKK as you have done??  Which are legitimate historians, which are just political hounds ranting on about how BC should have wound up French if only so many anglos and others hadn't moved there, yadayadayadayada.  And I had a look at the French wikipedia article parallel to this one, and, gee, none of those authors are listed there, there's no further content about French in BC than there is in this one, and evidently no interest from French Wikipedians.....ironically, there's quite a bit of interest from ANGLO Wikipedians, including a few stateside who know lots about the fur trade and its people there.  YOu're just around here slinging mud, then claiming it's being slung at you when it's pushed back in your face as a falsehood.  Oh, yeay, us big English meanies deliberately pushed aside the French, it was all planned, we imported the Americans and Germans and Chinese and Scnadinvians and Italians in 1858 just do that; then we beat them, burned their houses.....non-natives in pre-1858 BC, and in pre-1841 Oregon CountryTerritory, were indeed majority francophone; all 500 or 600 of them; "nothing was done to protect French culture" when 30,000 miners showed up from California because the French THEMSELVES did nothing to protect it; they were too busy mining, those of them that weren't running stores or, as with Allard, rising within the HBC ranks or working for the colonial government.  YOu can cite Quebec authors all you want; but if what they say is false (as it sounds like it is, or at least grossly blown out of proportion) and try and turn your own hostility towards anglos onto me as if it were my problem, but it won't get the article written, or more French content added here.  So 'xcuse me, I have to go light my torch and burn out theFrenchies in the next block, gotta keep them out of BC, like all other anglos before me....produce your citations, produce your cited, verifiable material, or just shut up OK?  Stand and deliver.  Stop the hair-picking and either contribute to Wikipedia, or stop criticizing those who do.Skookum1 (talk) 18:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Skookum1, Moreau, Boire, Paré and Garneau were all born in western Canada with not much to do with Québec. Boire&Garneau do not speak much french at all. Boire is in the process of publishing an *excellent* history of Maillardville that he posted on his website last year. Feu Tony Paré was commonly known as the Coquitlam city historian and "town-cryer". Moreau&Ricard (&GReene&Lapprand) covered Victoria history from a francophone standpoint. Dick Garneau has done an absolutely outstanding job tracing Métis history in the entire northwest (comparable to what Bruce Watson has recently published). His website is a gem. Foxcurran from Seattle focused on Métis settlements in Washington state and has submitted his manuscript in english to Les édition du Septentrion in Quebec City. I will simply say that scholars do not publish for peer reviews on topics that they are not directly or indirectly funded to publish on. Why does this always have to go back to Quebec? I have lived most of my life here, live mostly in english, most of my friends do not even speak french, etc. You make it sound like I am Pierre Vallière or author of "White niggers of North America". I don't understand all this negative stuff you are constantly venting out. Most people agrees nowadays that history has not always been fair toward small groups. I certainly stand by that amongst many others. Who is hair-picking and criticizing then? I will come back to this later this month and am hopeful that you will have chilled by then. This "just shut up OK" is unacceptable IMO. I remain committed in establishing a first article based on what these people at BC Tourism have put forward. It has been reviewed considerably and it is certainly far better than current nothingness or silly flaming wars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeCanardHasBeen (talk • contribs) 01:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

What's unacceptable is you comparing me, and "the suppression of French history" in BC, to the KKK and racial riots; and also the way you plunged in here, accusatorily, claiming that we - Wikipedians - were deliberately suppressing French history in BC, which is rubbish and insulting and not WP:AGF. And I daresay you won't find in this history of Boire and Garneau anything about the repression of French culture in Maillardville, where in fact it was sheltered and has survived and was not subject to violence or suppression of its history; you came in here slinging wildly about what hasn't been written about, rattling off a chain of grievances about waht hasn't been covered, and claiming that this was deliberate, either by us or by the many histories of BC out there that you say don't exist (but you clearly haven't read all that much, though obviously certain authors particular to your narrow focus you rattle off as if we should all know about them (or care). Either contribute to Wikipedia or stop whining because others haven't and mud-slinging about the KKK and racial riots and forced repression of French culture/history/identity as if it were some kind of obscene dirty secret....you complain my "just shut up" is not acceptable, but your behaviour from the start hasn't been acceptable; it's been accusation, complaint and bitching, not proposition, idea, suggestion, or just active work trying to add material to the article; but you had a POV tone from from the start, and continue to.....I'm really not in the mood for this anymore, it's pointless arguing with you as you seem so to relish doing; all your screaming and insulting behaviour has not added anything to the article, and has alienated one of teh authors/editors familiar with the material and sbuejct, which your own admission there's far more to than you wanted to get into, or however it was you put it when I gave example after example which confounded the claims of suppression and ill-treatment of the French you came here club-swinging with....I've been prepping to start an article on this topic for a while, now I have a bad taste in muy mouth about the subject, thanks to you, and while I might edit and monitor such an article for truth/correctiness and POV/SOAP, I'm in no mood to put the effort into writing it; which is a pity since I clearly know more about the breadth of the French experience in BC, particularly the early and gold rush periods, than you care to begin learning about.....Skookum1 (talk) 10:24, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Skookum1, please note that the fur trade was not mentioned in WP "History of the west coast of North America" article, only "French interests" having intention to "become the mistress of California". The fur trade was also barely mentionned whatsoever in this particular BC History article. And this in spite of WP best practices, scholars credentials, etc. "Suppression of history?" am I allowed to ask without being accused of "ethnic axe-grinding" and other flaming? Garneau certainly made a strong case of the suppression of History. So did Waite and so many others. You did put down Barman (&BC Tourism) big time BTW. On the positive side, I do note (unless I am wrong) that you did acknowledge that the francophone&métis aspect of BC history deserved better coverage. I would rather focus on area of possible convergence and simply ignore flaming onward. --LeCanardHasBeen (talk) 18:12, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Once again, you're bleating about articles without doing anything to improve them; the History of the west coast of North America was origianally "History of the west coast of the United States" and was expanded, and that tidbit about "the mistress of California" is important in the history of California; La Perouse's visit should be there.....and unless you want to quote waht Garneau says about the suppression of history, and you can take that by History of Oregon, Oregon Country and History of Washington if you want to fly it up the flag and see who shoots it down. Wikipedia is accretive and collaborative, you come in here slinging mud. And I have no intentions of working with you if yo'ure going to compare me to the KKK and race riots, or keep on with this "nobody else has written what I wanted therefore you're all guilty of what I'm accusing you of". Either make improvements to the articles in question, or stop complaining that others haven't. I'm certainly not going to bother, given your attitude and endless repetition of this "suppression" nonsense, which is POV garbage.Skookum1 (talk) 18:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)