Talk:History of aviation in Alaska

Until I figure out how to do this, here's my assessment of the importance (high) and quality (stub) of this article. Deirdre (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Long list of pilots
I don't see why listing hundreds of random pilots is necessary, especially considering that most of them are probably not significant historical figures. As far as I can tell, the easiest solution will just be to remove all pilots other than those who already have articles (ones that show up as bluelinks). r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 18:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This was never much of an article, but now it has turned into a joke. There's only one sentence of actual content, and then a long list of names, most of which do not have their own article or any other reason specified that they should be listed. This isn't supposed to be a list of pilots, but an article detailing aviation history in Alaska. I'm beggining to think maybe it should just be redirected elsewhere as it's been here for years but never expanded beyond a stub, and now it's just gotten ridiculous. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There is very little content here, I'll go ahead and delete the names that aren't linked. Fuzbaby (talk) 04:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Please note that this article is in progress; I agree that hundreds of random pilots aren't necessary, but some of the deleted pilots are quite notable in Alaska history, they just haven't had somebody to write a biography of them yet for their own page. I'll spend a bit of time beefing up the content, too. This is one of those pages I've neglected for a while; sorry about that. Deirdre (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello - I am the person (new contributor, culprit?) who added some dates to pilots in the original list that lacked dates, and later added the long list of additional pilots. All of my additions were taken from the publication 'Honoring 100 Alaska Bush Pilots" published by the Aviation Committee of the Alaska Purchase Centennial 1867-1967, so they are all of some note & distinction. I have biographies on each of these pilots, and my intent was to begin adding biography articles on each of them after expanding the list.  I had also intended to add to the list of DEFUNCT AIRLINES with articles on the 14 or so airlines that became part of today's Alaska Airlines, or part of Delta Airlines, or went out ouf business.  I thought all of this would constitute significant additions.  Am I on the right track or am I wrong? RoyDickson (talk) 20:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say you are somewhere in between Roy. Aviation has held an undeniably important place in Alaska's history, but I doubt most of the list of the top 100 bush pilots are going to be above the bar of the general notability guideline. The issue here, which has come up a few times before, is that there are so many tiny air taxi/bush pilot/flightseeing outfits in Alaska. It so common to fly up here that having an article on every pilot would be like having an article on every cab driver in New York. However, there are bound to be a few pilots whose names loom large and have had important, long lasting impact on aviation in Alaska. I would suggest trying to identify those notable persons and develop articles on them. Same with the defunct or small airlines. What I think should not happen is that this article be a long list with little to no actual content, as that will not be useful to readers. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I need to find out where you are setting the notability bar for the Bush Pilots. I had assumed that being selected to be honored as having "played so vital a part in this unique part of Alaska History" by the Centennial Commission would have qualified them as automatically being notable. But if this is not rational, can you give me some guidelines? Several not included in the current Wiki list have been inducted into the Alaska Aviation Museum Hall of Fame, the OX-5 Hall of Fame, and other national and international Aviation Halls of Fame. Others have participated in historic rescues, etc. So, I need to find out where you are setting the bar so I don't spend a lot of time working on articles that won't "pass the test." Similarly, where would the notability bar be set for documenting "Defunct Airlines"? Woodley Airways, Star Airlines, Mirow Air Service, Pacific Northern Airlines, and several others were major operations that provided virtually all of the air services in the 1930s before the government began regulating air routes. So, again it could save me a lot of time and embarrassment if I knew where the bar is set so I can screen my material. I wonder if comparing the 100 Bush Pilots to all the cab drivers in NYC may be trivializing their contributions, and whether comparing the major air service companies of the 1930s with today's tiny air taxi etc services might be trivializing some major participants. So, I look forward to your guidance and suggestions. Old33 (talk) 15:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about getting them listed here in the article namespace just yet. Remember that I made you a copy of this article in your userspace at User:RoyDickson/History of Aviation in Alaska. As for getting them listed, you may wish to create a seperate list article (something like List of glider pilots at User:RoyDickson/List of Alaskan pilots or User:RoyDickson/List of Alaskan bush pilots. You would have to prove their notability with reliable sources (educational/government publications).If they did indeed get into the Alaska aviation hall of fame, then they probably are notable enough to qualify getting listed. These people should meet Notability, Notability (people), and WikiProject Aviation/Notability. However, as there is no set criteria for pilots, a general consensus regarding their notability should suffice. So for now, list the pilots in your userspace, and I'll let you know which ones are/arent't notable enough to get listed. Thanks.Smallman12q (talk) 18:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Copied from the thread at my userpage, here is my opinion on what standards to use for notability: "You probably want WP:NLIST (notability criterion for lists of people), and WP:ANYBIO (general notability guideline for people). Most notability guides are not relevant because they tend to be about whether something is notable enough for its own article, rather than notable enough to be in a list. For lists, the concern is more with style guidelines than notability per se; the question is whether an article benefits from a giant list of people for whom significance isn't demonstrated (ie, people who have done nothing other than have a career). r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)" r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I would like to see each name added to the list be notable enough that they could have at least (a small) an article of their own. However, from my read of Rjanag's post people in a list don't need to meet quiete that standard, so you could argue for inclusion of some that wouldn't merit their own pages, but it might be a good place to start with the ones who do. I'd be interested to see your additions about former air carriers. Fuzbaby (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding former air carriers inquiry - There were approximately 90 air carriers that operated in Alaska in the 1920-1940 period. Some of them went out of business when their founder died in a crash, some sold or merged with other carriers, and some were just one man, one plane services that went out of business. The air services started in Fairbanks, then grew in Anchorage, while quite a number started in southeastern Alaska. There were about 16 that through mergers and acquisitions became part of Alaska Airlines. The other survivor was Woodley Airways which became Pacific Northern Airlines which merged with Western Airlines which was acquired by Delta Airlines. Some that did not survive were important carriers such as the Reeve family of air services and the Wien family of air services. So, there is a lot of interesting history in Alaska Aviation and its participants. Old33 (talk) 17:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What you could do is make a list of these air carriers as a separate article. See List_of_airlines for examples.Smallman12q (talk) 23:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

It makes good sense to me to create a list page; these are supposed to be lists, whereas a general page on the history of aviation in Alaska is supposed to be an article. It's simply a different type of writing: the history page should be using complete sentences and paragraphs, whereas the listing is (after the description of what its listing), a bunch of bullets.Deirdre (talk) 00:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

New page
Just a notice to any editors involved, User:RoyDickson recently created List of Alaskan aviators. r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 02:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Note to any interested editors/contributors - please review two suggested new lists List of Alaskan Hall of Fame pilots and List of Alaskan aviators - comments welcome. Old33 (talk) 15:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)