Talk:History of French wine

Future development
One area that I would like to develop is more "modern day" items such as the Judgement of Paris and the effects of globalization of wine on the French wine industry. Just need to do some more research. AgneCheese/Wine 08:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Great work Agne27. Just browsing through the article, i came across the mentioning of the sparkling wine/Dom Perignon myth etc. I don't know if it's the proper place to argue over it, but I've read a piece on Champagne, and is mentioned that the monks were actually trying to get the wine to stop sparkle, as it was unhealthy for the bottles. In fact large parts of the cellars were destroyed bevause the bottles burst. It may be something for the champagne article rather than here - just thought I'd mention it. (The concept of a second fermentation can not be a 18 century or earlier invention, as fermentation as a process was not realized (used, but not understood) until much later. I believe Pasteur was a pioneer in that field. It's much more likely that the addition of sugar was a taste-regulation as the cold climate of champagne can not have produced very ripe wines). I'll look for the sources.--Nwinther (talk) 09:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * According to what I've read, fermentation was understood from a practical-technical point of view already in Dom P's age, in terms of e.g. temperature affecting it and fermentations getting stuck, which he tried to avoid. They just had no idea what caused it. Tomas e (talk) 13:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the cause was unknown (i.e. that the addition of sugar made a certain mix of ingredients ferment) the adding of sugar AFTER ended fermentation can hardly have been an attempt to start the second fermenta. More likely is the regulation of taste - a process quite known (the regulation of taste) in practically all foodstuffs today. But i'll try and look for the sources on my first statement (trying to avoid the bubbles). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nwinther (talk • contribs) 13:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Found one: http://www.vinforum.dk/vinensabc/frankrig/champagne/champagne2.shtml It's in danish, so you wouldn't understand it. A paragraph, loosly translated

Original: "Som nævnt ovenfor forsøgte Dom Pérignon på alle måder at undgå at få bobler i sin vin, hvilket skyldes, at hvidvin dyrket så nordligt som Champagne, under visse omstændigheder naturligt starter en 2. gæring, som frembringer bobler. Den seneste formodning er således, at det i virkeligheden var englænderne, der omkring 1660 udviklede metoder (tilsætning af gær og sukker) til at fremprovokere en 2. gæring i flasken med deraf følgende bobler. Franskmændene, herunder Dom Pérignon, begyndte først i årene umiddelbart før 1700 at mestre denne metode, hvilket til dels hang sammen med, at det franske glas var mere skrøbeligt end det engelske, og derfor gik i stykker under trykket."

Translation: "As mentioned above Dom Perignon attempted in every way to avoid getting bubbles in his wine, because white wine grown as far north as Champagne under certain circumstances begins a 2. fermentation naturally which produces bubbles. The latest assumption is, that in reality it was the english who, around 1660, developed methods (additions of yeast and sugar) to provoke a 2. fermentation in the bottle with the accompanying bubbles. The French, including Dom Perignon didn't begin to master this method until 1700 owing in part to the frailty of the French glass which was weakern than the English, and thus broke under the pressure".

- There are others that say the same, but they seem to get it from this article. I'll dig a little deeper.--Nwinther (talk) 14:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the note and kind words. My intent in the area of Dom Perignon for this article was to briefly mention the sparkling myth as a segway into highlighting some of his contributions (and by extension the influence of the Church on French wine). There is certainly more detail in the bio Dom Perignon (person) about what (presumably, according to the sources) actually happened in that regard. I agree that there should probably be more detail in the Champagne (wine) article about the debate on this topic. AgneCheese/Wine 23:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This article will be improved when it can incorporate some of the findiI don't have it.)--Wetman (talk) 05:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Other wine based drinks
I thought it odd to see no mention of things like Chartreuse (liqueur) or Bénédictine in the Christian history and then I noticed no mention of cognac at all. I think the article needs to touch on these wine-related drinks. I also think the wine lake comment should discuss the excess being turned into industrial alcohol. Rmhermen (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right. Those would be nice additions towards bring this article up to A-class. AgneCheese/Wine 03:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)