Talk:History of Buddhism in India/Archive 1

Re:sources
--Tigeroo 09:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I would favour retaining Ambedekar's views in the decline section as he is perhaps the most notable reformer in the recent history of Buddhism in South Asia. The mention of the revivalist opinion is especially valuable when a precise quote is at hand, as is the case here.

Other sources that deal directly with the role of military force other means during the spread of Islam in South Asia are given below. Some of these deal directly with Buddhism.

1) Wink, Andre (July 2002) "Al-Hind, the Making of the Indo-Islamic World: Early Medieval India and the Expansion of Islam 7Th-11th Centuries (Al-Hind: The Making of the Indo-Islamic World)." Brill Academic Publishers. 

The temples, with their incumbent images, rather than being turned into mosques directly, most often appear to have been destroyed, after their portable wealth was taken, and then replaced with mosques or muslim shrines built from the rubble.

On the first discovery, temples and icons would immidiately be stripped of their valuable parts, gold or red gold, silver, precious stones, the eyes made of jewels picked out first. Temples were destroyed with nafta and fire (nafta wa-l-diram), and with the aid of elephants. The greatest statues, like the one at Somnath, which was almost five meters in height, were first mutilated by the sultan himself with a mace, and then destroyed -- like any temple -- by lighting fire around it so it would burst into pieces.

2) Eaton, Richard M. The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760. Berkeley: University of California Press,  c1993 1993. The oldest theory of Islamization in India, which I shall call the Religion of the Sword thesis, stresses the role of military force in the diffusion of Islam in India and elsewhere.

In the Begumpur mosque in Delhi (ca. 1343). Clues to the circumstances surrounding the construction (or restoration) of the mosque are found in its dedicatory inscription:


 * Zafar Khan, the lion of lions, has appeared
 * By conquering the towns of India in every expedition, and by restoring the decayed charitable institutions.
 * And he has destroyed the obdurate among infidels with his sword and spear, and lavished the treasures of his wealth in (helping) the miserable.

Zafar Khan’s claims to have destroyed “the obdurate among infidels” gains some credence from the mosque’s inscription tablet, itself carved from materials of old ruined Hindu temples, while the mutilated figures of Hindu deities are found in the stone used in the monument proper.

3) George F. Nafziger and Mark W. Walton(August 30, 2003). "Islam at War: A History" . Praeger Publishers (August 30, 2003). Aurangzeb reimposed on the newly ordained dhimmis the hated jiyza that his predecessor Akbar the Great has wisely abolished early in his reign. The ruler's aim was to curb the infidels and demonstrate the distinction between the Dar ul-Islam (the land of Islam) and the Dar ul-Harb (The land of warfare and infidels). With that decision he brought warfare to the Dar ul-Harb to make the distinction clear for all to behold.

Concurrent with the war on Hinduism, the muslim invaders of India waged war against the Buddhists.

4) Levy, Robert I. Mesocosm: Hinduism and the Organization of a Traditional Newar City in Nepal. Berkeley: University of California Press,  c1990 1990. It was, of course, Islam that was the particular variant of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic world revolution which made the first great iconoclastic invasion into South Asia, one of its furthest raids touching Bhaktapur itself in the fourteenth century.

5) Getting To Know Buddhism (Sunthorn Plamintr, Ph.D) With the Moslem invasion of Sind in 710 AD, and especially when they gained more control over India in the 11th and 12th centuries, Buddhism suffered a great loss at the hands of Moslem fanatics. Buddhist monks were killed by the thousands, people were forced en masse to embrace Islam, and Buddhist monasteries were destroyed.

I am of the opinion that the sources as they stand now in the article are just fine and the section can do without an expansion of the muslim invasion.

Regards,

Phillip Rosenthal 10:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes I am quite familiar with the works of Wink/ Eaton and numerous others. All of them do talk about looting, raiding, iconoclasm, jizya etc. circumstances varied by age and ruler. Yet they also add that it was limited to opponents encountered during war and not carried out over those who were already subjects. I agree with the issues, but none of them lay it down to the decline of Buddhism. Just go back and read the conclusions of those books if you want to verify. Infact they lay the spread of Islam to multiple factors such as a prolonged process over centuries due more to economic reasons of joining the global Islamic trade-network, syncretic prolestyzation of Sufi's, that it was generally an urban phenomenon etc. etc. Like you notice Eaton say the "oldest", he in-fact talks of three distinct theories before offering his own in that book. They all talk about a general detheoficization of the ruling regimes. All this is covered without getting into the "debate of the details" by the sentence "A continuing decline occurred after the fall of the Pala dynasty in the 12th century CE, continuing with the later destruction of monasteries by Muslim conquerors[12] and their attempts to convert the region to Islam.[13]" The Daniel Pipes sentence is wrong, because if stands then it is concommitant that other POV on the theories of Islamization also be also gotten into. I don't think we want to do this in this articl. Similary I wouldn't mind leaving in the other two sentence eithers but then they must also paint a bigger picture, because both the Maha Bodhi and Ambedkar laid a huge deal of grief on hinduism, the caste system and Brahmis in particular as well, and as reference [15] points out their views were based on political-social dynamics of the time. This is much more easily done in the revival section, though it could also works well as it is if their opinions on the decline were more comepletely mentioned. The very next section is about revivalists anyway.


 * Summary of my Intent: Generally I think right now only one theory of Islamization is being used to account for Islam's impact on the decline of Buddhism in this section. Instead I beleive that for the scope of this section it only requisite that for this article and section we only mention that Islamization was a factor and let the sub-article explore the details. I didn't really want to expand this section much in this article to address POV balancing issues that I see with it, but maybe a couple of sentences are in order. Ofcourse the other problem with this approach is also that none of this will be specific to the Buddhist experience.--Tigeroo 16:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * These sources seem quite good, and perhaps we should let them speak for themselves in this article. Arrow740 04:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have done some minor expansion using a few academic sources. Phillip Rosenthal 16:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Made a minor expansion myself with some context and moved your addition into the narrative flow.--Tigeroo 09:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Failing GA
I am removing this article from the GA candidates page for the following reasons:
 * Lead is too short. See WP:LEAD.
 * Inconsistent dating (mixture of Christian and secularized dating systems). The 12th century probably does not need a date suffix.
 * Poor formatting. The pictures leave large white spaces, and several of the subsections are very, very short. Many of the paragraphs should probably be combined for better flow. The terms being explained by bullet points should be highlighted.
 * Mahayana's and Vajrayana's See Also links need to be standardized.
 * Some of the text needs copyediting; there are spelling and punctuation errors, and some sentences are short and awkward.
 * Further sourcing needed for why Hinayana is controversial, S. N. Goenka's statement, the early history sections, etc.
 * There are POV problems with this page, for instance in the "decline of Buddhism" section, and I'm not surprised to find that the main article is currently under mediation. The conversation being held on this page is evidence of its current instability, which makes it ineligible for GA status until the POV problems can be sorted out.

Chubbles 05:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the very insightful review, I'll take steps to enforce those recommendations. Phillip Rosenthal 16:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Phillip Rosenthal
Checkuser has identified Phillip Rosenthal as a likely sockpuppet of Freedom skies. JFD 06:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Phillip Rosenthal has been permanently blocked as a sockpuppet. JFD 00:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy
There's a fair amount of suspicious material here: what I suspect is out-of-date scholarship or just legend. I've corrected a few points, but it could do with looking at by people with differentareas of expertise. Peter jackson 10:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Vajrayana section was somewhat degrading and uninformed. I changed the date from 7th to 4th century AD to conform to the main article on Vajrayana. Also the claim that Vajrayana was merely a mix of Buddhism and local popular practices was quite inaccurate. I corrected that to show how Vajrayana came from the forest meditation traditions (which are at least as equally valid and old as any monastic tradition). Furthermore, the remaining description of Vajrayana is still unsatisfactory and in need of attention. Dutaguna 01:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources for the term dharmic religions?
Where are the reliable sources that use the term dharmic religions in the context of this article? Dharmic religions is a now deleted obscure neologism and should not be used throughout Wikipedia. Andries 15:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I propose to use the alternative phrase Indian religions. The number of google scholar results for "Indian religions"+"Indian religion" is (45.600 + 84.200) while it is only (492+475) for "dharmic religions" +"dharmic religion". See Deletion_review/Log/2007_September_8. Andries 19:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. No rationale provided for move and need for move is not self-evident.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

History of Buddhism in India → Buddhism in India — 19:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.155.97 (talk • contribs)

Question Why do you think it should moved to Buddhism in India?--Breawycker (talk to me!) Review Me! 19:52, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Inappropriate Photograph
Buddhism is a religion which does not command, simply guides an individual on the path to righteousness. There is no 'God' to be worshipped in Buddhism. The idea of 'puja' is of Hinduism, where it is believed that worshipping an idol of what symbolises God will bring them peace. Why then is a picture inappropriately tagged to be of Buddhists performing puja at the Ellora caves when they are just sitting to acknowledge The Buddha's idea of Nirvana? Most Indian Buddhists will agree with me because we do not worship the Buddha. We simply revere him, and vow to try to come one more step closer to becoming better people, as suggested by the Buddha. Please consider this view and someone tag the photograph accordingly or simply change the picture. I'll wait of a few days and do it myself if necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amey ambade (talk • contribs) 09:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Is this some kinda of jokes?
"hindus continued to absorb Buddhist practices and teachings, such as Ahiṃsā and the renunciation of the material world."

Whoever wrote that should be ashamed!! Krishna in the gita talks about The "giving up material objects" and "Material temporary pleasures" so this statement above is nothing more then false claims!

I will be removing that passage as it is very offensive and a crude notion to say a older scriptures such as the gita has some how copied the young Buddhas methods, if im correct buddha came to india to learn, he did not read his own buddhist scriptures to be enlightened.02:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)82.38.160.13 (talk)Ved


 * No, probably not. Nice observation. And you are justified in removing this passage; it's unsourced. But the observation on Krishna is OR. I've undone several of your edits, since they were not neutral c.q. not based on sources. Best regards,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   04:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I am shocked by the observation that Krishna had something to do with Ahimsa or renunciation. You may observe that the story of Krishna in Mahabharata and the Bhagavadgita (ascribed to him) are separated by a fair amount of time. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Bhagavadgita is not a later interpolation added centuries after the story of Mahabharata was encoded. This is also the problem with the Puranas (e.g., the Bhagavata) which were constructed in layers between the second and the seventeenth centuries.
 * I believe that the indignant rejection of Buddhism's influence in modifying or adding new dimensions to Hinduism as it developed in the first millennium is a problem - it is not based on a realistic assessment of the state of the society after the introduction of Buddhism in India.
 * The least we can do to ensure a certain objective presentation of factual matter in Wiki is to not suggest changes based on a defense of an aggressive view of Hinduism being the fount of all wisdom and attacking other religions under the guise of restoration of truth. Jksuresh (talk) 18:27, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

not based on sources? You keep doing this out of spite and i've caught you out a few times now, i will be adding Buddhas characteristics involving his blue eyes and curly hair this week!
I added on this page buddhas description which is found on Wikipedia, i stated he had blue eyes which was true so why did you take that out when even Wikipedia details this on The buddha page?

Buddhas text is part of indian history and as this page is about buddhism in india, i think its fine for me to place his characteristics mentioned in his indian pali scriptures.82.38.160.13 (talk) 01:50, 11 February 2014 (UTC)Ved


 * @82.38.160.13: Please "avoid accusing others of harmful motives without clear evidence". See: good faith, Civility, No personal attacks. JimRenge (talk) 19:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

You have not answered the question
If i added to this page "Buddha characteristics" would it be removed, if so why?

This page talks about the history of Buddhism in India, We should be allowed and not suppressed on knowing what buddha looked like and what was "a Buddha stated characteristics", this neo-western controlled editing is just what the buddha hated!!

He hated the fact that the rich corrupted brahmins held information from the poor, thats why buddhism was created, it was to hand information OPENLY and publicly.

Children in school wish to draw images of the Buddha adding "a Buddhas characteristics", Blue eyes & curly hair so no excuse for not allowing this on this page82.38.160.13 (talk) 21:13, 13 February 2014 (UTC)Veda

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