Talk:History of roller derby

About this article
The History of roller derby article was created by kencf0618 on October 31, 2007 in order to reduce the size of the main roller derby article. The content of the main article's History section was moved here and replaced with a summary and pointer.

On May 26, 2008, mjb created this Discussion page and moved the old History section-related threads here from Talk:Roller derby). —mjb (talk) 16:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Texas leagues
It would be nice to have a bit of info on the original Texas leagues in the current revival so that the reader can understand how roller derby's current revival got started. When and where did they start, and why? Who was the first, and how did they end up splitting into multiple leagues? How long were they operating before leagues outside of Texas started popping up? etc. &mdash; mjb 20:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

This is chronicled in the docufilm "Hell on Wheels" which premiered at the Austin SXSW film festival. BGGW formed in 2001 and began putting on the first all-female roller derby events in history. BGGW predicates all other women's roller derby. Within a short period of time BGGW (bad girls, good women) split and became TXRD and TXRG due to philosophical differences on how the league was to be managed. TXRD then became a banked track league known as the Lonestar Rollergirls, and retained all the intellectual property of the formerly incorporated BGGW league. TXRG Texas Rollergirls continued as a flat track league, and is the origin of WFTDA to this date. Please contact me about this stuff so we can talk if necessary. Let me know and I'll send you my number. Freeskate 16:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Section headings
User:Keithcop (Keith Coppage, author of Roller Derby to RollerJam, I'm guessing), changed the section heading "Success and failure" to "Jam On, Jam Off". Per Manual of Style (headings), section headings should only use initial caps, so "Jam on, jam off" would be better. We also try to keep things "encyclopedic" ("dry", if you prefer), so I am hesitant to encourage dramatic or clever headings that would be like those seen in magazine articles. That said, perhaps "Success and failure" is not much better as a title for that section. Suggestions? —mjb 20:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think "Success and failure" sounds much more encyclopedia-like. --Marumari 13:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Recent deletions
Keithcop also made the following deletions:


 * At one point, Roller Derby could be seen on all three U.S. networks (CBS, ABC, and NBC), several times a week.

This was reduced to just ABC instead of all 3. My source for the claim of three networks was http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06081/674316.stm which says it explicitly. I also see that http://www.toad.net/~andrews/Toughie.htm says that in the 1960s, "Frank Deford, writing for Sports Illustrated, noted that at one point in the '50s all three networks were vying to televise Roller Derby live." I don't know if "vying to televise" means the same thing as "were televising" (I'd think it doesn't), but still, are you certain it was only ABC that was broadcasting games?


 * the L.A. Braves debuted before 60,000 fans at the Rose Bowl

The number of fans was removed. I got this number from an LA Times article reprinted at http://www.rollerderbypreservationassociation.com/modules.php?name=JLF_Newspaper_Articles&op=ShowNewspaperInfo&id=7&id_cat=3 … so, why was it removed?


 * Not to be outdone, Roller Derby also formed its own International Roller Derby League (IRDL) which included its most famous teams, the Bay Bombers, Midwest Pioneers, and Jolters, among others.

This was completely removed, resulting in an orphaned reference to the IRDL as the source of some of Roller Games skaters in its final years, and no explanation of the IRDL's existence whatsoever. What gives?


 * Cultural historian Paul Fussell attributed the collapse to the declining economic class of its fan base in its final years

I fully cited a source for this claim (the claim that Fussell provided that explanation), and Fussell is a notable, respected author in the subject of culture, class and economics. Its deletion also left a hanging reference in a preceding sentence. I've restored the text for now. I'd like to be able to provide more explanations for the 1973 shutdown of Roller Derby, though, so please, if you have other references we can cite, let's add them.


 * Seltzer sold Roller Derby promotional rights to Roller Games

My source for this claim was http://web.archive.org/web/20030728071050/www.rollersport.us/history4.cfm, which is still cited elsewhere in the article. I didn't really know how to interpret the claim, but I don't know why it was deleted, either. Please explain.


 * Roller Games disbanded Roller Derby's IRDL and its own NRL

This is based on the info at http://www.rollerderbypreservationassociation.com/modules.php?name=Leagues&op=ShowLeagueAll&id=179&id_cat=32&categories=ROLLERGAMES, which reprints a Roller Games publication explaining all the league changes that were being made in 1974. Perhaps its reference to the IRDL only meant to say that the IRDL ceased to exist when Roller Derby was shut down, but still, I don't see why the information was deleted, especially considering there'd be no explanation of what happened to them otherwise.


 * Initially the [IRSL] was the International Roller Derby League (IRDL) [but was bought and renamed by Dave Lipschultz to] the IRSL.

My source for this claim is http://web.archive.org/web/20031010191816/http://www.rollersport.us/history5.cfm … please explain the change.


 * In 1985, ESPN began televising IRSL bouts alongside professional wrestling in a programming block billed as "Slams & Jams"

My source for this claim was that Post-Gazette article, http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06081/674316.stm … why was it deleted?


 * In 1986, the ESPN contract was transferred to the IRSL spinoff RollerMania (named after WrestleMania)

My source for this claim is http://web.archive.org/web/20031010191816/http://www.rollersport.us/history5.cfm … is it wrong?

I went to a lot of trouble to find all those sources, so I need some explanations of the deletions, preferably with more authoritative sources cited, or I'll revert them. If there are contradictory accounts of the sport's history, then we need to document that fact, not just favor one over the other. —mjb 21:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Another set of unexplained edits was made today by the same user. Some of the new info is useful, but the Fussell quote was again deleted with no explanation, and a few changes conflict with cited sources. Keithcop, please explain your edits. —mjb 02:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What is the status of this deleted information? Freeskate 17:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's still gone, except for the Fussell quote, which I recently restored at the bottom of the "Jam On, Jam Off" section. My sources could contain errors; I have no way of knowing. Roller derby press isn't exactly scholarly. I'd like to find a way to incorporate all points of view and acknowledge that there's conflict, until more reliable secondary sources can be found. —mjb 19:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ack. It's unfortunate that the folks you'd expect to be authoritative would give an unbiased view of the sport's history instead only want to parlay over 'pro v.s. am' and give little mention of the (now dominant) all-female revival.Freeskate 20:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Roller Derby born out of track racing?
It is my understanding that Roller Derby came in to popularity as track bicycle racing was dying out. Is it possible that velodrome owners moved to promoting Roller Derby? Is this something that is worth mentioning?

Thanks, Therobotbuilder 01:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be worth mentioning if it were mentioned in a reasonably well-researched publication somewhere. mjb 05:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

A bit more beef to the Rollergames section?...
I know a skater who skated with Rollergames in the early 1980s. Videos of early-to-mid eighties Rollergames games on a conventional banked track are up on YouTube. That's perhaps not cite-worthy of course.

One bit of clarification: Bill Griffiths owns the trademarks to Rollergames as well as the L.A. T-Birds. It's my understanding that David Sams actually was the force behind the late eighties "update" to Rollergames. Griffiths was licensing his trademark. Since then I believe he's sued Lou Sanchez (and whatever his NRDL was called at the time) over putting on games with a team called the L.A. T-Birds, and he's currently suing Bob Sedillo's Pegasus Music Inc. over his promotion allegedly not living up to the terms of their licensing contract.

I could probably get you a cite on that last (as in, you can actually find information about this case from the court it's being tried in). Info on the prior suit is a bit sketchier. There's lots of references to it on old Yahoo group archives and long-dead derby message boards, but I'm hesitant to consider those reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimBRoy (talk • contribs) 13:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Since RollerGames has its own article, anything we put here needs to just be a summary of only the most essential highlights from that article. I agree there's a dearth of reliable info we can cite. We just have to do the best we can. Does your skater acquaintance have any press clippings we could glean material from? —mjb (talk) 21:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * What I posted above was a fair bit confusing. "Roller Games" was the Bill Griffiths owned show/league. The league was known as National Skating Derby (NSD) and Roller Games International (RGI). "Rollergames" was the 1989 David Sams TV show which used skaters and licensed trademarks (mainly the T-Birds) from Bill Griffiths. Also known as "Rock-N-Rollergames." Many now think of it as "the show with the alligator pit." — Preceding unsigned comment added by TimBRoy (talk • contribs) 10:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

World Roller Federation
From 1989-1990 there was a league called the World Roller Federation which had a syndicated show. I'm not sure what the title of the show was, but the one DVD I've bought does list some stations in its "Network." The information on this league on Tim Patten's Bay City Bombers site seems accurate and fair in its treatment of this show, in part due to his being a skater on it.

There were twelve episodes shot, I'm told by a skater on the show that the owner(s) ran out of money. From the four episodes I've seen, it had rules that were a bit more like Roller Games than classic Roller Derby (one jammer instead of two, no pivot, only jammers wore a helmet). Packs were tighter than in 1980s Roller Games (where sometimes skaters were strung out all over the track). The "20 foot rule" even got a mention at one point. Managers/coaches were there but tended to be on the sedate side while the skating was happening.

A sign of things to come in Rollerjam included no clear sign that one team was the good guys/white shirts and all the rest were the bad guys/red shirts. Announcers might mention different details about a team that might cause a fan to like or dislike them.

I found it an interesting approach to theatrical/worked derby, and one that tends to get overlooked when discussing such leagues/programs. TimBRoy (talk) 07:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Possible bad information in the IRSL section.
While I can't say that two episodes of "Cheap Seats" didn't feature IRSL derby (which was indeed aired on ESPN in the 1980s), at least one episode of "Cheap Seats" actually featured Roller Games/Rollergames (RGI?). This was an episode featuring the L.A. T-Birds and another team at the Showboat casino in Las Vegas, NV. A video segment of this episode can be seen on YouTube. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimBRoy (talk • contribs) 20:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Origin of 'bout'
In a comment on Jerry Seltzer's blog, April "La Muerta" Ritzenthaler (of BGGW & TXRD Lonestar Rollergirls) cops to coining "bout" as the term of choice for a match/game in modern-day derby. She says "I had been boxing the whole year before we started the league (BGGW), and was one of a couple of gals figuring out the rules. When we started to talk about the games, I called them bouts, as we did in boxing. It caught on (I’m actually surprised no one corrected it) and just seemed to fit our style, which certainly included plenty of fighting."

I'd like to include this in the article, but of course we can't use a blog comment as a source. So just keep your eyes peeled for this bit of info. Maybe it will get picked up in a respectable publication at some point. Do a web search now and then and see if it turns up. —mjb (talk) 07:59, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

In a response to something somewhere on Facebook (again, another unciteable source) where there was a mention of a derby collection that had been donated to the University of Texas Austin archives. I mentioned in passing that Buddy Atkinson Jr had donated all of the tapes from the sole season of World Roller Federation (WRF) derby TV shows. This was a 1989-1990 league that was largely made up of former IRSL skaters (some of them being IRDL vets) as well as a fair number of Roller Games skaters who had either opted out of or not been included in the Rollergames show David Sams was putting on at the time.

If you watch WRF derby, their lineup set-up looks a LOT like a modern derby lineup. They had no pivots, but they had four blockers per team and one jammer a piece. Roller Derby (NRDL, IRDL, IRSL) always had two jammers per team. The league's rules seemed a bit more like Roller Games than Roller Derby (four blockers, no pivot) but the "heat" was more like Derby than Games. Note, both Roller Derby and Roller Games all had more or less non-stop skating, with a different-looking form of start-up on the first jam of each half. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimBRoy (talk • contribs) 19:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Suggested guidelines for use of "game" and "bout."
At the moment, the article gets this "right" (read on) throughout. When referring to pre-2001 "classic roller derby," the term "game" is used. When referring to the "modern derby" revival, "bouts" tends to be used. It's helpful to keep it this way.

This is one of the most frequent sources of friction between adherents of classic derby and modern derby. When they read the word "bout" attached to their particular flavor of derby it tends to annoy them. Often this is enough to incite not just an edit correcting the term, but unhelpful edits about "slutty outfits" or "they can't skate" which can result in edit wars. It's best to apply the terms consistently with the prevalent usage of each era. TimBRoy (talk) 21:19, 12 September 2011 (UTC)


 * If you can find a reliable source detailing this, then please feel free to be bold and make the changes yourself. David  1217  What I've done 22:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

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