Talk:History of climate change science/Archive 1

General
I've just posted this new article after working on it in sandbox form, and I hope people start making improvements! Some suggestions where it can use help, in my opinion: it ignores the history of paleoclimate science after the 1800s (and I think that subject really deserves its own article, but maybe could be developed as a section here in the meantime); it doesn't discuss greenhouse gases other than CO2 and water vapor and is really focused on CO2; and each period could use some fleshing out. Still, I hope it's a decent start.Brian A Schmidt (talk) 22:51, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Erratic photo

 * Thanks. Quick Q: is File:Val Masino Findling.JPG really an erratic? Looks rather spiky and in a valley - why isn't it just a fallen boulder? William M. Connolley (talk) 10:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Might be a bad choice - it was listed at wikimedia "glacial erratic" page but I suppose could be wrong. A substitute would be welcome.  One that I looked at was RaisedBeachSaaremaa.JPG - in the Scandinavian area where they first suspected climate change and pretty clearly an erratic, but the modern guy in the frame might be offputting.  Maybe Siebenschneiderstein_1.jpg instead?Brian A Schmidt (talk) 14:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Switched photo to a different erratic. Brian A Schmidt (talk) 01:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's probably just my browser or something, but the image you chose doesn't show up in the article for me. -Atmoz (talk) 02:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. I can see it in Firefox and IE.  Do you see the other thumbnail above, with the man in the picture?  I guess we could use that one instead.Brian A Schmidt (talk) 15:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A little experimenting shows I can see it fine for any size thumbnail except 300px, which is what I have set as the default. Even after clearing the cache, history, etc. Odd. I changed the thumbnail size to 300px. If that renders for you, I guess it's probably a problem on my end. -Atmoz (talk) 15:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And now I can't see the 300px version - it doesn't render. Using a different computer, I can still see the photo on the main page.  I don't know what to do - if you're using an unusual browser, maybe don't change the photo, otherwise go ahead and change it to something that works for you? Brian A Schmidt (talk) 20:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Problems with this article
Where is the discussion of scientific inquiry into the sun's role? Vulcanism? It also seems to suggest that no one had idea that the climate on earth changes before European scientists came up with the theory. This ethnocentric nonsense is easily disproven by the numerous societies whose folk traditions include stories and legends dealing with climate change. This article also seems to cherry pick articles to advance a particular viewpoint. This is an encyclopedia, so an essay advancing a particular case isn't appropriate. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the article could use a discussion of the discovery of Milankovitch Cycles and other solar forcings, and discovery of the impact of natural and anthropic aerosols on climate. They're on my to-do list although maybe someone else will get to them first, which would be great.  Better still in my opinion is if someone writes a history of paleoclimate science that discusses the discovery of natural forcings.


 * Regarding cultural beliefs, this article is about the history of the science, not culture. But maybe a short section on cultural beliefs prior to scientific developments would be appropriate.  In particular I'd like to mention Shen Kuo: "He also proposed a hypothesis of gradual climate change, after observing ancient petrified bamboos that were preserved underground in a dry northern habitat that would not support bamboo growth in his time."  That actually sounds like science to me, although I don't see any evidence his theory was ever picked up by Chinese or other scholars.Brian A Schmidt (talk) 22:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your response. If you're open to those improvements then I'm encouraged. I understand your point about climate science verse cultural beliefs and traditions, but I think context is always helpful and avoids ethnocentrism and misleading information (in this case the idea that no one realized the earth's climate is unstable). It also makes for a better and more interesting article.
 * My biggest concern is that the article focuses almost exclusively on human induced factors, ingoring the 4 billion some odd years before that (some of which relate and shed light on what happens when there are high CO2 levels). IN addition to the issues mentioned above there are also asteroid events, mass extinctions and other climate related issues and events that should be included. A lot of the science seems to get thrown out in favor of the politics, which is unfortunate I think. Righteous advocacy should never promote ignorance. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you've got one or two cultural references that we could add to Shen Kuo, we could start writing that section.
 * There are other climate forcings, too - oceanic methane release, Deccan Traps outgassing, faint young sun, even pre-biotic atmosphere. Maybe we should have a section on other anthropic forcings, another on currently active natural forcings, and a third on past natural forcings.  That's assuming there's enough to write an historical account - some of these are so newly discovered that they might not belong in a history article. Brian A Schmidt (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This article is about cl ch *sci*, so is inevitably going to be dominated by "the West". Hopefully we can leave the culture wars out. I'm wary that SK may have been over-interpreted. The statements you quote are supported by Chan and Needham, and I'd like to see what the originals actually say beofore trusting someone else's paraphrase William M. Connolley (talk) 17:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ref 99 is Chan 15, which is presumably this. I can't see that as supporting the statement given William M. Connolley (talk) 17:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I read Chan and searched for bamboo throughout. I agree it doesn't support the claim.  I couldn't find Needham online. Brian A Schmidt (talk) 03:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree the article is about climate change science and that it will include a lot of modern and western sourced content. But the very first sentence of the article says: "The history of the discovery of climate change began in the early 1800s when natural changes in paleoclimate were first suspected." But climate change wasn't first suspected in the early 1800s. As we all know and is well documented in folk lore, climate change was known to exist by many peoples well before then. So this opening sentence is inaccurate and needs to be rewritten or clarified. I'm not trying to make the article about climate change in traditional cultures, but to ignore that people were aware of climate change long before Europe's alchemists came along is misleading. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I changed the lead to "The history of the scientific discovery of climate change...." That still might shortchange SK a little, or maybe not depending on William's concerns.  I think a short section at the tail end of the article would be okay though with a title something like "Antecedents to the scientific discovery of climate change" could talk about SK (if he checks out) and one or two other examples.  The other examples would be interesting if derived from some type of actual cultural knowledge or investigation, instead of simply a mythical belief much like the European belief in the Great Flood. Brian A Schmidt (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Text donation
We made History of global warming, having forgotten about this page. So I've redirected it; the text was William M. Connolley (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me, esp. if someone wants to try to merge the texts.Brian A Schmidt (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

In the early 1800's
...in the early 1800s when natural changes in paleoclimate were first suspected and the natural greenhouse effect first quantified... was it? Is this in ref to Fourier? I don't think he quantified the GHE William M. Connolley (talk) 22:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * How about ... and the natural greenhouse effect first identified...? Or something else?Brian A Schmidt (talk) 00:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Let's tone down all these refs to 'natural'. Are humans and the effects of our intelligence or lack of it 'unnatural' in the cosmos? Of course not. "...in the early 1800s when changes in the paleoclimate were first suspected and the greenhouse effect was first identified..." Does that still work? --Nigelj (talk) 08:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I changed quantified to identified. I think natural is valuable there because no one focussed on the possibility of artificial warming, except for some land use effects.  Don't have a strong opinion about it though.Brian A Schmidt (talk) 23:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Prior to the 1700s, scientists had not suspected that prehistoric climates were different from the modern period.
I am wondering if this section shouldn't mention religion. In those far-off days creationism and/or uniform-planetism were powerful ideas, and affected what people could say William M. Connolley (talk) 10:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

THSI
I took out THSI. We don't need a non-RS to back up an RS William M. Connolley (talk) 07:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have any evidence that it isn't an RS? Uninvolved editors at the RS noticeboard were split on it.  I would say, based on that, that we should discuss if the information it is used to introduce is dodgy or not.  I used it to only to state that Joseph Fourier's research was active around 1824.  You removed the source, not the information, so I take it that the information is not disputed.  If the information is OK, then how can you dispute the source for it?  If you believe so, then you would have to remove both. Cla68 (talk) 07:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Dismissing for a moment the RS issue - is the HSi really a reference for the information that you used it for? Specifically that particular sentence is saying quite a bit more than just than "Fourier wrote a paper". Does the HSi contain that sentence/information? If not ... then why are you using it as a reference? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Broecker (1975)
Stefan Rahmstorf, an oceanographer at Potsdam, has produced a review of an important 1975 paper by Wally Broecker, which is significant for the earliest, or one of the earliest, uses of the term "global warming" in the academic literature, and for an attempt to quantify the effects of increased anthropogenic carbon dioxide on global temperatures. This is a resource which in my opinion might prove useful in providing a perspective on the earlier literature from the point of view of a modern climate scientist currently active in the field. It is published at RealClimate, a source of expert commentary on the field. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tasty monster (talk • contribs) 15:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/07/happy-35th-birthday-global-warming/

Tasty monster (=TS ) 15:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Article assessment
I have assessed this article as C-class on the WikiProject History of Science quality scale. It is very, very close to meeting the B-class criteria, and possibly higher criteria too.


 * There are a few significant unsourced statements need to be explicitly supported by inline references to reliable sources. ("By the early 1980s, the slight cooling trend from 1945-1975 had stopped.", "Milanković's ideas became the consensus position in the 1970s", "Better spectrography in the 1950s" etc).
 * There are a few technical terms which are neither explained nor linked. ("spectography", "infrared absorption", "particulate").

Not directly related to the B-class criteria, but worth considering for higher classes:


 * The copyright status of the portrait of Arrhenius is not certain. It is claimed to be in the public domain, but it could easily still be protected by copyright depending on the date of death of the photographer. The Commons image description page is unhelpful.. "Larger Version. PD I think".

Despite the above, I would like to express how much I enjoyed the article, and how much I learned from it. It is exceptionally well written and it deserves recognition.

Thparkth (talk) 02:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * "spectrography", "infrared absorption", and "particulate" are now wikilinked. (I was not able to find the term "spectography" in the article.) Q Science (talk) 04:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * "Better spectrography in the 1950s" is already referenced to http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm which states "during the 1950s" there "were new data for the absorption of infrared radiation" and "the most important CO2 absorption lines did not lie exactly on top of water vapor lines". IMO, that should be ok. Q Science (talk) 05:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be best to say "new spectrographic data" rather than "better spectrography". The present wording seems to suggest that the practice of spectrography itself became "better" in the 1950s, which of course it probably did, but the source doesn't support that. And "better" can be a problematic word; better than what? Better in which way? I don't see any reason to use it when the source doesn't do so. Thparkth (talk) 10:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposed revision
As suggested by some of the comments, I'm thinking of doing a substantial reworking to include, in the appropriate chronological sections, material on Milankovich cycles, solar forcing, aerosols, and other greenhouse gases. -Spencer Weart (talk) 20:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Al Gore
Tsk tsk, no mention of Al Gore. --2610:E0:A040:7EFD:D53D:D28B:1BF5:A112 (talk) 21:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

He's not a climate scientist, but a publicist. This article is about the science. Spencer Weart (talk) 00:33, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

David Hume
David Hume in his essay "On the Populousness of Ancient Nations", claims, citing several ancient writers that the climate of Europe used to be colder in the ancient times, and proposes that human activity is the reason for change: "Allowing, therefore, this remark to be just, that Europe is become warmer than formerly; how can we account for it? Plainly, by no other method, than by supposing, that the land is at present much better cultivated, and that the woods are cleared, which formerly threw a shade upon the earth, and kept the rays of the sun from penetrating to it."

Is that worthy of inclusion? Aquila89 (talk) 23:21, 20 December 2013 (UTC) David Hume is always good ;)

Climategate
Climategate exposition of the reality of the climate change science is undeniable. Why on earth there is not a single section about it on this article???? We have tons, more than enough reliable sources to add a section about how IPCC has been corrupting the peer review process and how the main scientists have fudged the data of temperature measurements.Echofloripa (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see any of these reliable sources cited by you here. --Nigelj (talk) 16:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, the Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident is still under investigation. Secondly, although, it has effected public perceptions, the controversy over the emails has not changed the science behind AGW one iota.--CurtisSwain (talk) 22:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * And even if the email hacks led to a change in scientific understanding (highly doubtful), this is a history article that stops in 1988 and labels everything that follows as "modern". At some future point there might be a reason to break off a period ending later than 1988 and include it in the historical period, but I don't see the justification for doing that now. Brian A Schmidt (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Where is the discussion of prominent scientists and authors who have been literally shouted down for focusing on the complete lack of correlation between temperature variations and C02 levels? Michael Crichton (Jurassic Park, The Andromeda Strain, Timeline) wrote a footnoted novel, State of Fear,  effectively dispelling the idea that the earth's temperature was increasing based on increased greenhouse gasses,  which received no attention in the article despite the fact that he was a Harvard trained physician and scientist, scientifically published and, because of his wealth from his multiple best selling science fiction novels, immune to being pressured in his analysis.  So Al Gore, a politician with absolutely no scientific credentials and a horrible track record both academically and legislatively (not to mention selling his network to Al Jezeera and using his political clout to allow it to become a legitimate news organization), is featured as a source??

Here is the problem in a nutshell: while it is relatively easy to explain the inherent contradictions in the "evidence" of human caused global warming, it should be just as easily demonstrated that the evidence supports man induced climate change. Yet virtually none of the articles, "references", statements, accusations, threats and denunciations made by the supporters of global warming ever attempt to explain the evidence. It is always referred to as "undeniable" or "consensus" or some other sales-based language. Why? Why not feature the simple explanations and empirical evidence of human induced global warming so intelligent people can make up their own minds? The reason is they can't and the emails and uncovered exchanges between the proponents document this irrefutably. They cannot focus on the evidence because virtually all the "evidence" is almost laughable when intelligent, educated (and unbiased) people study it. You don't need to have a PhD in climatology to see the utter lack of correlation of temperatures over the past 150 years (greenhouse gasses only began being emitted in quantities about half way into the industrial revolution), with the levels of Co2 and other man made gases. Apply Occum's Razor to the studies supporting global warming and they fall apart. Go to the summation pages of the articles from other wise legitimate scientists and what you'll find is that the actual scientific conclusions are contrary to establishing man-made global warming but the concluding remarks are mealy mouthed platitudes about how the earth's climate is "constantly changing" and we should "consider the effects of man-made green house gases". Translation: "our findings are directly contrary but if the people paying the bill and all these government, media and enviormenta types want a platitude at the end, fine, just keep funding me." Why do you think that every single attempt to bring legal action against the "instigators" of global warming has been dismissed in the very early stages? I'll give you a couple of clues: Federal Rule of Procedure 11 fines the lawyers as well as the parties for prosecuting frivolous and unsupported cases. The U.S. Supreme Court handed down Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals in 1993, making junk science inadmissable. It followed up a few years later with Komho Tire v. Carmichael, which prevented expert testimony from so-called "experts" with little or no actual and practical background in the specific area of their testimony. No decent lawyer has been willing to risk his or her Bar license to pursue something they couldn't prove and would likely get upbraided and fined by a federal judge for bringing - and consider how many liberal federal judges have been appointed in the past decade. This article, like many in Wikipedia, is monitored by interested and funded parties to ensure that contrary positions are quickly edited out. The article needs revision to make it a fair evaluation of the evidence rather than propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cirrussea (talk • contribs) 03:17, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Quality issue
The whole interaction with natural causes is lacking, e.g. the sun spot cycle, sea circulation, or volcanoes,  water vapor is nearly completely left out, same for land use patterns, which play in the same league as CO2. The whole article has no idea of the historical issues connected. Serten II (talk) 09:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Make some effort to fix it, before tagging. I don't think what you're arguing for even belongs here William M. Connolley (talk) 10:10, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Lets say, "climate change science" stands for all inputs, from the gulf stream to sun spots. Land use patterns is the most important sector that has not being addressed. I had a look again, propbaly its better to delete the whole section. What you intend, User:William M. Connolley ? Serten II (talk) 10:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Consensus begins to form, 1980-1988
Point is, Consensus was not begin to form out of the blue, nor was it required for the major breakthroughs in athmospheric policy of the 80ies, the Ozone regulation nor the acid rain issues, which was solved predominantly on the national level. Managing and manufacturing consensus took a while as well within the IPCC. The FAR did not have formal requirements for consensus nor had it been asked for by the major clients, governments. Consensus was being asked for and stated by a single scientist, Houghton, as an important means of communication to the public. The whole consensus business startet to gain formal importance with the SAR. Serten II (talk) 09:03, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


 * This is all secondary WP:COATRACK type material. Dmcq (talk) 15:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


 * If you claim a consensus was formed, you need to involve those studies that actually deal with it. No consensus on the deletion of significant scholarly material on that. I ask to reinstall te previous state.  Serten II (talk) 19:08, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Serten, with your social science blinkers you're overlooking the point that scientific consensus began to form outwith the IPCC. Please desist. . dave souza, talk 19:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Social science scholars actually describe that process, wherever you might stand. Why are you trying to ignore them? If I have overlooked a study, that proofs your claim, I would be happy to insert it. Serten II (talk) 19:55, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Doubtless there's good scholarship on the topic, but you seem to have forgotten that this is an overall history of climate change science, not a history of the IPCC. Your proposal was out of sequence and appeared simply a coatrack to introduce your as yet undefined "IPCC consensus". How about making some proposals on this talk page, either linking to online sources or explaining with quotations exactly what your sources say on the matter? . . dave souza, talk 20:24, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

OK. Regarding your friendly request dave souza, I have other projects and will continue to work on my draft, but I suggest to use some of the sources and sections from the Draft:IPCC consensus here.
 * This entry is in so far no "historical" article, I envisage it as a, sorry to say, rather amateurish perspective. The section "Consensus begins to form, 1980-1988" direly needs to be adressed properly.
 * I recommand  as a start,  and  for current issues,
 * The article currently leaves out all of that. Its part of the Oreske and others (quoted in Goodwin 2009) urging for action in the style of "science has said it, stand at order" approach and conveys a statement of authority sounding like "Believe them, they are the experts". Thats about the "Consensus" as a rhetorical means, a statement of authority. So what? Boring bullshit, so 1980ies. For 2014 ff Daniel Sarewitz in Nature and Draft:IPCC_consensus has some real life examples.
 * The article could instead provide an impression of the rather complex constructs and interactions of the Interactional expertise and Science of team science issues involved, the point that consensus was neither needed nor required or useful to address complex issues - like ozone - is lacking completely. Serten II (talk) 00:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


 * There is no unanimity among social scientists on the points you put in so any views should eb attributed to the individuals. But more importantly this is not a detailed history of when the IPCC documented things. I am happy enough that there be an article about the IPCC decision process and a history of it be on Wikipedia but you really do have to take onboard that for instance when somebody's work is called 'original' in social sciences it does not mean the reviewer agrees with it or it is the general opinion. Dmcq (talk) 21:36, 19 December 2014 (UTC)


 * As said, your statement is naive. For real life, see Daniel Sarewitz in Nature and Draft:IPCC_consensus. Actually Goodwin 2009 provided a detailed history of the IPCC consensus making. Serten II (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sarewitz seems rather naive, appearing to be unaware that the UAH satellite temperature dataset dispute was resolved by a unified scientific voice finding errors in the satellite version. Not that it resolved the political debate, of course, as John and Roy continued and the trust given them by "skeptics" was undimmed. Rather contrary to Goodwin's ideas about how to gain trust. . dave souza, talk 22:26, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You might like to read Goodwin in, particularly the section on the first page 'The Centrality of Trust for Successful Science Communication' and you might understand why it is destructive of Wikipedia to always be pushing your point of view into everything. Try and develop IPCC consensus with how its process works and the various criticisms but leave your biases out thanks. For instance in that draft article the 'Communication and knowledge policy model' section leads with three sentences that all criticize it. Two of the criticisms have been made without attribution as if it was general opinion. Dmcq (talk) 14:14, 20 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I would prefer to have this discussion being moved to the draft, OK Dmcq? Please try to get the difference between description and criticisms, if you don't, you may risk sounding like a evangelical doubting Schleiermacher's Biblical criticism. Serten II (talk) 17:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Amusing reference, not least its links to the Fundamentalist–Modernist Controversy which has influenced several fundamentalist so-called "skeptics". But perhaps rather a digression, with an unfortunate hint of personal attack?. . dave souza, talk 22:26, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Lets say, I am intending mild mockery, but my attacking style is different. Rest on your talk page. Serten II (talk) 03:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Putting for instance 'However science does not serve at all as a real proxy for political debate in general nor with respect to climate change.' at the end of the first paragraph is not a description, it is a criticism, never mind your 'in popular terms, a "trust me, I am an expert" approach'. Never mind that 'has been described as' is not a substitute for attribution to those who have the opinion. That article is never going to make it to main article space with such blatant POV. Dmcq (talk)


 * "However science does not serve at all as a real proxy for political debate in general nor with respect to climate change" is based on the Collins and Evans general rule, and proven in various cases. Suggest a rewording and stay civil, OK? Serten II (talk) 03:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It should go in the criticism section and be attributed, not into the first paragraph of the description. I believe the 'mild mockery' and other comments showing contempt are an effort to drive away opposition to sticking your own thoughts as being majority opinion into Wikipedia. I get the feeling that your way of doing things is something you have learnt you should do, rather like the way economics students often learn from their studies that they should be totally selfish because that's how they say the market works. Please try and learn a better way. Dmcq (talk) 10:14, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Caption Under Arrhenius Photo
The caption states that Arrhenius estimated a 5-6°C increase in temperature for doubling of CO2. However, I have been unable to find any mention of that estimate in any of his work from that year. As his page points out, his estimate was at 2.5-3 times the CO2 which resulted in an estimate of 8-9°C at the poles (he also tested at 0.5-0.6 and 1.5 times, the former which he estimated a 4-5°C decrease).--Leafsdude (talk) 18:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Bit removed from Climate change denial that may be of interest here
The first two paragraphs of the History section of the Climate change denial article are candidates for radical trimming, they are general history rather than about the denial. Here  is a link to before anything happens in case you think there's anything useful that might be worth putting in this article. Dmcq (talk) 20:56, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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Connection between Milankovitch Cycles and human emissions
"By the 1990s, as a result of improving the fidelity of computer models and observational work confirming the Milankovitch theory of the ice ages, a consensus position formed: greenhouse gases were deeply involved in most climate changes and human caused emissions were bringing discernible global warming"

Exactly what was the connection between the Milankovitch Cycles and and green house gases and human caused emissions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:540:C400:8C80:113D:F08A:4ABE:2C0C (talk) 03:05, 20 January 2018 (UTC)


 * That extra carbon dioxide would lead to warming has been known as a qualitative fact for a long time, but there are a lot of confounding factors. To be able to put actual quantitative figures on the effect one really needs to be able to model the climate and check that the model reflects what has happened in the past, over the ice ages is about the minimum to see global temperatures rising and falling. Dmcq (talk) 12:29, 20 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Quoted without context as you do the sentence at first looks odd. But it is correct, and in context more obviously so. GHG are indeed involved in lots of climate change; most particularly in recent global warming but also in the ice age cycles. Note that "deeply involved" != "causes" William M. Connolley (talk) 17:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

1958 education film produced by Frank Capra warns of Global Warming from CO2 emissions
n 1958, Director Frank Capra made a movie for Bell Labs to explain the expected effects of 'Global Warming'. The filmmaker Capra, was also a scientist who graduated from California Institute of Technology in 1918 and did many science films for education. In one of them, The Unchained Goddess (1958) Capra warns of Global Warming caused by CO2 emissions of human burning of fossil fuels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-AXBbuDxRY http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/frank-capra-warns-of-global-warming-1958 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.191.24.204 (talk) 21:32, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Vitruvius
This part was unsourced since 2013, "Vitruvius, in the first century BC, describes a series of ancient cities that lined the Anatolian peninsula from south to north along the Aegean sea, he then comments that they long ago were engulfed by the seas[citation needed] – presently these ancient cities[which?] are again out of water.[citation needed]" I've looked it up but only could find something related. (Revision). Vitruvius, however, also wrote things like this, "the sun absorbs moisture and draws it out of trees as well as out of the earth", or "dig in places where vapours are seen curling and rising up into the air. This sign cannot show itself in a dry spot.", or "The winds are witnesses to this fact. Those that are produced and come from the coolest directions, the north and northeast winds, blow in blasts that are rarefied by the great dryness in the atmosphere, but the south wind and the others that assail us from the direction of the sun's course are very damp, and always bring rain, because they reach us from warm regions after being well heated there, and licking up and carrying off the moisture from the whole country, they pour it out on the regions in the north." http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20239/20239-h/20239-h.htm prokaryotes (talk) 00:28, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

FA Nomination

 * Suggestion page, for commenting on this nomination visit here.
 * Nomination page prokaryotes (talk) 00:42, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Pinging topic authors, ideas for improvement?, , , , , , , , , , , . prokaryotes (talk) 04:31, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Losing Earth
New York Magazine did a lengthy feature on the history of climate science and attempts to translate that into policy between the 1979s and 1988. It covers some things this article doesn't (like the importance of the data NASA obtained from the Pioneer's visit to Venus). Probably a decent source for improving this article, or at least a pointer towards overlooked material. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 13:11, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I read that article myself and although I think it probably does provide some useful data to improve the article, I think we should be cautious because it's basic premise is (to me) flawed. To claim that the climate change monster could have been tamed by a treaty back in the late 80's is a little silly on it's face. Whether the treaty was binding or not, it likely would have been violated or withdrawn from (much like Kyoto) as power demands have risen from emerging nations like China. Based on this (and some other things I noticed), I think caution is advised.Rja13ww33 (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I read that article myself and although I think it probably does provide some useful data to improve the article, I think we should be cautious because it's basic premise is (to me) flawed. To claim that the climate change monster could have been tamed by a treaty back in the late 80's is a little silly on it's face. Whether the treaty was binding or not, it likely would have been violated or withdrawn from (much like Kyoto) as power demands have risen from emerging nations like China. Based on this (and some other things I noticed), I think caution is advised.Rja13ww33 (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Alexander von Humboldt
According to his biography The Invention of Nature (p57), Alexander von Humboldt proposed human-induced climate change in 1800 while studying the effect of deforestation near Lake Valencia in South-America. I'm not sure whether this falls under the scope of the current article. A quote: "When forests are destroyed, as they are everywhere in America by the European planters, with an imprudent precipitation, the springs are entirely dried up, or become less abundant. The beds of the rivers, remaining dry during a part of the year, are converted into torrents, whenever great rains fall on the heights. The sward and moss disappearing with the brush-wood from the sides of the mountains, the blah blah". Should we include this? It seems to mostly focus on climate change and hydrology.. Femke Nijsse (talk) 17:35, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Goals of climate change science
The robust history of geography) (from Greek: γεωγραφία, geographia, literally "earth description") a.k.a. 'earth measurement' includes physical geography and human geography (including migration, or spatial diffusion). Somehow this emerging ecological science is contextualized within a history of geography as a science.  Can we think of outlining the broader knowledge area and presenting an organized discussion of the shifting goals of climate change science (merely describing natural change and human roles in changing the face of the earth and of the earth's natural processings  ) to informing public policy through positioned public decisionmakers and private corporate decisionmakers and technology designers and/or through informing the general public in democratic societies because of their role in selecting positioned decisionmakers?  MaynardClark (talk) 19:59, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting that geography didn't develop with political and policy-making objectives? . . . dave souza, talk 21:35, 25 August 2019 (UTC)