Talk:History of Iran/Archive 1

Link
A link to the pages on Aryans and the Andrnovo culture pages should be included in the bar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo--68.4.210.29 01:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Please add them at the bottom "see also" section.--Zereshk 05:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to propose two things that I would like feedback on to whoever wishes to help me:

1) That the ancient and post-Arab Iranian history sections need to be revitalized, organized into specific sections, and/or pretty much rewritten

There are two questions here:

Along what lines should these histories be organized --AND-- How should approach such a massive history and make it as complete and reliable as possible (integrating all of the "established" history of Iran)

2) That there should be further sections detailing things like cuisine (I have seen the current cuisine page) and linking major world events cross-culturally (Greek/Persian encounters, Greek/Roman encounters)

Also, on a side note...there is little evidence that suggests that Mossadegh was a "militant nationalist". I believe this is overly-agressive and unncessarily sharp language? Anyone agree/disagree?

Thanks.

-IR

Nuclear program history
Some history of Iran's nuclear development might be nice. Was it all bought from the US and Soviet Union? Kofannon 21:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We already have an extensive history report on Iran's nuclear program. It's not really a history thing to include here.--Zereshk 23:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Nature of the revolution
With regards to this bit of text:


 * The new government was extremely conservative. It nationalized industry and restored Islamic traditions in culture and law. Western influences were banned and the existing pro-West elite was quick to join the shah in exile. There were clashes between rival religious factions and brutal repression quickly became commonplace.

This needs to be augmented or amended to reflect the fact that the revolution in some cases introduced cultural and legal changes that had never existed before in Iran, even in medieval times. As well, the characterization of the regime as "extremely conservative" is a bit simplistic: the revolution introduced a theocratic government, but it also led to a significant flattening of the social hierarchy in Iranian history, which might be called "progressive". --Saforrest 21:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

2005-2006 US-Iran tensions
i updated this section a bit. Someone had inserted POV, unreferenced statements (e.g. claimed that Iran's nuclear program only existed since 2005, when in fact the nuclear program itself started under US pressure during the time of the last Shah), so i put in summaries of the existing wikipedia material which has already been NPOVed. The article United States-Iran relations article is getting quite long, but there was a VfD against a part of that page that had split off into a more natural division, so we have to live with the big long article there, at least for a while, and here just a short summary. Boud 23:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

We need a cleaner more detailed article
This article skips a lot through Iran History. As the main article for this subject we need more details, Images, and Cleaner more neutral point of view article. I'm doing what I can. I'll be gald to see more editors helping. --Arad 18:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Anon
Hello. Please do not put POV into the article. Thanks.Azerbaijani 20:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
Am I missing something here? I don't see the neutrality discussion for the Islamic Republic section. If there is no discussion there should be no tag. What is the problem? The Behnam 04:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Persia had no slaves, introduced currency to the world, and was the first global superpower? I think these things could use some serious scrutiny. - Anon

"The Persian Empire represented the world's first global superpower [12] [13], and was based on a model of tolerance and respect for other cultures and religions.[14][15]

I think is is perhaps POV. Indeed, in the following paragraph, it seems that Alexander is decried as a viscious conqueror whose legacy was quickly eclisped. While I don't dispute his reputation, I believe the Greek/Persian interaction was a little more complicated than that. Comments? jlr3001 02:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Arrival of Aryans from North?
I cant believe an Iranian article talks about Aryans "arriving from the north".....Anybody that studies Aryan history should know that they came from the region of INDIA/IRAN........There first text was the Vedas and it speaks of no invasion.....what a joke this is

For those of u who disagree with me, go online, and type in ARYAN INVASION THEORY......and then tell me im wrong......They came from India/Iran.......71.107.57.134 04:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Islamicization and Persianization
I tried to fix the grammar of this section, much of which seems to have been written by a non-native speaker. I tried as far as possible to keep the meaning the same, but in some cases, the meaning was ambiguous due to poor grammar, so I did the best I could. Still, this section should be reviewed by someone more knowledgeable than I in Persian History.

I also edited this section for length. I felt that many of the sentences, although technically true, did not actually add to the story told by this section, or repeated points made elsewhere. Is it really relevant to an article on Persia that Turks also resisted the Arabization of their culture? Is it really necessary to state that Islam does not support oppression of minorities? Also, I didn't understand why Arabs (presumably defined as native Arabic speakers with Arab culture) should resent being forced to use their own native Arabic language and the imposition of their own Arab culture.

I just couldn't understand the paragraph beginning with "According to R. Frye", and the reference given does not point to R. Frye's work. So I deleted the paragraph. Without access to the original source, I couldn't figure out why the ability of Transoxonia to adopt more egalitarian Islamic societies should lead to a Persian revival. I'm not trying to say that it did or didn't, just that someone else needs to address this issue, and put a source behind it.

Much of the Islamization in Iran article quoted from this section and should be updated. But I want to make sure that there is not too much fury at my edits before propagating them into other sections. David s graff 17:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Arab rule
IMHO (I'm neither Persian nor Arab), the section on Arab rule of persia (and most of the rest of the article) sounds like nationalist POV. Here's how it reads: -The Arabs came. -For 150 years, nothing happened -Persians restored home rule. It reads like the Arabs had far less cultural influence on the Persians than e.g. the Americans. Somehow, for unexplained reasons, during this period Persia adopted Islam and the Arabic alphabet, but, unique among the nations conquered by the Caliphate, did not adopt the Arabic language. I'm unqualified to address this obviously fascinating period, but I wish someone would fill in more. [Note: David s graff please sign your posts so that we know who writes what!]


 * Well, the script we had before arab occupatoin basically looked the same as the arabic script, so adopting the arabic script isnt really a big deal. also, it should be noted that the islamic culture of the time was Iranian, therefore, the arab invasions had the reverse affect, they affected arabs and other islamic people with iranian culture. that is why the abbasids themselves later became persianized.Khosrow II 02:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Not to be picky, but is this actually true? I did a little wikipeding on the history of the Persian and Arabic alphabets.  It seems that in Persia proper and also in Mesopotamia, people officially used the Persian language written in the Pahlavi script.  Upon the conquest, the official language became Arabic written in Arabic script (c.f., Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf).  From my reading, it seems that Persian gradually became written in Arabic script.  Both scripts, like almost all alphabets including the Roman one I am using now, were based on Semitic models, but they don't really look the same (Pahlavi is not cursive), and Pahlavi retained many of the ideograms of the older cuneiform script.  I don't think that someone who has only been trained to read Arabo-Persian script can read Pahlavi without additional study.  So I think I would stand behind the statement that a major cultural borrowing from the invasion was the Arabic alphabet.


 * Also, I think that one can't make a blanket statement "the islamic culture of the time was Iranian". What is culture?  Certainly religion and language are big parts of it.  Did Muslims in Syria, Egypt, and Arabia during the Abbasids write in Persian or Arabic?  Was their religion one originating in Arabia or Persia?  Your statement could be misinterpreted as implying that the  Arab conquest of Persia led to the adaptation of Zoroastrianism and the Persian language from India to the Atlantic.  So to say that "the islamic culture of the time was Iranian" is an oversimplification.  Better would be to say "Official culture in the core of the former Persian empire took on many Persian features during the Abbasids" or "The muslim conquest of Persia led to much cultural borrowing in both directions: the Abbasid rulers adopted many local customs and the Persian language, which aided the acceptance of the new religion by the local Persian people."

David s graff 14:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Significance of history of Iran
I moved Hegel and Frye's quotation to a separate part. Lead is not suitable place for such quotations.-- Sa.vakilian(t-c) 15:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The Islamic Republic
I moved this information to the talk page and replaced it with the information from Iran which is more reliable and NPOV.-- Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Supported by the Mujaheddin-e-Khalq, militant Iranian students seized the U.S. embassy in Tehran on November 4, 1979, holding 52 embassy employees hostage for a 444 days (see Iran hostage crisis). The Carter administration severed diplomatic relations and imposed economic sanctions on April 7, 1980 and later that month attempted a rescue. A commando mission was aborted on April 25 after mechanical problems grounded rescue helicopters and eight American troops were killed in a mid-air collision. On May 24 the International Court of Justice called for the hostages' release. Finally the hostages were released Jan 20 1981, by Agreement of the Carter Administration, see Algiers Accords Jan 19,1981.


 * ''On September 22, 1980 Iraq invaded Iran. Official U.S. policy sought to isolate Iran, and the U.S. and its allies supplied Iraq with weapons and technology to maintain a balance in the war. Iraq obtained most of its weaponry from the Soviets, China, and France. Members of the Reagan Administration covertly sold anti-tank missiles and spare parts to Iran in what became known as the Iran-Contra affair.

''
 * In 1981, the Mujaheddin-e-Khalq detonated bombs in the head office of the Islamic Republic Party and the Premier's office, killing 70 high-ranking Iranian officials, including Iranian President Mohammad Ali Rajai, Prime Minister Mohammad Javad Bahonar, and Chief Justice Ayatollah Mohammad Beheshti.

''
 * On the 14th of April, 1988, an American guided missile frigate, the Samuel B. Roberts, was damaged after Iran had mined parts of the Persian Gulf. On the 18th of April, the US responded in Operation Praying Mantis by attacking two Iranian oil platforms. In the ensuing battle, two Iranian warships and several armed speedboats were sunk.''


 * On July 3, 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 en route to UAE killing all 290 people on board.


 * After eight years of war with great losses on each side (including bombing of civilians and use of chemical weapons by Iraq)
 * Iran finally agreed to UN Security Council Resolution 598 in August 1988 to end the bloody war. Nonetheless, severe fighting continued into the 1990s and even to the present on a smaller scale  as Kurdish (nationalist and communist) forces fought the Iranian government. At times, large parts of the western Iran were without government control. 

Edits of United States and the Shah, Islamic Revolution and Islamic Republic sections
I've made a number of edits of these three sections in an effort to improve the sections in terms of grammar, readability and relevance. For example the Islamic Republic section had a very long paragraph on the American embassy in Iran hostage crisis but virtually nothing on the theocratic constitution of Iran and still has next to nothng on the economy of Iran under the Republic.

Editor CreazySuit (who seems to be Wikistalking me but has a legitimate question) has complained:


 * You did not provide an explanation as to why you removed the following sourced statement "While the student ringleaders had not asked for permission from Khomeini to seize the embassy, Khomeini nonetheless supported the embassy takeover after hearing of its success." which is from "Guests of the Ayatollah: The Iran Hostage Crisis: The First Battle in America's War with Militant Islam". ( by CreazySuit (talk) 01:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC), Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BoogaLouie")

So my explanation is that the sentence - Khomeini supported the embassy takeover after hearing of its success. - briefly covers the issue (If he supported it after hearing of it he isn't likely to have suppported it prior to hearing) and the whole issue and more is covered at the Iran hostage crisis article. --BoogaLouie (talk) 13:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation, I'll add a small clarification. --CreazySuit (talk) 15:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Significance pupose
It seems that the Significance section seems to be a section made to advertise Iranian history and boast it's importance. For this reason I'm going to delete it.Ardeshire Babakan (talk) 19:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 11:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Britannica" :
 * Encyclopædia Britannica23 January 2008
 * Encyclopædia Britannica.
 * "britannica" :
 * Encyclopaedia Britannica, "Seljuq", Online Edition, (LINK)
 * Encyclopaedia Britannica, "Seljuq", Online Edition, (LINK): "... Because the Turkish Seljuqs had no Islamic tradition or strong literary heritage of their own, they adopted the cultural language of their Persian instructors in Islam. Literary Persian thus spread to the whole of Iran, and the Arabic language disappeared in that country except in works of religious scholarship ..."

Image copyright problem with Image:Sculpture of Abu Muslim Khorasani.jpg
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 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --05:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Alexander the Great
People keep changing Alexander the Great to Alexander of Macedon, claiming that "Your addition of fake eurocentric greek-states (not country) made title of a non-existence character called alexander of republic of macedonia is also unacceptable". Alexander of Macedon does not redirects to Alexander the Great, but to a disambiguation page, leading to confusion. Almost everywhere else in wikipedia (and as far as I know in the English language and the western world) he is mentioned as Alexander the Great, so I believe that he should be mentioned here (and other pages about greater Iran and Persia) like that to avoid confusion by readers. Uirauna (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Explain why "people" are reverting your edit. Some of your edits show that you want to give the title the Great to someone you name and take it from others you don't name.--Xashaiar (talk) 22:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have already told you that my removal of Darius' 'Great' was accidental, and (again) I apologise for it, I meant no offense. Still Alexander III of Macedon is known everywhere as Alexander the Great, including in the article about him, where he is described as: "Alexander the Great (Greek: Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Μέγας or Μέγας Ἀλέξανδρος,[1] Mégas Aléxandros; 356 BC – 323 BC),[2] also known as Alexander III of Macedon". So we should use the same name here, to avoid confusion. If he deserves or not the title is not being discussed here, and if you would like to discuss it please go to the Alexander page, if it is decided there that no 'Great' should be used, then I'll agree on it. I will not discuss it with you anymore, this post is a request for my peers to decide. Uirauna (talk) 22:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes links with Alexander of Macedon should be changed to Alexander III of Macedon. That's correct according to this help page.--Xashaiar (talk) 22:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Islamic Republic
Am attempting to reorganize the Islamic_Republic section.

Some issues, such as the hostage crisis, foreign war aid to Iraq, have lots of text. Others, like the economy, international influence of the islamic revolution, have little or none. I will try to fix this. --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Article had been effectively vandalized to be inaccurate in one place. Here is a sentence that must have been maliciously altered: ''The Iranian government agreed to allow a democratic system of government in 1954 with American support and entered into agreement with an international consortium of foreign companies British (40% of shares), American (40%), French (6%), and Dutch (14%) companies to run the Iranian oil facilities for the next 25 years. The international consortium agreed to a fifty-fifty split of profits with Iran and would allow Iran to audit their accounts to confirm the consortium was reporting profits properly, and would allow Iran to have members on their board of directors.'' --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Very long caption
This caption has been re-added to a photo in the Islamic Republic section: ''Donald Rumsfeld meets Saddam Hussein on 19 December - 20 December 1983. Rumsfeld visited again on 24 March 1984, the day the UN reported that Iraq had used mustard gas and tabun nerve agent against Iranian troops. The NY Times reported from Baghdad on 29 March 1984, that "American diplomats pronounce themselves satisfied with Iraq and the U.S., and suggest that normal diplomatic ties have been established in all but name."[113]''

It's a verrrrry long caption and the same photo with an almost as long caption can be found in the Iran-Iraq War article. I think that is the place for this level of detail on the war, not in an article on the millenia of history of Iran.

Any objections if I shorten it to:   --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Iran/Iraq War - Chemical weapons
There is confusing language concerning the use of chemical weapons. It currently says that "Almost all relevant international agencies have confirmed that Saddam engaged in chemical warfare to blunt Iranian human wave attacks; these agencies unanimously confirmed that Iran never used chemical weapons during the war.[115][116][117][118." The sentence structure is so bad that I confused Iran with Iraq. I recommend changing it to: "Almost all relevant international agencies have confirmed that Iraq engaged in chemical warfare to blunt Iranian human wave attacks." I am removing the reference to Iran, because it doesn't seem that Iran was accused of using chemical weapons. If it has been, then it should be sourced. Something to the effect of "There are accusations from [name of group] that Iran used chemical weapons as well. Contary to this, [list groups/agencies] all refute this, saying that Iran never used chemical weapons during the war." The way it stands now is ambiguous to the eye, and creates a wierd mood. My best--199.219.129.1 (talk) 20:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Edits
Will the IP which keeps adding copy-and-pasted material from the Islam in Iran article please stop it. This does not follow Wikipedia policy on undue weight and is a violation of the GFDL licence regarding the use of Wikipedia material. --Folantin (talk) 20:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The editor should be made aware of WP:3RR, and then blocked if they insist on reverting without seeking debate, explaining themselves and building consensus first. --dab (𒁳) 15:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Mergefrom Persian Empire
Some people have recently blanked and redirected.

I think alot of that page that existed before the redirect/dab/article warring could be merged here.

76.66.197.30 (talk) 00:15, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Already discussed in details in Talk:Persian Empire and there's nothing useful to be merged with this page. If you want to participate in the discussion, discuss it there. Alefbe (talk) 01:57, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * User has launched an RfC. Page must therefore remain for others to find out about the issue at hand. If you want to make it a subpage, that'd be fine. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Reagan and the Hostage Crisis
Reagan DID negotiate the freeing of the hostages. It was Jimmy Carter's administration that tried, but it is Reagan's people that made an illegal deal with the Iranians to free them on inauguration day. Several administration officials were proven guilty: Oliver North, John Poindexter, to name a few. Their convictions were later overturned on technical grounds that North, by testifying to congress under immunity, may have violated his own 5th amendment rights.

What was the illegal deal I believe you are refering to the Iran-Contra deal by Col. North. I also note that you stated it was Reagan that did negotiate then state that it was Reagan's people. Not sure who it was? Oh yeah almost forgot the Hostages were freed weren't they!!! Michael 02/04/2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.113.210.118 (talk) 23:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Theory
In the history of Iran, it states:

As early as the 10th and 9th century BC Aryan tribes (ancestors of Modern Iranians) speaking Indo-Iranian languages arrived on the Iranian plateau from Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia.[17][18]

Although this is a widely accepted theory, aka Steppes Theory, it should be mentioned nevertheless, that it is a theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 03:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The dates of these Aryan ancestry theories also vary greatly...some are 1000BCE, some are 2000BCE, others are 3000BCE(Kaveh94 (talk) 02:37, 2 October 2010 (UTC))

Not only it's a theory, today most experts believe Aryans came from east and north east of Iran, from Bactria, Sogdia, and central asian steppes.

POV
although it is true that the abbassids became persianised, you have seriously understated the impact of the islamic takeover of persia by the muslims. I'm Iranian and take great pride in my national history, but this is an encyclopedia and not a web blog. Please fix the above request.


 * According to Bernard Lewis:

"'[Arab Muslims conquests] have been variously seen in Iran: by some as a blessing, the advent of the true faith, the end of the age of ignorance and heathenism; by others as a humiliating national defeat, the conquest and subjugation of the country by foreign invaders. Both perceptions are of course valid, depending on one's angle of vision... Iran was indeed Islamized, but it was not Arabized. Persians remained Persians. And after an interval of silence, Iran reemerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam, eventually adding a new element even to Islam itself. Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna...'" --Sa.vakilian 18:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm Iranian but I should confess whoever write "Iran after arrival of Islam" have low historic knowledge. During Abbasid caliphate we have two types of states "Estekfa"(governing by permision of caliphate) and "Estila" {capture the state by sword then governing by permision of caliphate). In first group we can find "Tahirid dynasty" and "Samanid dynasty" and in the second type we can find "Saffarid dynasty", "Ziyarid dynasty" and "Buwayhid dynasty". In both cases legitimacy of the governor depend on caliphate although caliphate might become so weak and couldn't disagree with them. In brief political independency hadn't gained until Safavids and this were not the result of nationalistic movement but religious movement by Turks.--Sa.vakilian 19:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I rewrote this part and removed the tag.-- Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Buwayids took over the Caliphate. You also need to remember that many of the Caliphs took Persian wifes. This measns that even before the Buwayids, the Caliph was no longer fully Arab.Kaveh94 (talk) 07:41, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Not true; Abbasid were arabs by ethnic an language
I read: " Richard Bulliet's "conversion curve" indicates that only about 10% of Iran converted to Islam during the relatively Arab-centric Umayyad period. Beginning in the Abassid period, with its mix of Persian as well as Arab rulers, the Muslim percentage of the population rose. As Persian Muslims consolidated their rule of the country, the Muslim population rose from approx. 40% in the mid 9th century to close to 100% by the end of 11th century.[45] Seyyed Hossein Nasr suggests that the rapid increase in conversion was aided by the Persian nationality of the rulersItalic text "

And I want to object to that because Abbasids were Arab dynasty and that's a given fact, they speak Arabic and from Arab ethnic origin except for Almamun who's mother was persian, you may say the persians enjoyed tolerance in Abbasids period unlike the ummayads period, and they were participating in administrative and cultural affairs, but they certainly didn't rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.158.2 (talk) 23:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

please find my 6 papers - these are of relevance to the history of iran
The Demise of the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus myths

I am publishing my sixth research paper directly online as it is an extension of my previous papers. Kindly read pages 4 to 18 as it contains a detailed discussion of the term ‘Aryan’. This paper shows why the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus theories are not tenable. http://www.scribd.com/doc/136268397/The-demise-of-the-Dravidian-Vedic-and-Paramunda-Indus-myths Methods to reconstruct the languages of the Harappans were presented in the present and previous papers. We hope other scholars take up the exercise of reconstructing the languages of the Indus Valley civilization! The older papers were written taking the assumptions of the 19th century school of Indology as a base and working backwards. These may appear to be outdated now (at the end of our very long journey). However, the fundamentals are still correct. Part one http://www.scribd.com/doc/27103044/Sujay-NPAP-Part-One Part Two very,very important! http://www.scribd.com/doc/27105677/Sujay-Npap-Part-Two (These comprise the complete and comprehensive solution to the Aryan problem)

Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC) Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC) Please find my collection of papers on literacy in Pre-Buddhist India Before mature phase of Indus valley civilization (before 2600 BC) - There are some potters marks but none qualify as full writing Indus valley civilization (2600 BC to 1900 BC) 1. The reconfirmation and reinforcement of the Indus script thesis (very logical and self explanatory paper)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46387240/Sujay-Indus-Script-Final-Version-Final-Final 2. The reintroduction of the lost manuscript hypothesis (the case for this thesis has obviously become much stronger in the recent past)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/111707419/Sujay-Indus-Reintroducing-Lost-Manuscript-Hypothesis Post-Harappan India (1600 BC to 600 BC) 1. Literacy in post-Harappan india (obviously literacy in post-Harappan India existed in certain pockets & were limited to very small sections of society- alphabetic scripts were brought from West Asia and the Indus script also continued – this a very logical and self-explanatory paper and anyone can cross-verify the conclusions) http://www.scribd.com/doc/127306265/Sujay-Post-Harappan-Literacy-and-origin-of-Brahmi Sujay Rao Mandavilli 182.72.239.115 (talk) 16:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

New discussion. Please read!
I have been thinking about doing this for a long time. I have been thinking of creating a full fledged article of Early Modern Iran. Now follow me on this part! I was not planning of merging any of the articles listed in that section, in fact I was actually going to have sections titled "Early Modern Iran under the Safavid Dynasty" OR "Third Persian Empire under the Safavid Dynasty". Those were just examples I put there. Now, I will have the article titled "Third Persian Empire" with "Early Modern Persia" being a redirect. the articles sections will be titled "Third Persian Empire under the Safavid Dynasty", "Third Persian Empire under the Afsharid Dynasty", "Third Persian Empire under the Zand Dynasty" and "Third Persian Empire under the Qajar Dynasty" with the final section being "Fall and legacy". Each of those sections will contain links to the main articles of those dynasties. Now, if you all think for one second that I am trolling or not doing something useful, then you all got another thing coming! And if you all decide to not WP:AFG in me then you all will regret it! I am not threatening anyone when saying that, but you all will suffer a major loss if you all do not assume any good faith in me, close this discussion and decide to have me blocked. How? Let me just point out to you all that I have created articles of my own. Ones that are completely irrelevent to history of sovreign states such as Iran. I am currently making articles on lighthouses in the Netherlands and a painting of some naked lady. So do not come off rude. That is the least I ask of you all if you guys decide to comment on this thread. Regards. Keeby101 (talk) 01:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Your writing style seems defensive, but I see no reason for that. Your chosen topic of Early Modern Iran certainly has been the subject of interest for a number of scholars and authors, so it looks like a good one. I wish you luck. Binksternet (talk) 03:22, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Why would you want to title those articles as "Third Persian Empire"? As for an article detailing a particular period, currently there do not seem to be any general articles along those lines, with the status quo at the moment appears to be focused on individual articles for each dynasty. I don't know what, if any, standards has for how to organize and build history articles of this nature, but it is good that you are discussing before going forward with any new articles, because you don't want to have to put in a ton of work only to find the article(s) nominated for deletion or merging. If there is a consensus for this, it would help shorten the length of this article and move much details to their respective main articles on each period. Laval (talk) 05:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No thanks. See WP:CONTENTFORK. There is no need for such an article to exist when we already have pages on the individual dynasties. "Early Modern Iran" is basically the Safavid era. The title "Third Persian Empire" is wrong as this is rarely used and, if it is, may also refer to the Sassanid Empire. Why would the page stop with the Qajar dynasty anyway? The Qajars gave way to the Pahlavis and the Pahlavis to the Islamic Republic. There is just as much continuity between those eras as there is between the Safavids and Afsharids. --Folantin (talk) 07:48, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with Folantin. This is the "same animal but with a different name"(ie. combining Safavid, Afsharids nonsense) which now will encompass the Qajar dynasty. Keeby tried the same nonsense on the Byzantine Empire talk page. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Not trolling here when I say this, but seeing as there are 3 comments on this that have 3 different viewpoints. 1 that supports, 1 that is neutral and 1 that opposes. How about everyone takes a vote on this. Yes if you support. No if you oppose. Neutral if you have no opinion on the matter and think that this could go both ways. Sound good? Cheers! :D Keeby101 (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * These discussions don't work by simple voting. --Folantin (talk) 17:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Then how should we decide this? Keeby101 (talk) 18:45, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Umm..Kansas Bear? I specifically said that I am not merging the articles if I do this, but creating an article of my own with sections that would have links to the articles. This is very different from the proposal I made on the Byzantine Empire talk page. Just to let you know. Personally I think this should be how it is done. To everyone here, go to my Sandbox and you will see what it would look like if a consensus is reached on this. Regards. Keeby101 (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Folantin is correct in that there is no "voting" per se on Wikipedia, but rather attempts to reach consensus. What a lot of people view as "voting", at Articles for Deletion, for example, is not actually voting, but a discussion aimed at reaching consensus. For instance, at the moment there is no consensus to move ahead with your proposal, especially considering the confusion regarding the naming of the articles, e.g. "Third" Persian Empire. Laval (talk) 01:29, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem with this business of "Third" Persian Empire is that it appears to be original research. As another person related here, that could just as easily refer to the Sassanid Empire, unless there is some academic standard that I don't know about. Also, if there is opposition to your proposal, you should relay exactly why you wish to do whatever it is that you are proposing, using as many legitimate references as possible to justify your proposed actions. Laval (talk) 01:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

There is a standard that you do not know about. Actually the First Persian Empire is the Achaemenid Empire and the Second Persian Empire is the Sassanid Empire. In case if anyone is wondering, NO the Parthian Empire was not the Second Persian Empire. The Parthians are not Persians. Therefore the Second Persian Empire was the Sassanid Empire and the Third Persian Empire was Early Modern Iran that consisted of 4 dynasties starting with the Safavid Dynasty. Go to my sandbox and you will see what this article would look like. Trust me, if you guys let me create this article it will be awesome! I promise you that much! Cheers! Keeby101 (talk) 03:57, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "Parthians are not Persians". Neither are the Safavids, Afsharids or Qajars! --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:28, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Keeby, you really need to read WP:CONTENTFORK. We don't have multiple unnecessary articles on the same subject. I don't see any reason why an article which would effectively be "History of Iran 1501-1979" needs to exist. What would your page contribute that's not already present in the "History of Iran", the articles on the various dynasties and the articles on the various shahs? --Folantin (talk) 08:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Given what you just explained to me. Are you saying that these are all forks as well? : History of Russia (1796–1855) History of the People's Republic of China (1949–76) History of the United States (1789–1849). Btw, I understand what you are saying. I hear you loud and clear, but I have to correct on thing that you said. My article was going to be Early Modern Persia or Third Persian Empire that would cover Iran's history from 1501-1920. Also, Kansas Bear the Safavids ruled the first native dynasty since the Sasanians. I understand where you are coming from Folantin and I understand exactly what you are saying, but before you fully make up you mind about this, you should take a look at the links I posted. Regards. Keeby101 (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No, you need to make a case why this article should exist. History of Iran (1501-1736) is covered by the Safavid dynasty page; History of Iran in the later 18th century by the Afsharid and Zand dynasty pages; History of Iran (1785-1925) by the Qajar dynasty page; History of Iran (1925-1979) by the Pahlavi dynasty page. This is the way Encyclopaedia Iranica deals with those eras. The same goes for the Cambridge History of Iran. --Folantin (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * More The article you are proposing is the reverse of the articles you linked. Those articles deal with short periods of history (ranging from about 30 to 60 years) in much greater detail, where there would be no room for such detail in the mother articles. On the other hand, you are proposing the creation of a super-article which would weld about four centuries together. This is on a par with your attempt to weld the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empire articles into one page. --Folantin (talk) 17:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

It looks like it's on par with that for now. But again I say, take a look at my sandbox please and you will see that it truly is not the same as the previous proposal. I swear to you it is not the same at all. It will be really good. Regards! :D Keeby101 (talk) 18:07, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "It looks like it's on par with that for now". What does that mean? I've looked at your sandbox. It just seems like bits of existing articles badly cobbled together. Why was this so-called "Third Persian Empire" disestablished in 1925? And established 1301? Nothing here makes sense. --Folantin (talk) 19:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Correction! Established in 1501 and disestablished in 1925. Why? Because the "Third Persian Empire" was the last imperial empire Persia had. The Pahlavi's were not imperial, in fact they were a constitutional monarchy with the prime ministers having most if not all of the power just like the modern day U.K. It was because the constitutional monarchy became so loose and westernized due to the influence of the U.S. that the Iatollah overthrew the figurehead monarchy in 1979. Before 1925, the monarchs were not figureheads and were completely imperial and still wanted to expand the territory of Iran whereas the Pahlavi's had no interest in gaining any territory at all. With that being said, the Third Persian Empire was an empire that consisted of the last imperial dynasties that still were interested in gaining territory. Now as for my sandbox, yes I admit it looks like a bunch of articles cobbled together for now, but I am fixing that as we speak. 4 hours from now it will be complete and it will look like what it is meant to be; An article about the Third and Final Persian Empire that underwent specifically 4 dynasties ending with the Qajars. There will be links to the main articles within the sections that talk about those specific dynasties. Regards Keeby101 (talk) 21:36, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Alright everyone! I improved it! I have finished it for the most part except for the Society and Culture, Religion, Economy and Military sections of the sandbox article. Anyway, here it is: User:Keeby101/sandbox. Pretty awesome so far eh? If this is to be made into an actual article then it would really be awesome especially if you all were to contribute to it! Cheers! :D Keeby101 (talk) 05:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The Pahlavis were Shahs of Iran. That makes them imperial. Their rule was autocratic and is described as such in The Cambridge History of Iran: the two chapters on Pahlavi rule are entitled "The Pahlavi Autocracy: Riza Shah 1921-1941" and "The Pahlavi Autocracy: Muhammad Riza Shah 1941-1979". If you seriously think their prime ministers held more power than the Pahlavi shahs, you must be delusional. "Imperial Iran" ended in 1979. --Folantin (talk) 07:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * As predicted, your article (still under the heading "Third Persian Empire") is nothing more than a compilation of bits from badly digested and poorly understood Wikipedia articles. For instance, you've managed to create a section on the Safavids without mentioning the single most notable Safavid monarch. Why are you wasting your and everybody else's time on this pointless and inept content fork? --Folantin (talk) 08:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned references in History of Iran
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of Iran's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Farrokh 03": From Iran–Iraq War:  From Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:06, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The 1808 map is questionable.
Throughout the 19th century Khorasan/Afghanistan including Herat was independent of Iran. There arent even any signs of affiliation with Persia during this time in history. The extents of Iran shown in the map is questionable in my opinion, while the independent regions (mostly under no central control) are not shown independent at all. This was the time Russia and Britain were jousting for control over this region (with no interference from Iran) and eventually overthrew the non-Pashtun regions of Afghanistan through Abdur Rehman.


 * The map is clearly linked to the University of Texas. There is no way it can be questionable. The link is provided below the image on the image page directly to UT Austin:.


 * Also, 1808 was a bit before all the colonialist squabbling that you mention. For example, it was in 1825 that the Qajar Šajâ'-al-Saltana was the Amir of Herat. The British were certainly increasingly becoming involved. But it wasnt until the "Paris Treaty" that western Afghanistan finally was annexed for good by Britain. Same for the Russians. The Akhal Treaty for example came in the late 1800s.


 * Furthermore, one cannot consider khanates as independent regions. Semi-independent perhaps. One cannot consider sporadic uprisings or unrests as criterion of independnece either, since such uprisings were well observable even in the capital Tehran (e.g. the constitutional revolution). Persia has always operated thru vassal, satrap, khanate systems of government, because it was so big. Nevertheless we do know that the Khanates of central Asia were allied with the Qajars, because we have their official correspondences that remain today.--Zereshk 04:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply. I should dig deeper into the history of Afghanistan during this period. At least the Hazaras were quite independent (unknown to what extent) after the Mongols were expelled from Persia around 1550. The Hazarajat region goes between Herat, Mazar, Kabul and Kandahar with the population becoming scarcer around northwest and southwest. Some of this region is shown in the green area (Cant see) while most of it is put into Persia. We know Temur conquered the region and Babar had minor wars with the kingdoms in Hazarajat (Persia was not involved). The description of Pashtuns and Hazaras by the British in the 19th century do not indicate any vassalage at all, and Persia was much less involved in the wars between its supposed vassals and others, nor were taxes collected there (I'm talking about 18th and 19 century, east of Herat). Correspondence is possible with the modern Tajik people and the Sayyeds, but neither held power in Pashtun and Hazarajat regions at the time.


 * I think the geopolitics of the region in the 19th century was quite complex. So it is utterly impossible to make an absolute claim one way or the other. There are so many factors and issues involved that one can consider.--Zereshk 03:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In that case it should be marked as "Uncertain affiliation" rather than as a part of Persia. If it is unsure and impossible to to claim one way or the other, then why is the claim made that it's part of Persia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zathaghil (talk • contribs) 20:32, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Would anyone like to help reach a consensus on this: Talk:Sasanian_Empire
Not too long ago, I put in a request to the Map Workshop Team to make a new and more accurate map of the Sasanian Empire! I started an RfC discussion on the Sasanian Empire talk page as well. That being said, you all are invited to comment and help reach a consensus on the matter. Cheers! :D Keeby101 (talk) 09:01, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

reference of Diakonoff
I do not know who XXXY syndrome is, and I am not interested in any kind of sock puppeting, and I am not using any kind of proxy (I do not even know what it is). I am just using my own pc in my own house. And here is the exact link of the source where I have found Diakonoff's citation: http://www.federatio.org/joes/EurasianStudies_0309.pdf (look at page 51)
 * Edit the articles with your own IP. And read the No open proxies policy. XXXY syndrome (talk) 15:30, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I searched for my own IP and this is what I got: 2A02:908:E620:FD80:7C87:7E3A:30CC:9CCE. But I do not understand why my IP changed from 2a02:908:e620:fd80:3085:877d:4abb:3d9d to the current one? Where can I let my IP get checked, to be sure that it is no proxy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:E620:FD80:7C87:7E3A:30CC:9CCE (talk) 16:00, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Periods
Ethnic relations of the Timurids still unlear so just separate the Ilkhanate and Timurids. Talk:Timur - Polaer (talk) 12:17, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Relevant section for anchor for Ancient Persia
We have a couple of incoming redirects to "History of Iran#Ancient_Persia". Could someone who knows where in this article it would be best to anchor for this please do so at the relevant section? If you've not done it before, one way you can do it is using. Thanks. Banak (talk) 23:26, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:30, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Safavid Empire 1501 1722 AD.png

"History of Iran" series
As the person that wrote the article on the Muzaffarids, I don't believe it belongs in the "History of Iran" bar to the right of the article. The Muzaffarids, while controlling a good chunk of Persian territory during the 14th century, were only one in a handful of regional states in Persia at the time, a handful that includes the Jalayirids, Chobanids, Injuids, Kartids, and Sarbadars. I have been working on the Chobanids, and am going to start on the Injuids and Kartids soon. Since these all controlled parts of Persia, I see no reason why the Muzaffarids should be singled out.

ro4444 9:20 PM, 20 June 2005 (EST)

Just because "Muzzafardis" appears on the Iran bar doesnt mean it cannot appear on, say, the Iraq history bar (if there is one). Youre free to make an Iraqi history bar, and put it on there as well.

However, The Mozaffarian (Muzaffarid in English) were undeniably part of Iran's history. Therefore they should appear on the bar. Your claim would in fact apply to almost every dynasty of Iran. The Safavids were not even Persian. The Seljuks were Turkic. The Sassanids did not speak Persian either. Neither did the Parthians or the Achaemenids. Maybe we should then put the Parthians on the Turkemenistan history bar instead? Why are the Timurids considered Iranian? Werent they from outside the borders of Persia? But then, his very name is Persian: "Teimoor e Lang" (corrupted in English to Tamerlane). The Mozaffarian were no more non-Iranian than the Safavids. see the point?--Zereshk 10:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My issue with the Muzaffarids appearing on the History of Iran bar is not that the family was not originally Persian, but that they were not the masters of Persia. Most of the kingdoms or empires on the bar were THE dominant controller of Persia at one time or another. The Timurids are on there not because they were Persian, but because they dominated most of Persia. The Muzaffarids, on the other hand, cannot brag this achievement. At their height, they were the masters of central Persia only. That is why I feel that they should not belong there, because they did not DEFINE most or all of Persian history during that era.

ro4444 2:05 PM, 21 June 2005 (EST)

After looking at some of the other dynasties on the bar (such as the Ziyarids), I have come to think that maybe they do belong there. However at the same time, what of the other dynasties that ruled Persia at the time? The Kartids of Khurasan, as well as the Sarbadars of western Khurasan and the Chobanids of Persian Azarbaijan, should be included. Perhaps even the Jalayirids, although their rule centered around Iraq.

ro4444 2:09 PM, 21 June 2005 (EST)

We should have a page about The Sarbedaran, I agree. But these were even less prominent than The Mozaffarian.--Zereshk 09:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey would somebody please pay attention to some of the outrageous entries under the subtitle "islamic republic"? For example, Iran being invaded by "yo mamma" in Sept. of 2008, and lower down, "steve" being the speaker of the house ....record 22' of snow falling etc....What is going on? Sept. 16th, 2005 2.45 pm (EST)

Dear friends, it must be stated that Iran isn't Persian nor is it the "land of the Persians". The reason why the Safavids are included in the Iranian history bar is because they were Iranian, their ethnicity was Kurdish-Azeri, both Iranian ethnicities. The reason why the Seljuks are included is because they became "Iranianized", they adopted the Iranian culture and many of the Iranian languages. It is wrong to say that the Mozaffarians were not Iranian, they were of Iranian origin and ruled parts of Iran and Greater Iran. The reason why so many Empires such as the Scythians, Sarmatians and Khwarezm, just to name a few, are included in the History of Iran because like the introduction states that the history of Iran extends to far extents beyond Modern-Day Iran's borders, it is known as Greater Iran. To further correct Zereshk, the Parthians were Iranians. They were Zoroastrian, they spoke the Iranian Parthian language and practiced Iranian culture. To summarize my point, Iranian isn't just a nationality and not being Persian doesn't mean you are not Iranian as Persians were and are just one of the many Iranian ethnicities. Doorood bar baradarane Irooni az Azerbaijan, khoda negahdar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Migboy123 (talk • contribs) 08:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Invasion of Iran in I941 While it is true that the land route through Iran served as a vital route of supplies for the allies in later 1942 and early 1943 onwards, this was not the main reason for the operation. (Neither was the German contingent in the country). The main reason was the creation of a defensive buffer zone against the advancing German armies (in late 1941) and as a resurrection of the 1920's partition of the country into spheres of influence by the Soviet Union and Britain. I will also amend the “Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran” entry.

Destruction under the Mongols
"A large number of people, particularly males, were killed; between 1220 and 1258, 90% of the total population of Iran may have been killed as a result of mass extermination and famine."

we really need more sources that agrees with this sentence, if there was then it should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WeWuzPhoenicians (talk • contribs) 04:27, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

There are primary and secondary sources which prove of this statement and it is also a situation of deductive reasoning. Why do I say it is a situation of deductive reasoning? Because it was well-known that Iranian peoples were indigenous and inhabited much of Central Asia but suddenly disappeared and were replaced by the Turkic peoples which inhabit Central Asia now. We know that in around 500BC, the amount of Iranian peoples living during that era was between 20-35 million, there was a significant drop in numbers after the Mongol invasion. The information given for the destruction that took place specifies the cities affected, nearly all of which (except Esfahan) were located in Central Asia. There are plenty of sources but also deductive reasoning must be used in this case. Also, when it is referring to "Iran", it's not referring to what we know as the geographic region of Iran or the Iranian plateay but rather the regions Iranians once inhabited, aka the regions of Greater Iran. Migboy123 (talk) 09:45, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose to merge Persian Empire into History of Iran. I think that the content in the Persian Empire article can easily be explained in the context of History of Iran, and the History of Iran article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Persian Empire will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. Whymant (talk) 21:45, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. Also after the Talk:Afsharid_dynasty all empires will have their own page, so this can be easily merged with the History of Iran. --Ecomt (talk) 08:03, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support a redirect of Persian Empire to History of Iran. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:42, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, but I think it would be better to redirect to Achaemenid Empire, the most common usage of "Persian Empire". Other uses of "Persian Empire" are pretty sparse in sources; the Sasanian Empire is often called the Neo-Persian Empire, not the Persian Empire. -- Jules (Mrjulesd) 17:38, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support, merge to History of Iran but redirect to Achaemenid Empire, as the most common usage. --Delasse (talk) 10:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Chronological confusion
If "The earliest archaeological artifacts in Iran were found in the Kashafrud and Ganj Par sites that are thought to date back to 10,000 years ago in the Middle Paleolithic, - all further sentences are nonsense, given the much early disappearance of the Neanderthals.2A02:8108:9640:AC3:2CDD:23C8:5891:9BF (talk) 15:21, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Mohammad-reza-shah.jpg

What's the problem?
Why did you delete the gif I left in the article? Mr.ebrahim zadeh (talk) 20:22, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Change the dating system
Given that this is an article on ancient IRANIAN history and not western history or Christian history, the dating format used should be BCE/CE (Before Common Era/Common Era). This would help promote the neutral point of view in the article as a whole. I will be making these changes in the next few days if there is no discussion on the topic. EuCJD (talk) 23:21, 18 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I oppose the change. Wikipedia doesn't decide on era styles based on religion or history like that. Imagine the squabbles that would happen in articles both Jews and Christians claim? I think MOS:VAR applies and it should stay BC /AD. Masterhatch (talk) 18:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I too oppose. Per MOS:ERA and MOS:STYLEVAR, no good reason for the change and it just invites edit warring. Leave the status quo, whatever it is. Canterbury Tail talk 18:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)