Talk:History of Nagorno-Karabakh

Needs cleanup
This article contains some valuable material but it is very poorly written. In addition, it misses the entire period of Middle Ages: kingdoms of Khachen, Gardman and Ktish-Baghk are nowhere. The anti-Ottoman self-defense of the 1720s is not mentioned at all. It jumps from Aghvank to melikates. Ugly. Verjakette 04:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This article needs a complete rewrite. It is written in very poor English and contains tons of POV claims and unreliable sources. Grandmaster 05:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. Firestar464 (talk) 04:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)


 * me too. I am going to spend a little more time on this tonight, but while I think I can improve it somewhat, I don’t have the background to make judgement calls on POV issues in this topic area, so as I said elsewhere on this page, I encourage the participation of other editors Elinruby (talk) 01:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Hasan-Jalal
"Gasan-Djalal" likes been taken up from Russian. The full name of the Lord of Khachen was: (Old Armenian) Հասան-Ջալալ Դաւլա, transliteration: Hasan-Jalal Dola. See more about this name on the website of the family Hasan-Jalalyan (foundation). At one of the inscriptions of Gandzasar Hasan-Jalal is called: (Old Armenian) բնակաւոր ինքնակալ բարձր ու մեծ արցախական աշխարհի, թագաւոր յոգնասահման նահանգի, Native autocrat of the high and great land of Artsakh, King of vest county. --Vacio (talk) 17:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Anon, stop deleting Azerbaijan related images. The image is more than 100 years old and is PD. Grandmaster (talk) 05:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I restored the picture deleted by the banned user. Grandmaster (talk) 06:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

—good Elinruby (talk) 01:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 02:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Adigezal" :
 * Mirza Adigezal bey. Karabakh-name, p. 48
 * Mirza Adigezal bey. Karabakh-name
 * "meliki" :
 * Melikdoms of Khamsa
 * Melikdoms of Khamsa
 * Raffi. Melikdoms of Khamsa,XXI

Erich Feigl
I removed the strong, out of context pov added by Brandmeister utilizing Erich Feigl as a source. Feigl is a known Armenian Genocide denier and has been described as an anti-Armenian by the Simon Wiesenthal Center. I don't think referencing his work in this article is appropriate. Of course, I would like to see Brandmeister's reasoning for the inclusion of Feigl as a source.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 14:30, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Copyedit
I am currently copyediting this article. I did the best I could with the section named "Legend about Aran", but that section needs to be edited, expanded, reworked, reworded, etc by someone who is knowledgable about the subject. I can not copyedit the last portion of that section without taking an uneducated guess at the intended meaning.  Aaron north  (T/C) 04:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say that I have abandoned this copyedit. This article almost reads like it was automatically translated by machine from some foreign text, a lot of the paragraphs either make no sense or lack the proper context to even begin to figure out the intended meaning so that I could possibly reword into proper English. If an article is written by a non-native speaker in broken english, I can usually figure out what they are trying to say, but this isn't even written that well. This article needs the attention of an expert. In the meantime, I am downgrading the quality, there is no way this article could possibly qualify as B-level in its present condition.  Aaron north  (T/C) 04:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

article improvement
article needs improvement and a lead section. i will try to help. Gorzaim (talk) 19:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

English assistance needed
This article appears to be mostly written by non-English speakers. There are many problems with grammar and punctuation. A thorough review and revision would be helpful. Ryoung 122 22:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned references in History of Nagorno-Karabakh
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of Nagorno-Karabakh's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Atlas": From Ancient Rome: Scarre 1995 From Sahl Smbatean: Robert H. Hewsen, Armenia: A Historical Atlas. The University of Chicago Press, 2001, pp. 119, 163. From Karabakh: Hewsen. Armenia, pp. 119, 155, 163, 264-265. From Polygamy: Ethnographic Atlas Codebook derived from George P. Murdock's Ethnographic Atlas recording the marital composition of 1231 societies from 1960 to 1980 From Nagorno-Karabakh: Robert H. Hewsen, Armenia: A Historical Atlas. The University of Chicago Press, 2001, pp. 119, 155, 163, 264–65. From Kingdom of Artsakh:  From Nakhichevan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic: Dr Andrew Andersen, PhD Atlas of Conflicts: Armenia: Nation Building and Territorial Disputes: 1918–1920 From Caucasian Albania: </li> <li>From Artsakh: Hewsen. Armenia, pp. 118–121.</li> <li>From Shusha: Hewsen, Robert H., Armenia: A Historical Atlas. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2001, p. 155.</li> <li>From Kalbajar District: Robert H. Hewsen, Armenia: A Historical Atlas. The University of Chicago Press, 2001, pp. 40, 101-102, 264-265.</li> <li>From History of the Netherlands: </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 10:06, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

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== References to multiple occupations of Artsakh by the Roman Empire - citations rarely provided, the two that are are both insufficient and ought to be replaced with modern research/historiography and findings. ==

The part of the article with the table where it lists which nation was occupying Artsakh at what point in history is seriously lacking. In regards to Roman occupation - for which I can find no evidence for ever having occurred outside of two wikipedia articles about Artsakh - the citations are mostly non-existant, and the two that exist are flawed.

The citation for the statement that the Romans were occupying Artsakh in 51 AD: [101], 'Suny (1994)'. This doesn't seem to exist. Is 'Suny' the title of this historical book about a small caucasusian country? Does it lack an author? Or is Suny his name and the book has no title? I'm not well-versed in the etiquette of history books so perhaps it's common to omit either the title of the book or the author's name and make it unclear to the reader which one you've removed. I would suggest this citation and what it is citing be removed as I do not believe the citation actually exists and therefore, if that is the case, there lacks all evidence that the Romans occupied Artsakh in 51 AD (presumably the entire range of Roman occupation which apparently occurred between 47-58 AD is invalid too; if the citation for Roman presence in 51 AD can be disregarded and there are no citations for 47 AD or 58 AD then they should all be removed. In fact, most of the years lack citations until we reach the years of the past few centuries. I don't doubt that some of these occupations really did occur, but at the moment the provided citations are far too few, and the ones that are present prior to 1747 are very weak, often lead nowhere when you try to look them up and tend to rely on old or ancient sources from decades ago or from the 19th century. If I'm wrong and [101] corresponds to a valid, relevant article, please edit it with the title of the book as well as his name (I assume the title of the book is not 'Suny') as currently I am unable to verify the information being provided. If you google 'Suny (1994)' you will find an article entitled 'Tuition at SUNY to Rise $500; Increase Is the Third in 2 Years'. If you google 'Suny (1994)' you will find a link that leads you to page 14 of a book called 'Ethnicity and Territory in the Former Soviet Union: Regions in Conflict', written by Dr James Hughes. Neither are relevant.

The second citation is nominally valid. If I was a Victorian I would have accepted it. However, it's 2019 and citations pulling from books which began to be wrote in 1850 - nearly 170 years ago - should be replaced with more recent research whenever possible; [102], "Theodore Mommsen. The Provinces of the Roman Empire. Chapter IX, p. 68". This book was published as three volumes during the years 1854–1856. Considering its age, and the undeniable fact that much more information regarding the Roman Republic, Roman Empire, the Armenian Artaxiad dynasty, the Iranian Arsacid dynasty, the Iberian Pharnavazid dynasty, the Province of Armenia, the Iranian Saddanian dynasty and the Albanian Mihranid dynasty must have come to light since the 1850s suggests to me this should either be scrapped or given citations from more updated research. Also, not a single historian has produced any evidence supporting Mommsen's claim in the 170 years since he made it.. I could be wrong and the addition of more recent information has simply been overlooked and there's plenty out there, in which case just adding that into the article as citations that would be a great solution. I've tried to find some however and I have been unable to. I would suggest it best this citation and the subsequent information that is being evidenced should be removed; we can't be confident one man's writings from 170 years ago is accurate when no one over such a long period has ever backed his claims. I think the risk of giving readers disinformation about world history is too great. I don't believe solitary ancient sources should remain forever sacrosanct, especially if research on the internet or at the library results in nothing to suggest the original claim is accurate.

Additionally, every citation before 1747 is dated, ranging from being 18 years old to 47 years old, and of course there's Mommsen's work which is 169 years old. I don't necessarily think 47 year-old research is invalid and certainly 18 year-old research is not, but when most of the information in your article lacks citations and the citations that are present are very few, and these very few citations are at their youngest from the early 90s and at their oldest from the 1850s, I think a review is in order. Additionally many citations are not in English despite it being an English article.

By the way, neither Mommsen's 'History of Rome' article on Wikipedia nor his personal article mention Artsakh at all. If you search for 'Theodor Mommsen Artsakh' and then select to only show results including 'Artsakh' you find nothing but Wiki pages and some very strange, obscure websites I'd recommend turning your anti-virus on before you access. There is this page which concerns me: https://www.revolvy.com/page/Timeline-of-Artsakh-history You can see the table used in the History of Artsakh copied onto their website - this is concerning as Wikipedia is potentially spreading false information here. At best, this is information that is mostly uncited and at worst it's information with citations which are completely wrong and/or outdated. I read the page cited in the 169 year-old citation and the word 'Artsakh' doesn't even appear; I don't believe Mommsen ever stated that Artsakh was occupied by Rome. Having read through several pages, I see nothing at all related to this assertion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.175.191.0 (talk) 05:37, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Demographics in 1823
I've restored the section in reference the demographics of Nagorno (or Mountainous Karabakh) as they are the relevant demographics for the region of this article. The broader Karabakh regions includes Zangezur/Syunik and well beyond to the lowlands, neither of which are historically part of Artsakh, and out of line with the lead. The Bournoutian source that is being used to justify a "broader" area demography is warning against this kind of inaccuracy, and describes this as a "campaign of misinformation". Why this source would be used to justify a "broader" demography, is beyond meMaidyouneed (talk) 08:39, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I am not justifying a "broader" area demography. On the contrary, given "Artsakh" nowadays refers to not only Nagorno-Karabakh but also the surrounding territories of the Karabakh region (supported by the fact that this is where the Republic of Artsakh is situated), the "campaign of misinformation" lies in the misuse of narrow demographics of the Nagorno-Karabakh Oblast to portray the whole region which is under Armenian control today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JBPeterson22 (talk • contribs) 13:03, 14 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I would suggest to remove all demographic data from the article as we have Demographics of the Republic of Artsakh article, which covers basically the same area. John Francis Templeson (talk) 21:18, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

1918-1920
I notify all concerned editors that in the near future I will rewrite the section about 1918-1920 according to the secondary academic sources. While I do not object the use of well-sourced documentation and historical correspondence, chronologic narrative based only on them is not appropriate for Encyclopedia, since both of them can be highly biased (given source is a collection of mostly Armenian documents). The work is probably not a quick one, so I will conduct it in several edits. Preliminary states of the section can seem to be unbalanced, but I ask you to not question them until the work is accomplished. Thank you. John Francis Templeson (talk) 21:18, 31 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I saw your message only now, so I'll raise my concerns here: the latest text which you added doesn't seem to be directly supported by the source "Yamskov, A. N. "Ethnic Conflict in the Transcausasus: The Case of Nagorno-Karabakh," Special Issue on Ethnic Conflict in the Soviet Union for the Theory and Society 20 (October 1991), pp. 649-650.", as in the cited pages most of what you wrote was not directly indicated. I assume you're going to add and edit that section, so I have reverted my changes. Aram-van (talk) 08:15, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Paragraph is written according to Richard Hovannisian's Republic of Armenia, while Yamskov's article is related only to the respective sentence. Probably, I should put links in a more clear way. Thank you for constructive approach. John Francis Templeson (talk) 21:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Dizak & Khachen: what centuries?
What period are we talking about in this paragraph? The text mentions a 9th c. prince, 13th c. buildings, and dumps the figures "10th to 16th centuries" w/o any elaboration. It's supposed to be HISTORY, not LEGEND ("once upon a time"). Arminden (talk) 08:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Edits of Maidyouneed
Colleague, I reverted some of your February edits, as they are either misinterpretation or misunderstanding. I kindly invite you to discuss, if you wish:


 * Both statements are present in the indicated source.
 * According to Yamskov, in Karabakh nomads and their lifestyle existed since Seljuq and Mongol invasions till the 19-20th centuries.
 * This edit hides the important information about the existence of Lowland Karabakh. The article doesn't reach limitations, so I ask you to refrain from such simplifications. John Francis Templeson (talk) 18:07, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Legend of Aran
I believe I have unscrambled the problem somebody was having in reading this, but the result should be checked by an expert or against the references. The heart of the problem was bad punctuation and some word being translated as “it” rather than “he”. Both are common translation problems, as are run-on sentences. I broke this sentence up, and swapped in the names that I believe the pronouns referred to, but while I am fairly confident that the result is correct, Armenian is not one of my languages and I cannot guarantee that I am not misunderstanding the grammar. However, assuming that I *am* correct,the section describes three generations, with some description of each.

In a nutshell Aran would be descended (according to these ancient authors) from Sisak, who himself was descended from Haik. Somebody please confirm this if they have knowledge that this is true; otherwise I will have to attempt to confirm this myself, and I would prefer to spend my time on copy editing. Elinruby (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Mountainous Karabakh
the article contained many gratuitous capitalizations and I initially thought this was one of them, and that mountainous was merely an adjective applied to the region of Karabakh. However, fairly far down the article is an explanation that this is a translation of the name in Russian, and elsewhere an account of its significance for nomadic herders. I am noting here that these explanations should be moved up; meanwhile I am restoring the capitalization as I encounter it on my second pass through Elinruby (talk) 03:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Removed text
I removed the following from the section titled “Nagorno-Karabakh war 1920”. My objection to it is that I cannot unscramble the numbers and the references are in a language I cannot read. I have no particular objection to somebody restoring it if they feel it is needed and can make it make sense Elinruby (talk) 08:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

“As a result of this rout, Shusha’s population was reduced by up to 9,000, and by the end of 20th and up to 5,000 persons (and so never and has not risen above 17,000 in 1989). Nadezhda Mandelstam so describes Shusha 20th years: "everywhere the same: two houses without a roof, without windows, without doors. (...) Speak, that after slaughter all wells have been hammered by corpses. If who has escaped, ran from this city of death. On all mountainous streets we did not see and have not met any person. Only below – on a market square – pottered about small group to people, but among them there was no Armenian, only muslims." “

The paragraph that followed that one is also pretty garbled and needs work:

“The course of the war was as follows: on April 3, Azerbaijanians borrowed Askeran (taken on March 22 by the Armenian insurgents). On April 7, from their base in Shusha, the Azerbaijan army has moved south. At the same time troops moved in the north, on Giulistan. By April 12, the Azerbaijan approach was stopped in Giulistan – under Chaikend, in the Varanda – under Keshishkend and Sigankh. In Khachen to Armenians in general it was possible to beat off successfully from the Azerbaijanians come from Agdam, and the Azerbaijanis only destroyed some villages in the valley of the river Khachen, to northeast from Askeran. Against Azerbaijan all armed manned population of Karabakh (30,000) operated; Armenia officially denied the participation in operations, that mismatched the validity. However, the Armenian armies on Zangezur front, under command of the general Dro (Drastamat Kanayan) crushed the Azerbaijan barriers and broke in Karabakh. The strategic situation had sharply changed, and Armenians had started to prepare for a storm of Shusha. “
 * Second reference is not a reliable source anyway. Memoirs of some paramilitary soldier. Better to leave it out. The first one is some primary source document, needs a better, secondary source. Grand  master  12:28, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. My concern is that as someone who doesn’t read any language that uses Cyrillic, I can only get a very general sense of what is going on here, and it’s easier to just rewrite, unless there is some particularly pertinent point in the above. It’s here out of an excess of transparency, but yes, sources are an issue in this article generally, besides their language. The memoirs might be RS for something but definitely aren’t for demographics of the town.Elinruby (talk) 14:54, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think someone just took the text from another language wikipedia and ran it through google translate. That is why it is very hard to read. Thank you very much for your efforts. The article is a much better read now. I agree, it is better to rewrite, than to try to adapt this text. Some claims are indeed out of touch with reality. For example, Armenian population of Shusha was about 23,000 according to the official statistics of 1917 (see the article on the city). This article claims that 30-35 thousand died. It is impossible for the death toll to exceed the actual number of population. I think if you see something that is poorly sourced, you can simply move it here, or just delete. Grand  master  22:53, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Lev Rokhlin
Removed “who was subsequently allegedly killed by his wife in unknown circumstances.” from a discussion of possible arms diversions. If this an attempt to suggest a connection it should be spelled out and sourced. If not it is tabloid irrelevance. Elinruby (talk) 14:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Lev Rokhlin suggests he was assaassinated. Have not yet examined the references for this Elinruby (talk) 06:57, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Rokhlin uncovered a corrupt scheme on huge illegal sale of arms to Armenia by top Russian military. Soon after that he died in mysterious circumstances. Officially he was murdered by his wife, but it is widely believed that he was assassinated. Grand  master  09:09, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Update and review for POV needed
Article stops in early 90s. A lot has happened since. I have done a fairly thorough copy edit, except that i am still working on the last section and will have to look up how to access the transcluded timeline. Since the article is already very long without the timeline, it may be better to simply link to it. However it likely has some of the same problems as the rest of the srticle so I think I or someonr else should address that before we think about structure.

I have started to look at the references and have found a lot of dead links, not all of them archived, as well as many links in a foreign language. Google says the ones i have have run through its translator are in Russian, and the metadata of these indicates they are relevant to the sentence in front of them, mostly, but I can't say at the moment that this is always true, nor am I certain that some of the references in Cyrillic aren't Armenian. Also some of the English references look iffy, and where are the references in Azerbaijani?

I have removed some emotional langusge, and have PoV concerns about several sections, interestingly, not consistently the same point of view; it is as if different sections were written by different opiniated editors eithout talking to one snother. I am just now starting to address content however so while i have tagged the article as needing an update, I am still looking into the point of view problems. I may lack the bandwidth and topic knowledge to fully address them, so I encourage the participation of other efitors. Elinruby (talk) 06:54, 15 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I believe this was machine translated from another language Wikipedia many years ago. As you noted, it needs a major rewrite to address neutrality and verifiability issues, as well as to bring it up do to date with consideration to the recent developments. I might be able to help. Grand  master  09:25, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2022
Pure propaganda and selective quotes to push a false narrative that the region wasn’t Armenian. “ Nagorno-Karabakh was neither Armenian nor even Indo-European and it was Armenized only in the aftermath of Armenian conquest.[2] Robert Hewsen does not exclude the possibility of the Armenian Orontid dynasty exercising control over Nagorno-Karabakh in the 4th century BC, however, this hypothesis is disputed by many other scholars, who believe the extent of Orontid Armenia was limited to the vicinity of Lake Sevan.[3][4][5]

Similarly, Robert Hewsen in his earlier work[6] and Soviet historiography[7][8] date the inclusion of Nagorno-Karabakh into Armenia to the 2nd century BC.“ source comes from the Armenianization of Albania a common propaganda narrative trying to claim the region was Albanian over Armenian. Hewsen work is more of a narrative than based on real facts.

What they are trying to do is nothing new. “In his article "The Albanian Myth", Russian historian and anthropologist Victor Schnirelmann states that Azerbaijani academics have been "renaming prominent medieval Armenian political leaders, historians and writers, who lived in Nagorno Karabakh and Armenia into "Albanians". 2001:569:5196:DF00:2581:9C3F:E67B:C5A8 (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:03, 9 July 2022 (UTC)