Talk:History of bras/Archive 1

source for statement??
The article states "In the Victorian era, despite contemporary ideas about morality, women's clothing was paradoxically designed to emphasize and expose the breast with a low bodice." I have researched 19th century women's clothing spanning most of the century, and I cannot think of an example of decolette (exposing the breast) in the Victorian era. Earlier, yes, definitely. Victoria reigned from 1837, I believe, which is the start of the Victorian era. The low cut gowns were at the turn of the 19th cent. and the first couple of decades. I think the wording should be changed unless a source can be found. It certainly was not common at all to expose the breasts. Amity150 06:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Resolved — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:54, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

elastic
You article gives a date of approximately 1900 for the invention of elastic. I believe it was first developed in the 1850s. It was certainly in use by the U.S. civil war, and was especially found on the side gores of ankle length boots. Amity150 06:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Resolved — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:54, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Flow Problem?
In your 20th century section, the (excellent) author's initial sentences are:

"In 1910, Mary Phelps Jacob, a 19-year-old New York socialite, purchased a sheer evening gown for a social event. At that time, the only acceptable undergarment was a corset stiffened with whalebone. Polly..."

POLLY? Who is Polly? If this was Mary Phelps Jacob's nickname, then it ought to be introduced as such. As is, it is odd to introduce her one way, and then immediately begin referring to her another way. Also, if Polly is her first name, it seems a bit patriarchal to refer to her by her first name, instead of her last.

Kjdamrau 19:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)KJDdamrau


 * Resolved — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:54, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

When is "today"?
As the 2000 dollar is worth about $1.38 2007 dollars and it will probably never do anything but get worse, can you say when "today" is? Kencomer (talk) 08:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Resolved — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:54, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)


 * "uplift" :
 * Uplift: The Bra in America. Jane Farrell-Beck and Colleen Gau. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2002 xvi, 243 pp. $35.00, ISBN 0-8122-3643-2.
 * Uplift: The Bra in America. Jane Farrell-Beck and Colleen Gau. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2002)
 * "burnbra" :
 * http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.htm
 * [http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.htm

Red Hot Mamas (bra-burning) Snopes.com Urban Legends] DumZiBoT (talk) 11:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Fixed Mgoodyear (talk) 21:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Bra burning
W. Joseph Campbell, professor of communication at American University, details in his June 17, 2010, blog post that author Jon Katz claims to have personally witnessed a small fire in the Freedom Trash Can:

“I quite clearly remember the ‘Freedom Trash Can,’ and also remember some protestors putting their bras into it along with other articles of clothing, and some Pageant brochures, and setting the can on fire,” Katz said. “I am quite certain of this. I recall and remember noting at the time that the fire was small, and quickly was extinguished, and didn’t pose a credible threat to the boardwalk. I noted this as a reporter in case a fire did erupt.”

'Twould be interesting to add to the article.  howcheng  {chat} 03:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, a blog is a self-published source and per Wikipedia guidelines for reliable sources, should not be used as a source. His recollection also directly contradicts that of others who were present, as described on Snopes.com. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 06:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you read the blog post? And have you read who the author of it is? Yes, a blog is a self-published source, but the blog is by scholar who is having a book published soon that will include that information. As WP:RS says, "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article" (in this case, the author is an expert on myths perpetuated by the media). And yes, that claim contradicts other public statements on the event, but that contradiction is the entire point. Katz is not an untrustworthy source and he has notes from the time that state he saw a fire, albeit a very small and short-lived one. In fact, Campbell's book was all about how bra burning is a myth (as you can see from this May 3, 2010, blog post), but in the course of research, he found something new. The Snopes article states that the New York Post was the source of the story, but W. Joseph Campbell dug up the article from the Atlantic City Press where the author of the news article also claimed to have witnessed burning. Once the book gets published, you'd be OK with including this information?  howcheng  {chat} 20:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

15th-century brassieres discovered
Linen brassieres not much unlike modern ones have been found dating to the 15th century. Powers T 00:18, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Greek section
I deleted the modern drawings from the Greek section and replaced them with photographs of actual representations from antiquity. I couldn't find or recall any ancient statue that the drawing of Aphrodite removing her breast band was supposed to be based on; it just seemed really ahistorical, and the face was certainly not taken directly from an ancient Greek work.

I also deleted the sentence about Degas's painting of Spartan women, since it was potentially misleading: this is an artistic recreation, not a scholarly attempt to reconstruct the dress of ancient Spartans, so it's not really relevant to a history of the bra. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Life is too short
In History of brassieres, seemingly nothing changed historically regarding bras. I tried to improve that by adding: "The 2000s brought two large design changes to the bra. The molded one-piece, seamless bra cup became ubiquitous. They are heat-molded around round forms of synthetic fibers that keep their rounded shape. This construction can include padded bras, contour bras and so-called T-shirt bras. Also new and ubiquitous in the 2000s was the popularity of printed designs such as floral or patterned prints. With matching panties, underwear is often nearly indistinguishable from two-piece bathing suits."

However somebody decided to improve on wiki policy and deleted the entire thing. It seems that person would rather take Wiki policy a step farther and REQUIRE citations for UNCHALLENGED info in this article, since it's so important and precision is critical. If this vandalism looked rational, I'd try to argue it's unchallenged and fairly obvious and not likely to be challenged, thus OK, —but then an obstructionist would only need to challenge it, THEN delete to "follow policy." I'm not really going to try and hassle with somebody in obstruction or article-ownership mine-mine mode...or whatever motivates uncooperation and the apparent need to destroy other people's efforts. (It's an underwear article.)

However, I will revert and include some notes here, should somebody else want to deal with that or revisit their actions.

http://adventuresinbrafitting.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/the-monoculture-of-molded-cups/ JULY 29, 2013 The Monoculture of Molded Cups " Molded bras as far as the eye can see! I had to really dig to find bras made of fabric, not molded foam, " --- http://www.brawise.com/bra-talk/molded-cup-bras/ Molded Cup Bras Popular seamless bras aren't for every woman Posted by Monique | Feb 11, 2008 "Have you noticed how popular molded cup bras have become? All you have to do is walk into any La Senza on the planet, and you will be overwhelmed by the sheer variety of size, shape and color available. Women have fallen in love with these undergarments because of the nice smooth line you get under even the most form-fitting fashions. Molded contour and seamless cups are a fairly recent arrival on the lingerie scene. Previously, shape and support was achieved through fabric and seaming."

"The factory takes nylon or polyester tricot fabric and heat forms it over various styles of breast molds to achieve the cup’s final shape. Molded cups can be a single piece of fabric or fused with a thin layer of foam or fiberfill for a more rigid, non-collapsing style. These more rigid cups are called contour cups." --- http://www.biggerbras.com/guides-fitting-help/bra-types-revealed/molded-bras-01-what-is-a-molded-bra.shtml What is a Molded Bra? --- http://adventuresinbrafitting.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/the-monoculture-of-molded-cups/ --- http://www.biggerbras.com/guides-fitting-help/bra-types-revealed/molded-bras-03-when-to-wear-a-molded-bra.shtml You can find molded bras in: Sport bra styles Nursing bra styles T-shirt bra styles Plunge bra styles Longline bra styles Minimizer styles --- http://www.herroom.com/bra-fitting-advice,911,30.html Bra Cup Styles: Expert Bra Fitting Advice by Tomima Edmark bra fitting? A full cup bra will not cause a visible line or indentation along the top of the breasts, so is a great design choice under form-fitting clothing. ... Full cups are very common in sports ... Before molded cups, seamed cups were the only bra cup option. ... a more rounded shape to the breast tissue while also being very supportive. --- http://thehairpin.com/2011/01/the-tyranny-of-the-t-shirt-bra-do-you-live-in-fear-of-your-own-nipples The Tyranny of the T-Shirt Bra: Do You Live in Fear of Your Own Nipples? By Bonnie Downing | January 13, 2011 Jan 13, 2011 - Foamy, modern, molded bras have taken over more than their share of the bra market. They seem ..

It started about a decade ago. They’re more swimsuity than swimsuits. --- http://www.fashion-era.com/bras_after_1950.htm Bras Fashion History - After 1950 --- http://www.fashion-era.com/bras_after_1950.htm#Bioform Bras - The First Miracle Of The Millennium 2000

Bioform Bras - The First Miracle of the Millennium 2000 The sides are quite firm pre moulded plastic materials that replace under wires,

--71.137.156.36 (talk) 19:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)Cheers!

Spurious "Edict of Strasbourg"
While I can find numerous secondary references to the so-called "Edict of Strasbourg", they are 100% in relation to the quote attributed to that event:


 * "An edict of Strasbourg dated 1370 states "no woman will support the bust by the disposition of a blouse or by tightened dress"."

I can't find any independent references to the Edict of Strasbourg in any other sources. I think this wide-spread quote is self-perpetuating and without a viable primary source. The citation has even crept into someone's dissertation on breast implants. When I searched solely for ""edict of Strasbourg" -dated -1370" eliminating "dated" and "1370", I came up empty.

I'm going to search more, but if I can't find a primary reference to that event, I'm going to remove it. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 00:46, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

China
The word "China" doesn't not automatically make its content "ancient". If the material being covered is only from the Ming Dynasty forward, it needs to be integrated with the modern section or—if the modern section is completely ed toward European fashions (as in the current form of this article)—it needs to go in a separate post-Renaissance section of the page. — Llywelyn II   04:13, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

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The 1950s
"«Following the Second World War, material availability, production and marketing, and demand for a greater variety of consumer goods, including bras.»" What's the principal verb in the quoted sentence above? I guess it could be "grew, increased" or something similar. --Filippof (talk) 10:45, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Inventor of the bra
Otto Tittsling was refeenced by Peter Cook as the inventor of the Bra in a Joan Rivers talk show for the BBC 1986 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.82.178 (talk) 15:47, 17 November 2018 (UTC)