Talk:History of Western role-playing video games

Another article
Here is an interesting article I have encountered: The year role-playing games broke. I don't know how it can be worked into the existing article, though... Chronologically, it would fit at the end of the Golden Age section, I think. --Koveras ☭ 14:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Great tip, thanks! SharkD   Talk  06:03, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Kickstarting
Should probably mention the new Kickstarter trend (e.g. Wasteland 2). However, I haven't been keeping up with developments recently. SharkD  Talk  06:55, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, one game is not really a trend. So far there have been a few established designers that have gone this route in the past few weeks, but Wasteland 2 is the only prominent RPG I am aware of.  Also, while there may be a larger trend developing in terms of niche genres that have been ignored by risk adverse publishers gaining new life through Kickstarter funding, its really too soon to reach any kind of conclusion.  If the first round of games flop or too many developers turn to Kickstarter at once and thereby cause resources to be spread too thin amongst projects, the whole movement could still flounder.  Until the implications are clearer across the entire video game space, I don't think this article is the best place to discuss this trend. Its certainly a fascinating development to keep an eye on, however. Indrian (talk) 07:40, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There are four RPGs being worked on right now: Banner Saga, Wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns and Class of Heroes 2. SharkD   Talk  23:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, its a trend that should be covered somewhere on wikipedia, but I do not think the influence has been felt on RPGs yet. Once a few of these projects launch, we will have a better idea of what their impact will be. Indrian (talk) 23:41, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Grim Dawn is another one. SharkD   Talk  23:43, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Proofreading
I think this article is in need of some proofreading. Especially parts where the narrative seems disjointed and the grammar is just "off". Is now a good time to nominate the article for FAC or peer review? SharkD  Talk  04:27, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This article was recently nominated for GA status. However, it currently fails criteria 1b with regards to meeting the "manual of style guidelines for lead sections" which says "The lead should define the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." While this current lead, defines the topic, it does not summarize the body of the article. maclean (talk) 05:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Is the current lede any better? SharkD   Talk  19:13, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was a positive addition to the lead. Generally, aim for this WP:LEAD#Length, but really these prinples that should be incorporated into the lead: WP:LEAD#Introductory text. —maclean (talk) 20:14, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I've expanded it a bit further. Is that sufficient? SharkD   Talk  21:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

removal of image which was under CC from commons
Hi SharkD, I want to discuss the removal of a high-quality screenshot of an actual game which should be preferable before low resolution fair-use images which make the majority of the other images in this article. Also, the given reason sounds strange to me, "image limit"? Such an policy would be new to me. thanks Shaddim (talk) 19:30, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia frowns on articles having too many Fair Use (i.e. non-free) images in a single article. I fear we are approaching that limit already at five four images. Secondly, high-resolution Fair Use images are a BAD thing. Low-resolution images are preferred. Expect someone in the near future to come along and reduce the size of your image to something smaller. Thirdly, I don't think the image you selected shows us anything new. We already have an image of a first-person, tile-based game (Dungeon Master). Lastly, I don't think LoG is nearly well-known enough to be featured in the article with its own image. SharkD   Talk  20:16, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi sharkD, exactly that was my point, the LoG image is NOT a fair use image. It is a much better image because licensed for use on wikipedia (see here File:Legend of Grimrock screenshot 01.jpg)! So this image can be used without restriction and should be prefered before fair use images. :) Also, I think the LoG image is better as it shows the game situation AND an character sheet and inventory. cheers Shaddim (talk) 20:31, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I still don't think LoG occupies an important enough place in VG history. It shows nothing new that the existing images don't already do, and it doesn't show anything better (or even as well) than the existing images already do. And, I can virtually guarantee that another image will be removed to make room for it. It may be notable as a Dungeon Master clone, but that doesn't help our article. SharkD   Talk  20:43, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, the up to now limited importance of LoG is an aspect to consider. But maybe this is now to late, as fair use only applies if no free image alternative is available, as far as I know. And we have now a free one. Should we close our eyes? ;) Shaddim (talk) 20:51, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * A free alternative to what? Dungeon master? The Elder Scrolls? Fallout? What?! SharkD   Talk  01:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * as illustrating example of a 3d realtime roleplay game, a dungeon crawler. Advantages: high resolution, multi purpose (game situation, character sheet, character inventory), a real free image without restrictions and as last point it is actual and visual pleasing picture. Overall, can you please give me link to the policy where the amount of pictures is limited, I want to read and interprete this policy myself, thanks Shaddim (talk) 06:55, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Such a limit hasn't been formalized, AFAIK. SharkD   Talk  19:06, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Copy edit comments
This is where I will address issues that need clarification from the main author/editor.
 * In the first sentence, is there a reason for "specifically" North America? If the idea is that North America is typically the main producer of such games, there's a less POV way of saying so, unless you have a reference that gives a reason like they're considered to be a waste of time/so ten years ago/evil or some such thing in other areas. Dementia13 (talk) 17:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The "specifically..." bit was added by another author. I went ahead and changed it to "including". SharkD   Talk  00:37, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If North America has historically been the predominant producer, it's OK to say so, it just requires a reference. If there are any historical or cultural reasons why this is so, that would be a good inclusion. It appears that there is, as the games originated in US universities, and were influenced by other US games such as D&D and the Avalon Hill games. Dementia13 (talk) 18:16, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite a number of European RPGs (including Eastern Europe) have been released in the last decade, as well as a handful in the 1990s. SharkD   Talk  20:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Under "Mainframe", several titles are mentioned in a row. Some give years, some don't. Does this mean that the several games listed before moria were all created in the same year, 1975? Dementia13 (talk) 18:08, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it just means I don't have dates for those games. Would it be better to add "(????)" or "(19??)" after them to indicate that the exact dates are unknown? SharkD   Talk  00:37, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know that the dates are necessary. I recommend to leave them blank if unknown. I can't find that it's specified in WP:MOS. The only information I can find is that the first date of publication is considered essential information, but that specifically refers to lists of literary works. I don't see why software titles wouldn't be done the same way, but it's not specified, and this is not a list. My instinct is, don't sweat it, unless you need to disambiguate two games that share the same title. Dementia13 (talk) 18:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Also under "Mainframe": "Of particular note is 1987's NetHack, an update to Rogue considered one of the "oldest games in development" due to its continuous extensions and updates over nearly two decades." That reference is dated, and it's now over two-and-a-half decades. Consider supplementing that reference with one that indicates that the game is still under active development. Sorry about the slow progress, BTW, I lost web access for a good while. The pace should pick up. Dementia13 (talk) 18:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Apparently the latest version of NetHack was released in 2003, so we should probably remove the comment entirely, or switch to past tense as in "was one of the oldest games in development." SharkD   Talk  20:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I cut it, because I don't see how it remains relevant, unless it's the only game, or one of few, to have been developed for so long. Dementia13 (talk) 21:08, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's too bad. I think only a few games have been developed for so long. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Ultima III was considered by many to be the first modern CRPG." I changed this, because that's the kind of thing that gets said only in retrospect. In other words, people of the time weren't saying, "Finally a modern CRPG!", that's us, looking back and trying to figure out where it all started, so the statement needs to be in the present tense. If that somehow violates what the reference stated, then change it back. Dementia13 (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Present tense is OK. However, note that the source itself is five years old. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It's stated that Garriott left NCsoft in 2009, but other sources say 2008. Be sure to verify that. Dementia13 (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you remove the date? I can't see where this is stated in the article. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Golden Age": in speaking of SSI games, there's this: "SSI's earlier "hardcore" RPG Wizard's Crown (1985) featured eight-character parties, a skill-based experience system, highly detailed combat mechanics, dozens of commands, injuries and bleeding, and strengths and weaknesses versus individual weapon classes" If I reword "strengths and weaknesses versus individual weapon classes" as "strengths and weaknesses that vary according an opponent's weapon class", does this say the same thing? Dementia13 (talk) 02:33, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's OK. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It strikes me that mobile games are excluded from this article, and there are titles out there. If console games are a topic, then so are iOS games. Dementia13 (talk) 14:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of any notable iOS games except maybe those by Spiderweb Software. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Bethesda, along with BioWare and Blizzard, is one of the three "B"s in the RPG world today, with Bethesda offering free-roaming exploration, BioWare offering a more focused narrative, and Obsidian refining the efforts of both.[44]" Is this "three 'b's'" thing a common observation, or is it just some cute turn of phrase that the author of that reference came up with? It's not even a consistent statement, as Obsidian gets thrown suddenly into the mix. Dementia13 (talk) 17:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's something the author made up. Removing it is OK. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Fallout was nearly as influential on post-crash RPGs as Ultima was on Golden Age RPGs, and is considered by some to be the first "modern" CRPG." Inconsistent, because the same thing was said earlier about Ultima. That may be the "retrospect" thing, combined with sources of different ages. "Modern" to a person of 10-15 years ago is different than "modern" today. Statements like this can be trouble, but could be good if fleshed out with details about what makes it "modern", and how "modern" is defined. Dementia13 (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure what to do about this. One author says one thing; another says a different thing. Both are relatively recent, however. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Ambiguous: "Interplay's collapse resulted in the shutdown of Black Isle and the cancellation of the third games in both the Fallout and Baldur's Gate series, as well as of an original title, Torn.[70][71][72] Instead, they published a trio of console-only action RPGs... " Who is they? The closest "they" is Black Isle, but the previous sentence says that they were shut down. Is "they" Interplay? Dementia13 (talk) 20:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Interplay is "they". SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * "Interplay announced in 2008 that money from its sale of the Fallout intellectual property to Bethesda Softworks and the sale of its controlling interests to a Luxembourg-based firm would be used to relaunch its game development studio." This may be overly detailed. The paragraph as a whole might fit better into the Interplay main article than into an article about genre history. Dementia13 (talk) 21:49, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fair. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Under "Video game consoles...", 2nd par.: "Their original IP, Jade Empire (2005) was also an Xbox exclusive," What's "IP"? That has to be spelled out on first use. Dementia13 (talk) 01:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "IP" is intellectual property. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The entire final paragraph, about Blakemore's game, stands out like a sore thumb. You've got several paragraphs that discuss trends, and then an entire paragraph devoted to a single piece of vaporware. You've got a lot of sources there, so the game must be notable, but is it notable for this context, for the purposes of this particular article? Dementia13 (talk) 04:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He is well-known within the indie RPG community for his "vaporware" title, as well as his extreme political views and noxious Internet personality. IMO, no discussion of indie RPGs is complete without mentioning Blakemore, just as no discussion of indie space sims is complete without mentioning Derek Smart. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

The copy edit is complete. I'll check back in, in case something's changed, or I missed something. Dementia13 (talk) 04:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I'll start on the other FAC comments tomorrow. SharkD   Talk  04:17, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

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CD Projekt Red
The article could probably use a section just for this studio. &#x27A7; datumizer   &#9742;  13:12, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. But some Dark Eye games should be mentioned somewhere too. &#x27A7; datumizer   &#9742;  13:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Western/Japanese split
We should have one article that encompasses all RPG video game history. Then splitting out a part might work, but not a original "Western" something name. In general, a Japanese firm may produce a English "Western" RPG game, it's not about geography. Right now, this likely fails the GA status. IgelRM (talk) 20:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)