Talk:History of coffee/Archive 1

Copyedit please
A few sections including the references need minor cleanup and copyediting to maintain the flow of sentences. Some of the sections need to be expanded, as details such as the USA's Boston Tea Party (which is relevant in the spreading of Coffee) are missing; compared with the Wikipedia Spanish Coffee article, section on History:. Thanks to anyone who can expand the article.

--130.194.13.106 11:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I did some copyediting but I agree that more info on the us is needed, as well as perhaps a restructuring of the article (pure chronology rather than by nation makes a lot more sense for a history article) Philmcl 18:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The note about coffee production in Australia is interesting, but seems highly inappropriate when important coffee growing regions (New Guinea,Timor,Sulawesi, Hawii) are not mentioned. Lacks neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.61.38.222 (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The Muslim World
"However, the popularity of the drink led these bans to be overturned in 1524 by an order of the Ottoman Turkish Sultan Selim I, with Grand Mufti Mehmet Ebussuud el-İmadi issuing a celebrated fatwa allowing the consumption of coffee."
 * According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selim_I Selim was dead by 1524, so either the date is wrong or the Sultan was not Selim I but Suleiman I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suleiman_the_Magnificent) --Müstear Efendi (talk) 12:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Question
Under the etymology heading, after a sentence-long explanation of where the word "coffee" originates, the next sentence is: "Its initial origin is uncertain." The initial origin of what is uncertain? I would just delete it, but I'm trying to see if the writer had a certain purpose in mind for this sentence that I'm not grasping. The origin of the word is obviously uncertain, since in just the last sentence it says qahwa is of uncertain etymology...Cela 16:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Cela. The sentence is unclear: "Its initial origin is uncertain."; IMHO I think whoever first added the sentence meant "qahwa" being of uncertain etymology. IMHO I think it can be safely deleted. --130.194.13.106 09:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm deleting it. Cela 18:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as the entry of the word 'coffee' into English, is there any non-incestuous citation of it fact coming in via Italian caffè? According to New Oxford American dictionary, "probably from Turkish via Dutch koffie." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.41 (talk) 17:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

removed contradiction
the prior version of this article said:
 * The first coffee plantation in the New World was established in Brazil (another contradiction: was the first in the islands or in Brazil?) in 1727 when Lt. Col. Francisco de Melo Palheta smuggled seeds from the French Guiana

this is indeed contradiction - Not only with the prior sentence (which says that the french first brought it to America), but also with itself. If Palheta smuggeled the seeds from French Guiana, it can't be the first in the new world. Felagund 08:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Coffee in Europe
The article states that coffee first appeared in Europe in Venice. While this sounds credible, I thought to mention a widely circulated story that coffee was first introduced to Europe when the Turkish army was repelled from invading Vienna. According to the account, the Viennese found many abandoned sacks of coffee (which hadn't previously been known in Europe) and began experimenting.

Unfortunately I don't have a reference.

Any comments?

--Philopedia 22:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Coffee had been traded in by Italian (Venicians especially) with the Turks before the debacle in Vienna. In fact, an argument over consuming the "infidel's wine" was settled by the Pope, in a pre-Vienna documented case, who felt that the Turks should not be able to monopolize such a wonderful drink. The Vienese first contact story is convienent, and simpler, and represents the earliest widespread European coffee consumption. But certainly it was well known to experienced mercahnts (as were other "new" commodities waiting to be "Discovered") —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric Forest (talk • contribs) 05:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Venice and Austria: Coffee was sold on the markets in Venice, but its first coffee house opened actually in 1683 (and therefore London and Oxford surprisingly beats Venice by 33 years). Coffee was of course also known in Vienna before the Turks sieged the city, but no cafe or establishment served the beverage officialy. The well known 'myth' is that "the first coffeehouse in Austria opened in Vienna in 1683 after the Battle of Vienna, by using supplies from the spoils obtained after defeating the Turks. The officer who received the coffee beans, Polish military officer of Ukrainian origin Jerzy Franciszek Kulczycki, opened the coffee house and helped popularize the custom of adding sugar and milk to the coffee. Melange is the typical Viennese coffee, which comes mixed with hot foamed milk and a glass of water.". Kulczycki -or Koltschitzky as he is known in Vienna- never opened a coffee house in Vienna. He is in 1783 'remembered' as the first coffee house owner of the 'Zur Blauen Flasche' ('Blue Bottle Café'), but there are no sources today to back this up. Kulczycki died only eleven years after the siege of Vienna, utterly poor at the age of fifty-four, from Tuberculosis. The first registration of any such licence to sell coffee in Vienna was given January 17th 1685 to an armenian trader and jeweller named Johannes Diodato -in the old documents also spelled 'Deodat'/'Theodat'-. The location was in the Hachenbergischen Haus in the 1. District in the street Rotenturmstrasse.

I would like a reference to the 3 000 coffee houses in England by 1675. The Swedish National Coffee Association writes - without stating their sources - that there were about 2 000 coffe houses only in London around 1660 (in Swedish). According to them, Oxford students were the first large group coffee drinkers in England. Therefor these places became meetingplaces for intellectuals. One went there to listen to discussions between the learned and the entrance was 1 penny. That's why they came to be called "Penny Universities".

^^ One credible source states that in 1739 there were 551 registred coffee houses in London, 144 of them in the city centre (Antony Wild 2004 'Coffee A Dark History' page 91)

The URL, currently footnote 9, to http://humboldtcoffee.com/History.htm doesn't work any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.28.113 (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

"According to Leonhard Rauwolf's 1583 account, coffee became available in England no later than the 16th century, largely through the efforts of the British East India Company and the Dutch East India Company." under the England heading. This cannot be right. The British and Dutch East India Companies were established at the end of 1600 and early 1602 respectively, so could not be responsible for the introduction of coffee in the 16th century. EEye (talk) 12:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

^^ Probably the usual "16th Century / The 1600's" mistake. Coffee was brought to England and consumed privately possibly before 1600, but import and serving the beverage is documented from around 1650.

women in coffehouses
It is simply untrue that "women were not allowed in coffeehouses." As Adrian Johns puts it in The Nature of the Book,

"'High Churchmen and nonconformists, gentlemen, retailers and mechanicks—and men and women, for the notion that coffeehouses excluded women is baseless—all flocked to this attraction'"

I will be changing the article accordingly. --Spudstud 06:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably in some places they were, others not, and it probably changed over time. One of the dangers of over-generalization.  When you make your edit, please help with this by making the context time- and place-specific! --Margareta 06:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh good. You did. Thanks!--Margareta 06:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

So probably we should make a similar clarification in the coffeehouse article proper (which also suggests that women were usually excluded). I'll at least add it to the discussion there, probably just by transplanting my comment above.--Spudstud 06:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Where and when are we talking about? In Austria, women were only allowed in coffee houses from the mid 1800's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.83.228.164 (talk) 07:05, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Major Work Needed
The page needs a lot of work.

History of Coffee says: The first coffeehouse in England was opened in St. Michael's Alley in Cornhill. Coffehouse says: The first Turkish coffeehouse in England was set up in Oxford by one Jacob or Jacobs, a Turkish Jew, in 1650. The answer is that nobody knows when the first coffeehouse was opened. Was it a tavern that served coffee? a restaurant? hotel? or a true dedicated coffee shop? We arent sure, and the article should reflect that.

"[Ethiopian] Monks ate the beans to help them stay awake during prayers. The leaves of the coffee tree, however, were used to make a beverage similar to tea." - wrong. Ethiopian holy men (not, strickly speaking, monks) and "average joes" ate the beans after mushing them to a pulp and making a ball (like Japanese rice balls). The religious use had little to do with "staying awake to pray" untill the beans reached the Suffis is Yemen. The tea like beverage described here is called Kuti, which is also mixed with husks, salt, and milk.

"This word [coffee] was created via Turkish kahve, which in turn came into being via Arabic qahwa, a truncation of qahhwat al-bun or wine of the bean." - Highly unlikely, because Arabic culture came into contact with Coffee before the Turks. At any rate, the Turks spoke Arabic as a second language, probably creating their own word in later.

"That women were not allowed in English coffeehouses during this period is a myth" - True, but incomplete. The reason this clarification is needed is because of the numerous pamphlets, allegedly written by women, against coffee. See the famous "Woman's Petition Against Coffee." The paragraph goes on to point out the coffee houses' democratizing effect, also true. But many shops barred certain people based on rank, smoking (or non), sex, and so on.

Somewhere in one of the coffee articles it sais that Cafe Procope was the first coffee shop in France - It was not, though it is the oldest still existing, and it founded by one of the baristas at the true first French shop (its name escapes me).

"We are indebted to these great [Arab] physicians for introducing coffee to the modern world through their writings, as well as sugar, tea, and chocolate" - Neither sugar nor chocolate were introduced from the Arab world. Tea was known to the Arab world, but given that there are so many herbal infusions which when described sound like (the) tea, its unclear. At any rate, tea only hit Europe on a large scale after coffee did when the Dutch started trading large scale (eventually England). Untill then it received only passing references from travellers like Polo. I realise this qoute in question was from a primary source, but it is both wrong and uncited. Either its fake or needs to be clarified.

"Austria and Poland"

The Franciszek Jerzy Kulczycki in question was not an officer. He recieved the beans for slipping behind enemeny lines as a spy, and probably was the only one who immediately recognised the beans for what they were, having lived in Turkey. The Melange is made usually with cream, not milk. Soemtimes topped with whip or chocolate, consumed in a special way, and sometimes also called a cappuccino (not like the Italian one) because of its colour/foam dollop.

I could go on. You left out the French smuggler who was responsible for bringing coffee to the new world, almost dying of dehidration and lack of sleep from gaurding the plant onbaord a ship.

I think the entire section on Coffee needs to be reworked, both for factual errors and confusing layout. Why, for example the "origin" and "history" section? The difference is slight and the information highly similar.

coffee prohibition
I would like to see more information about coffee prohibition throughout history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.121.134 (talk) 21:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge
Someone put that Origins of coffee should be merged here and I agree... until this article is fleshed out and well sourced there is no difference between the articles. gren グレン 00:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Social Aspects
I disagree with this merge. Social Aspects and History are very different, although I can see some overlap (such as the history of social aspects which might appear in both but are really slanted a bit differently... or at least should be- to focus on the respective article topic.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.104.68 (talk) 21:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

who discovered it?
i raised some issues with our account of the discovery at the Coffee talk page. I also included some helpful sources. I'm just a passerby, I hope you don't mind if I leave the editing to the hobbyists... Agradman appreciates civility/makes occasional mistakes 18:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Toussaint-Samat
Wetman, thanks for adding much useful content to this article. One thing: you've added material from Toussaint-Samat's History of Food. Unfortunately, this is a very very unreliable source, as I've noted in WikiProject_Food_and_drink/sources; see also the customer reviews at Amazon. Toussaint-Samat seems to have assembled material from wherever she could get it, with no critical evaluation of its quality; worse, she doesn't give sources for most of what she says. In this case, you mention that Toussaint-Samat's main source is Louis Figuier's La [sic] savant au foyer, a children's book ("Ouvrage illustré à l'usage de la jeunesse") from 1867, which hardly seems like a very reliable source itself. My tendency would be to ignore any claims based on Toussaint-Samat and to base the article on more solid sources. --macrakis (talk) 17:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, what is included from such a general popular history should certainly be corroborated from more scholarly sources. To be frank, I never read what Randy in-Boise thinks of books at amazon.com: I'm quite aware on my own account of Toussaint-Samat's limitations. I'd apologize for my typo, but it seems to have given you so much pleasure.--Wetman (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Some reviewers on Amazon are well-informed; some are not. A bit like WP editors....  But I find Amazon reviews useful for mentioning issues that might be worth following up on.  As it happens, when I've tried to check some of Toussaint-Samat claims, I've often found that they are nonsense.  For example, that 'candy' is related to Candia. I don't think it qualifies as a reliable source. --macrakis (talk) 18:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I hope you'll appreciate my improved citations: Toussaint-Samat seems not to have identified the right VOC bureaucrat. Food history, like gender history and gay history, does seem to be lax as history. Do you have a more dependable broad history? I'd be willing to give away my Toussaint-Samat to a friend who's more of a gourmet than a historian, and replace her in my bookcases.--Wetman (talk) 15:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Coffee in England
''In the UK, the first coffee house opened in 1650 in Oxford. The first London coffee house opened in 1652 in St Michael’s Alley, Cornhill. Lloyds of London was originally a Coffee Shop called “Edward Lloyds Coffee House”. London coffee houses were nicknamed “Penny Universities” because for the price of a cup of coffee you could sit and join in the stimulating conversation with the great thinkers of the day. Jonathon’s Coffee House in Change Alley was frequented by entrepreneurs and merchant venturers, and was the beginning of the London Stock Exchange. We use this source for 3000 coffee house by 1675'', but same source says that first coffeehouse was opened in Oxford, not in Cornhill. --  Bojan   Talk   09:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

chronology
So "coffee was banned by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church some time before the 12th century" but "the earliest credible evidence of either coffee drinking or knowledge of the coffee tree appears in the middle of the fifteenth century." Is this a contradiction? Charmii (talk) 12:04, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. I think the 12th century is wrong. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * By context, you'd think they meant 18th c. Charmii (talk) 23:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 12th century AH? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Yemen origin more likely
If coffee had originated in Ethiopia, why did it not spread to the the neighboring African lands, rather than across the sea over to the Arabian peninsula?! I am skeptical of the Ethiopian origin theory of coffee. Lugalbanda (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Origin of Omoro people
In the first lines of this article it is mentioned "the Russian's ancestors to current Omoro people". How could the Russians be ancestors to an African people? Maybe some typing error? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.209.99.6 (talk) 15:24, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Time line of coffee was added
Timeline of coffee has been added, based on the page Sejarah kopi. It has been translated from Indonesian into English.

サルマン (talk) 05:36, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I deleted the section as it was sloppy and unintelligible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.125.195.72 (talk) 04:26, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

New 'Slavery' section in article
Recently added text includes the following:

"In some areas of Brazil in the 1870s, some coffee holders held about 10 slaves each, depending on the size of the plantation. Slavery did not change throughout the 1900s."

Several other articles, including Atlantic Slave Trade, Abolitionism and Slavery in Brazil, give dates prior to 1900 for the abolition of slavery in Brazil. The above statement is sourced, but the dates should be verified by someone with access to that source. WCCasey (talk) 06:10, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

'Slavery' section in article
Recently added text includes the following:

"In some areas of Brazil in the 1870s, some coffee holders held about 10 slaves each, depending on the size of the plantation. Slavery did not change throughout the 1900s."

Several other articles, including Atlantic Slave Trade, Abolitionism and Slavery in Brazil, give dates prior to 1900 for the abolition of slavery in Brazil. The above statement is sourced, but the dates should be verified by someone with access to that source. WCCasey (talk) 06:10, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Possible Timeline Contradiction
If the earliest credible reference is the 15th century, how this article also state that "coffee was banned by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church some time before the 12th century"?

Dreslough (talk) 02:51, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Unencyclopaedic style and tone
Some parts of the section titled "Production" are currently written in a style or tone not suited to factual or encyclopaedic writing. For example "The first step in Europeans' wresting the means of production was effected by Nicolaes Witsen, the enterprising burgomaster of Amsterdam". The word "wresting" seems particularly unsuitable without considerably additional (referenced) justification. I suspect it is possible that this material is a cut and paste from an article intending to argue a specific political position.Anonymous watcher (talk) 20:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Timeline
This timeline was an original creation at the Portal:Coffee. i have removed it from there, as its original research without references, but someone here might find it useful to begin an ACTUAL timeline of coffee article:


 * > 5 AD The coffee was discovered in Ethiopia.
 * 700-1000 Coffee was first known by the Arabs as an energy drink . The spread of coffee was started simultaneously with the spread of Islam.
 * 1000 Ibn Sina investigated the chemical substance of coffee.
 * 1400 The spread of coffee and coffee shops rapidly in the Arabian peninsula, especially Mecca and Medina.
 * Coffee was introduced in 1453 in Constantinople by the Turks (Ottoman Caliphate). Coffee shop which was first recorded there, named Kiva Han, which opened in 1475.
 * 1600 Pope Clement VIII, confirmed to consider that the 'coffee culture' is a heresy, 'foreign culture' that can threaten the (infidel) and therefore sinful for those who drink it. But then he allowed if the 'coffee' into the (alternative) from the food / beverages are kosher eaten by a Christian. In that year, the coffee was brought from Mekkah to India (Asia Minor)by a man named Baba Budan when pilgrims return from Mekkah.
 * 1616 was brought from Mocha Coffee (Yemen) to the Netherlands.
 * 1645 The first coffee shop opened in Venice, Italy.
 * 1650 The first coffee shop opened in Christian countries (Christendom) precisely in the Oxford.
 * 1658 Dutch opened the first garden in Ceylon (Sri Lanka)
 * 1668 coffee shop 'Edward Lloyd's' opened in London. From this coffee shop and then Edward opened the most prominent insurance companies in the world of Lloyd's of London Insurance.
 * 1668 Coffee began to be known in North America.
 * 1669 The coffee shop was introduced in Paris by the Turkish ambassador to the king of Louis XIV.
 * 1670 London devoted to coffee. Coffee shop opened in every corner of London. Coffee was introduced in Germany. In Brazil, coffee cultivation began. Types of coffee grown is the Coffea Arabica Lind.
 * 1674 Women's Petition against coffee issued in London.
 * 1675 dish of tea (tea house) began to be introduced in the Netherlands. Previously there was just serving drinks beer / malt.
 * 1675 King Charles II closes all coffee shops in London.
 * 1679 in Marseilles, a chemist testified that French coffee is destructive and dangerous to human health.
 * 1679 The first coffee shop opened in Hamburg, Germany.
 * 1688 More than 800 local coffee shop opened in Soho (England). Especially by Christian refugees from the French Calvinists (Huguenots).
 * 1689 typical French Café first opened, named Café de Procope, although the atmosphere of crisis after the announcement of coffee harmful to health.
 * 1696 The first coffee shop called The King's Arms opened in New York.
 * A Dutch citizen named Zwaardecroon, brought some seeds from Mecca to Bogor, Indonesia. And, being the most important crops in the Dutch East Indies.
 * 1706 Java Coffee studied Dutch in Amsterdam.
 * 1714 Java Coffee researched, by Dutch introduced and planted in the Jardin des Plantes by King Louis XIV.
 * 1720 Florian stay open coffee shop in Florence.
 * 1723 Gabriel du Clieu bring coffee beans from France to Martinique.
 * 1727 Francisco de Ello brings coffee beans from France for planting in Brazil.
 * 1730 British planted coffee in Jamaica.
 * 1732 Johann Sebastian Bach composes "Coffee Cantata", in Leipzig. Kantata describes the spiritual journey as well as a parody of the fear of Germans against the rapid popularity of coffee in Germany (the German beer enthusiasts).
 * 1777 King of Germany (Prussia) announced a ban on criticism and coffee, and announced as the national drink German beer Kingdom.
 * 1790 British coffee shop is a typical beginning to disappear slowly replaced by a beer tavern (tavern).
 * 1802 Cafe as a word that shows the place was introduced in the UK (formerly coffee house). This word comes from the French word 'café' and almost seakar in Italian 'Caffe'. Café shows a place that is a main restaurant with a menu of coffee drinks.
 * 1809 Coffee was first imported from Brazil into the U.S. market in Salem, Massachusetts.
 * 1820 Substance Caffeine found in coffee drinks in unison by three different studies - and, of course, each researcher was working on their own - made by Runge, Robiquet, Pelletier and Caventou
 * 1822 prototype of an espresso coffee machine made in France.
 * 1839 The word 'Cafeteria' was introduced as the word hybrid (combined) from eksiko, Spain and England.
 * 1859 Michael Thonet's Vienna Café chair No.. 14 (bench particular coffee shop was first introduced as a 'bench suitable for use while sipping coffee. "
 * 1869 Coffee leaf rust (fungus coffee) was first discovered in Sri Lanka and coffee plants in Asia.
 * 1873 Coffee in bulk packaging was first introduced in America by John Arbukle.
 * 1882 The New York Coffee Exchange formed.
 * 1869 outbreak of a fungal disease across Asia that causes destruction of Coffea Arabica coffee manifold Lind, who was widely planted in Asia. Until this year, people started planting various kinds of coffee are numerous in the Congo region.
 * 1904 espresso machine made modern by Fernando Milly.
 * 1906 Brazil raises coffee prices after creating the price (exchange rate) fixed for the commodity coffee.
 * 1910 Germany makes decaf coffee (caffeine in coffee substance reduction to a minimum), Dan was introduced to America by the name Dekafa.
 * 1911 coffee traders in the U.S. to form the National Coffee Association.
 * 1915 Pyrex found. First used as a lamp lighting especially on the railroad as a heat-resistant lamp cover and weather or physical impact. Start introduced as a kitchen tool, as a substitute for glass. Coffee shop using a pyrex heat resistant glass.
 * 1920 coffee shop 'new' booming in America.
 * Vienna Café chair No. 1925. 14 were included in the exhibition L'esprit Nouveau in France by Le Corbusier. Until 1933 this bench model produced more than 50 million.
 * 1927 espresso coffee machines were first introduced in America. The first coffee shop wearing 'La Pavoni' in New York. Machine is specially designed by renowned Italian architect Gio Ponti.
 * 1928 Colombian Coffee Federation is formed.
 * 1930-1944 Coffee growers destroy 78 million bags of Brazilian coffee to stabilize prices.
 * 1938 Cremonesi: a piston pump that can spray hot water with high speed to brew coffee.
 * 1938 Nestle find instant coffee in Brazil, Nestle until now the largest producer of instant coffee in the world.
 * 1939-1945 U.S. forces bring instant coffee in the war and introduce it to the world.
 * 1942 People begin hoarding coffee due to wartime shortages. In England at this time coffee is rationed.
 * 1946 Gaggia Factory produces commercial cappuccino machine for the first time. The word cappuccino comes from the color of Capucin Coat.
 * 1948 Achille Gaggia invented the espresso coffee in bulk at Milan.
 * 1952 Gaggia machines imported into the UK. In this year's coffee shop after the second world war for the first time opened in London in July.
 * Espresso Bar 1953 spread all over Soho. The first time was on the road Mocha 29 Frith Street.
 * 1954 restricted the ownership of some commodities such as coffee ends with the end of the second world war transitional period.
 * Catherine Uttley 1957 there were 200 registered coffee bar in London. Starting a lot of coffee bars that use plastics ranging from kitchen equipment, dining, floor to furniture.
 * 1960 carrying coffee bar doubled from 1.000 to 2.000 across the UK, most in the London, about 500 pieces.
 * 1962 Peak of coffee consumption per capita in the United States, 3 cups per person per day.
 * 1962 International Agreement on trade in coffee is made, the intent is to control prices.
 * 1964 Coffee Bar dying in England, replaced by restaurants with a variety of dishes.
 * 1970 Mokha cynical café closed after complaints by American writer William S. Burrough.
 * 1971 Starbuck Outlet first opened in Seattle.
 * 1973 Fair Trade Coffee was first imported to Europe from Guatemala.
 * 1975 Brazil suffered because of failed harvests, world coffee prices soared.
 * 1989 International Coffee Agreement fails to stabilize prices. In the history of the coffee trade down to its lowest level.
 * 1990 Some coffee shops close due to the arrangement of space (redevelopment) in the UK. Introduced organic coffee that are excellent in the world coffee market.
 * 1998 Starbucks reach 2000 Outlets in the U.S. and 5,715 outlets worldwide. Starbucks positioned itself as a coffee shop with the largest network worldwide.

Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:24, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

East India companies
The England section mentions that "Largely through the efforts of the British East India Company and the Dutch East India Company, coffee became available in England no later than the 16th century according to Leonhard Rauwolf's 1583 account". The problem with this statement is that, according to the East India company pages, they weren't established until the 17th century. Any ideas? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:BRD
...and here we go again. Til Eulenspiegel reverted my edit to the intro. It doesn't seem necessary to refute the ethiopian origin right in the intro. There are plenty of origin stories, and not one should be particularly signaled out for inclusion in the lead. In fact, per WP:MOSINTRO, we should probably just mention what is known (the credible evidence) and leave the rest for the history section.

&Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 16:12, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As an aside, the Ethiopia thing occurs only once in the origin section. Having a substantial portion of the lead devoted to it is WP:UNDUE.
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 16:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I had to revert because while you did not mention it, you also deleted another reference that doesn't refute the Ethiopian origin, but without replacing this information elsewhere in the article History of Coffee. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:19, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair points. I will move the fact sheet-referenced info to the same section (origin).
 * Fair compromise?
 * Cheers,
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 16:28, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The other reference you deleted from the intro supports the Ethiopian origin of coffee (if not the Kaldi story) as do many other available references. However you stated above that your opinion is that the Ethiopian origin of coffee is "refuted". This could be a pov issue where you hold a pov different to that of many sources. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oops! I see how that could be confusing. I meant the origin of use, not the native population origin (in a biological sense). No worries. I will expand the origin section and incorporate the info in the second source, then remove per undue.
 * Here is what the second source says:
 * "The original native population of coffee

was in the highlands of Ethiopia with possible disjunct populations in nearby highland areas of Sudan and Kenya. All of those areas have been altered and under semicultivation for many years (Charrier and Berthaud 1985). Coffee was first cultivated by Arabs during the 14th century and introduced into the New World and much of the rest of the tropics during the 17th century (Smith 1985, Wrigley 1988)."
 * Trust me, I have no POV either way. I just found it odd to have this much emphasis on one story in the intro.


 * Cheers,


 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 16:35, 25 May 2013 (UTC)