Talk:History of Pomerania (1933–1945)

Too long period
I fail to understand why the history section is 1933-Present. Usually the period of Germany starting World War second time is within 1933-1945. The period after 1945 is considered modern history and historians date it 1945-Present as usuall practice.--Molobo (talk) 20:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Everything that happened in Pomerania in the pretext, aftermath and WWII itself is so closely related that a cut cannot be made without an impact on the understanding of the events described in the article. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Claiming Poland and Nazi Germany were equal ? This is unacceptable.
Atrocities were committed on both sides during and after the invasion. This is unacceptable POV and will be removed. Nazi Germany classifed Poles as subhumans to be exterminated with less rights then animals(who were for example protected from medical experiments). What "atrocities" were made by Poles when under Nazi German occupation. I will delete this. I also doubt any reliable source claims this, and if there is a source that does it is likely coming from a narrow revisionist take on history that is not suitable for main article.--Molobo (talk) 20:39, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, this is unacceptable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 07:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The article states and sources in the respective section what scale of atrocities were committed. It is important to note that the invasion was not a "plain" military operation but went hand in hand with atrocities directed at civilians. The lead does not say they were "equal", but just mentions that. One could expand the sentence a bit and give the ratio, though. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Ratio massive Nazi atrocities in Poland to "atrocities" committed by Polish Army and AK? Sorry, but I think this is an absurd....--Jacurek (talk) 08:00, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No, ratio of atrocities in Pomerania during the invasion. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No examples of "Polish and Jewish" atrocities against Germans are presented. Only some arrests are presented and German provocation operation as example-that is hardly anything supportive of such claim. Also the sentences writes "after the invasion". Show any evidence as to atrocities of Poles and Jews against Germans comperable to Holocaust.--Molobo (talk) 13:10, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See below. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * i agree with those who say its unacceptable. there were no Polish atrocities, there were just things which happened in ANY war. The Nazis on the other hand commited one atrocity after another. Loosmark (talk) 10:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

POV article
From attempts to portay Poland and Nazi Germany as equal in regards to each other, to seriously out of balance weight given to Nazi propaganda claims, and trying to express OR and POV in regards to former Polish territories this article is terribly POV-ed and needs a serious re-write. I added a template so that the readers know this is not a neutral article but rather a synthesis pushing a certain Point of View by a editor.--Molobo (talk) 21:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You have got to state exactly which sources you think represent a certain POV and what POV of other sources is ill-represented. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Better timeframe 1933-1945
The timeframe 1934-1945 is better. The history of WW2 in this region is very detailed and needs extensive overview.--Molobo (talk) 21:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * See above. The post-45 events are a direct consequence of the pre-45 events, can't cut that. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The consequences of German invasion are felt in Poland even today, but the war ended in 1945 and most historians end the chapter at this date. I don't see how 1950 should be the closing date. Also first discuss then move.--Molobo (talk) 12:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Around 1950, war-related expulsions and resettlements were about finished, and the post-war states arose. You can't cut in 1945, what happend the following years is directly related to the war, despite the actual fightings having ended in May 45. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Better timeframe is 1918-1945. There is no serious reason to include 1950.Xx236 (talk) 12:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

What atrocities did Poles and Jews commit?
German invasion of Poland 1939 - Atrocities were committed on both sides during and after the invasion, with a much higher ratio of losses among the Polish and Jewish civilians.

What atrocities did Poles and Jews commit? Did they burn German towns and villigies murdering in mass German civilians? Exuse my sarcasm but I'm still not getting this atrocities were committed on both sides ... please explain.

(previous statement by Jacurek)


 * The Jews did not commit any atrocities, the way it's put is not perfect. For the atrocities committed by Poles, see the resp. subsection of the invasion section. The death toll during the atrocities committed by Germans was much higher than the one resulting from Polish atrocities, that balance was missing in the initial sentence and the sentence cited above came about from the aim to introduce that ratio. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Any crimes Poles committed on German population at that time will be compared to huge Nazi crimes on Poles creating controversy and what would be the ratio? 1 to 10000? I do not think you can explain this accurately in one sentence. It is better to drop that controversial line.--Jacurek (talk) 09:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The ratio of the invasion-related atrocities is about 1:10, according to the sources cited in the respective sections. This article arose from my recent expansion and subsequent splitting, and did not have a lead section. When I wrote the lead, I just wanted to shortly summarize the article according to the WP policies, that's all. I have no problem with these atrocities being dropped from the lead, if that's just creating an unnecessary battlefield. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the scale of the Polish murders was that big but I'm not familiar with the source. In any case, they are overshadowed by the Nazi crimes on Poles and that's why this single sentence became a problem. Maybe others will advice you better if you think it is important to mention Polish crimes. In my opinion the way it was written earlier was very unacceptable.--Jacurek (talk) 10:07, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

No atrocities from Polish side are to be seen. Interning Germans who belonged to organisations supportive of invasion is hardly "atrocity". The Bydgoszcz events are now widely known to be a German provocation itself. Also the article distorts history by avoiding mention that Poles and Jews were targeted for extermination and considered untermenschen. The occasionall outburst of violance against Germans from civilians or individual sources can't be compered.--Molobo (talk) 12:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 2,000 to 4,500 dead ethnic Germans in the context of the invasions are sourced. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

What 'invasions' ? Your sentence writes 'before and after the invasion'. That means compering Holocaust to any "atrocities" made by Poles and Jews. I know about history but I have yet to learn of anything that would be comperable. And I will gladly source how many of those dead were members of paramilitary groups fighting Polish army. Thus hardly a "atrocity". --Molobo (talk) 13:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

At Polish_September_Campaign we have a ref that there German civilian losses amounted to roughly 3,250 (including 2,000 who died fighting Polish troops as members of a fifth column). Thus your 2,000-4,500 estimate seems rather large. At the very least it should be noted that higher estimates are from German historians, and lower, from Polish. It should also be noted that some "civilians" were fifth column operatives, and that Germans planned to trigger anti-German violence for propaganda reasons.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Any evidence of allegations ?
Ok please show evidence that Poland and Jews like Nazi Germany in war classified Germans as subhumans, prepared lists of German intelectual and leading elites to mass murder by organisations of Polish minority in Germany in 1939 and that German nation was to be exterminated. Otherwise the unnacceptable sentence comparing Poland and Jews to Nazi Germany should be deleted. Existing claims are only in regards to internment of some Germans-hardly comparable and normal in war situation.Certainly not atrocity or violance. The other example is a German provocation. So if nothing else is brought up I see no reason for the sentence to stay.--Molobo (talk) 12:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What sentence are you talking about? Skäpperöd (talk) 13:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Misleading lead
The lead now is misleading. It implies that atrocities were comitted soley by NSDAP and soley against Jewish people. The ethnic cleansing of Poles and their mass murder is not mentioned in the lead. Also the current versions may mislead since a large portion of atrocities were comitted by non-NSDAP members from Wehrmacht.--Molobo (talk) 13:30, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It states that they set up concentration camps and systematically murdered everyone they regarded to be an untermensch. That's not just Jews. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC) Your sentence includes only Jews. You won't mind if I expand this to make less misleading, will you.--Molobo (talk) 13:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Claims that Jews were "deported" rather then mass murdered.
Weren't Jews mass murdered rather then "deported" ? Also weren't Poles ethnicly cleansed and murdered ? The deportation stricks me as extremely insufficient wording and concealing the nature of their treatment within Germany.--Molobo (talk) 13:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe you should read my well sourced section about the deportation of Jews. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I am talking about the lead. Btw: Please explain why there isn't anything about ethnic cleansing and mass murder of Poles in the lead. Or atrocities of Wehrmacht.--Molobo (talk) 13:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "The Nazi's set up concentration camps, deported the Jews, and systematically killed people they regarded as Untermensch.". is the current sentence. That includes Poles, Jews, disabled, Communists, "associals", and many others. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I will add Poles and Jews(considered untermenschen), disabled, communists, associals and others in the lead. By mentioning only Jews the sentence makes impression that only includes them. Also I will add German forces before systamatically killing-since Wehrmacht was not part of NSDAP and conducted mass murder on large scale.--Molobo (talk) 13:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I restored
The number of those who died in diversion operations in main text. This puts the number of deaths in proper perspective. Please do not remove it into footnote, as this is information important enough to be in the main text.--Molobo (talk) 14:30, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Started expanding.
I expanded the section on extermination of Poles and Jews by German state during WW2. Now it covers only the atrocities made by Germans in invasion. I will later cover preperations for the genocide and invasion made before the war, the later occupation policy, germanisation policies as well as ethnic cleansing of Poles from the area.--Molobo (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Chronology
I restored the initial chronology which placed the anti-German atrocities before the other ones. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

"Eksterminacja"
I replaced "extermination" of Poles with either atrocities or aimed at extermination. The Stutthof memorial site, from which the anti-Polish atrocities info is drawn, uses "Eksterminacja", but I think it is quite obvious that it was mass murder, but not extermination. 60,000 dead is bad, but extermination of a nation is something different. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC) Please do not remove sourced scholary terminology by your own personal views, do read on original reaserch, please. The extermination doesn't have to be complete to be named as such.--Molobo (talk) 13:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguous sentences
Could someone please clarify
 * 1) "On the territories of powiats: tczewski, starogardzki, kartuski, kościerski, morski numerous arrests and executions took place. "
 * Question: Isn't that pretty much all of Pomerelia? Why mention the counties? Were there any without arrests? Skäpperöd (talk) 20:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) In the area of Szpęgawski Forest Jewish population was executed.
 * Question: All of the Pomerelian Jews? Skäpperöd (talk) 20:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Deaths in army
Between 2,000 and 4,500 West Prussian ethnic Germans are estimated to have lost their lifes in anti-German violence occuring in the context of the invasion, internment marches, diversion actions, and while serving in the Polish army. This is unclear: the deaths "while serving in the Polish army" - does it refer to deaths in combat when facing Werhmarcht? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Most probably, the source does not give additional information. I have reformatted the sentence anyway since it seemed to be not desired to give a range, but rather state the sources one by one. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * While it doesn't mean it hasn't occurred, in all my readings about Polish September Campaign, Polish army and so on I've not heard anything about violence committed on fellow soldiers due to them being German (the closest I remember was the mistrust and mistreatment of Silesians drafted into German army who tried to join the Polish units in the Soviet forces).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

All German placenames were replaced with Polish[76] or Polonized medieval Slavic ones
What about Germanized Slavic names ? Xx236 (talk) 08:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Szpęgawski Forest
Not only Jews, e.g. mentally ill people.Xx236 (talk) 13:02, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you seem to know sth about it, could you maybe clarify the questions I raised above (section ambigous sentences)? E.g., were all Jews of the region murdered there? Skäpperöd (talk) 14:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

death toll estimates were summarized at about 4,500
In the area or in whole Poland?Xx236 (talk) 13:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In the area. I (re-)inserted the precise quote and fixed the URL - this somehow got lost during my recent efforts to put all numbers in one estimate range and other editors insisting on having the sources' numbers separated. Sorry about the confusion. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Pomeranian Voivodeship (Polish Corridor)
The section doesn't inform about the region, rather about the international conflict.Xx236 (talk) 14:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What happened there in the 20s and early 30s is not in the scope of this article. Just before the invasion, "big politics" of non-Pomeranians was - as sad and catastrophical it turned out to become - almost all that mattered in this period. (That does not mean that Pomeranians did not participate.) Skäpperöd (talk) 14:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This is the place right to discuss the local history, not only the international one.Xx236 (talk) 15:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Gregor Thum, Die fremde Stadt. Breslau nach 1945
The book is about Breslau/Wrocław. It doesn't cover Pomerania.Xx236 (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * though focussing on Breslau/Wrocław, it also has rich informations about the Oder-Neisse territories as a whole. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The lead describes the situation in German and Polish Pomerania. Even if the book informs about German Pomerania (where exactly ?) it hardly describes the situation in Polish Pomerania.Xx236 (talk) 14:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Red Army in Gdańsk region 1945-1947 - the book
"Armia Czerwona na Pomorzu Gdańskim 1945-1947", by G. Baziur may be useful.Xx236 (talk) 12:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Minor changes
Note that first massacres started with Wehrmacht. Also more precise wording as not German people responsible for genocide and murder were members of NSDAP.--Molobo (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

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 * Removed File:Beck and hitler.jpg and replaced File:Bonhoeffer.jpg. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

which was rejected by the Polish government.[2]
The next phrase is about the German invasion. So the result is "The Poles rejected German demands and Germans invided Poland". It's absurd. Germany demanded Polish collaboration against the SU, not mentioned here.Xx236 (talk) 10:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Chincinski misquoted
Given quote says something different than the phrase in the article does.Xx236 (talk) 11:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

West Prussian ethnic Germans
Is it standard English wording? West Prussia is German POV.Xx236 (talk) 11:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

B-class review: failed
Reviewing this article for B-class, I find that it doesn't meet the comprehensivity and reference criteria. It is a good C-class article, overall. Some issues to clarify/expand on: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:14, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * the article covers voting in the German regions, but not in Polish. I wonder what was the % of votes for the German minority parties in the Polish regions?
 * "Civilian losses" - does not mention losses of Slavic/Polish/Jewish population

pov pushing nonsense
This edit tries to pretend that Poles were only "expelled" from Pomerania rather than ruthlessly exterminated by the Germans. It's nonsense. See Mass murders in Piaśnica or Intelligenzaktion in Pomerania. Since Skapperod has been active at least some of these articles and has a pretty good, though skewed, grasp of Pomeranian history I am sure he is aware of this fact. So why the blatant misrepresentation of facts?Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Numbers
The numbers of interned suspected Nazi collaborators weren't for Pomerania, other estimates of Nazi collaborators arrested are much much lower for Pomeranian part of Poland. Sources that discuss this event indicate that most of the number was in Greater Poland(aprox 10.000) as part of thwarting Nazi diversion plans. I added estimates of interned suspected Nazis and anti-Polish activists for Pomerania. Btw-the German language source used also confirmed that sabotage and diversion was taking place. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:51, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Civilian losses section doesn't contain important information
Civilian losses section for some reason doesn't include Jews and Poles murdered by Nazi Germany, it also uses work made mostly by former Nazis as source.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 01:04, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Creation of Stutthof camp
Creation of the Stutthof camp should be mentioned before informations fo using it.Xx236 (talk) 07:31, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

B-class review failed
This article is pretty close, but 1) few (very few, but still) paras are unreferenced/cite tags are outstanding. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:25, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

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Systematic genocide of Poles
in regards to diff, please, per WP:NOENG provide quotations + translations for the citations you inserted that support "systematically engaged in genocide of people they regarded as Untermensch (primarily Jews, Poles and Roma)". The sources you added, AFAICT, support Foster's intent to commit genocide against the Poles ("from the cradle"), however AFAICT they do not support actual genocide carried out. Icewhiz (talk) 15:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)