Talk:History of the Catholic Church in Germany

The O.S.S Outline: Some due caution
The source used to demonstrate that Hitler wanted to "destroy Christianity" in this Wikipedia entry was a report by the U.S. Office of Strategic Services made in 1945, which was created to aid prosecutors at the Nuremberg trials. It collected data from already published material on the Third Reich and did not gather original intelligence on its own (p. ii). Due caution should be used when citing non academic sources such as these because editors are not necessarily in a position to judge the historical reliability of its claims, and such government reports may contain underlying political motivations. An earlier report, for example, submitted by the same O.S.S., titled The Mind of Adolf Hitler (1943), made indictments which accused Adolf Hitler of being a coprophile (sexually gratified by being defecated or urinated on) being impotent, a homosexual, a masochist, and a pederast (i.e., a man who "enjoys" the company of young boys) [William Langer (1972) The Mind of Adolf Hitler. New York: Basic Books, pp. 124, 138, 178.] Secondary sources written by historians, which also reflect a reasonable level of scholarly consensus should be preferred. To its own credit however, the O.S.S. report cautioned, "The document is still seriously lacking in evidence of probative value, and is consequently ill suited to serve as the basis for an international discussion." Which would explain why nothing ever came of it, and why it was quietly tucked away only to be discovered in 1999 by a law student at Columbia University.

The New York Times piece, which is also cited here, is merely a summary the original report. Joe Sharkey states, "Verbatim excerpts from the outline would require extensive explanations. Instead, the outline is summarized below." Nowhere does Sharkey consult a historian, nor does he explicitly claim the report is historically accurate. Sharkey does an adequate job of summarizing it, apart from the fact he misquotes Baldur von Schirach, the leader of the Hitler Youth, saying, "the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement" which was not actually von Schirach, but the opinion of the O.S.S. outline regarding particular members of the Nazi Party (Sharkey had missed the end-quote on p. 6). Sharkey's regular columns, as it were, focus mostly on business travel.

The Wikipedia entry makes the assertion that the O.S.S. report revealed a plan "destroy Christianity within the Reich." This is not true. The report stated that a "sector of the National Socialist party," wanted Christianity extirpated, but this attitude was largely confined to Alfred Rosenberg and his allies (p. 6). What the report actually argued was that the Nazis had a plan the undermine the Church's political influence, due to the growing resistance among the clergy as the Nazis gradually reneged on their many promises (pp. 17-19). The O.S.S. report reveals that the Nazis preoccupation with the "Church Question" was centered around their desire to retain complete control over the German population, and had little to nothing to do with religious or sectarian matters. The putative evidence of this plan, the report stated in the section titled "The Problem of Proof," was circumstantial and could only be inferred from "the systematic nature of the persecution itself." (p. 9.) "Direct evidence" however might be obtained by examining the "directives of the Reich Propaganda Ministry." If this evidence did not exist or was destroyed, the "questioning of Nazi newspapermen and local and regional propagandists might elicit the desired evidence" the report stated (p. 9).

Bear in mind the report also includes charges that the Nazis persecuted secular movements, and that the Nazis "abolished the right to pursue anti-religious and anti-church propaganda. The Prussian government closed the so-called secular (weltliche) schools in which no religious instruction was given and re-established religious instruction in professional and vocation schools. All organizations of free-thinkers were forbidden." (p. 12) In any case, the entire paragraph relating to the O.S.S. outline poorly mischaracterizes the source material, dramatically plays up the certainty regarding its claims, and draws extraneous conclusions which are not made by the original report. Best, Miguel Chavez (talk) 20:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That is useful information. Mischaracterising source material, playing up the certainty of claims, and drawing extraneous conclusions - that is the 'modus operandi'  that is  annoying - the section, from its distended opening  on, looks very simplistic to me , designed to flatten the existence of difficulties and problems into  a straightforward, simple story .  There is a new book about the early days -  (from the jacket of Derek Hastings  book 'Catholicism and the roots of Nazism' -), :" the early Nazi movement was born in Munich, a city whose population was overwhelmingly Catholic - "Catholics played a central role in the movement before the 1923 Beerhall Putsch - many of the Nazi movement's leading publicists came from the ranks of local Catholic elites '  'many Germans evidently believed they could be 'good Catholics' and 'good Nazis' simultaneously. from the jacket agian " by uncovering Munich's unique Catholic intellectual anti-Semitic milieu of the 1920s, [hastings] convincingly shows how individual Catholic priests and laity alike could embrace a youthful Hitler and the emerging Nazi party." "Hastings compellingly argues that Nazism began as neither a paganist nor an atheistic movement, but rather as a radicalized, but nonetheless recognisably Catholic politics" -   Sayerslle (talk) 22:33, 8 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The above critiques (original research, I believe) notwithstanding, there is ample evidence to support that the Nazis intented to eventually eradiate Christianity. I am including a number of quotes from reliable sources below to that effect. I will add them as support to the assertion in the article. Certainly reliably sourced contrary views may be included, but I think this is sufficient to support this assertion notwithstanding editor's criticism relating to the O.S.S. report (I think criticism from a reliable source would be more compelling). Conway does say that among the questions which does remain is whether and to what degree Nazis had conceived this plan prior to coming to power.
 * “There is no doubt that in the long run Nazi leaders such as Hitler and Himmler intended to eradicate Christianity just as ruthlessly as any other rival ideology, even if in the short term they had to be content to make compromises with it.”


 * "Had the Nazis won the war their ecclesiastical policies would have gone beyond those of the German Christians, to the utter destruction of both the Protestant and the Catholic Church."


 * “Consequently, it was Hitler’s long rang goal to eliminate the churches once he had consolidated control over his European empire.”


 * “And even fewer paused to reflect that under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler, the Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists.”


 * “The objective was to either destroy Christianity and restore the German gods of antiquity or to turn Jesus into an Aryan.”


 * “It seems no exaggeration to insist that the greatest challenge the Nazis had to face was their effort to eradicate Christianity in Germany or at least to subjugate it to their general world outlook.”


 * The Nazis sought to "to eradicate Christianity in Germany root and branch."
 * References
 * The section could be called, catholicism, the rise of nazism and the Third Reich , then it could look at the milieu in which nazism took hold - seeing Nazism as a form of essentially anti-Xtian political religion, "it is inaccurate to see that quality in static or unchanging terms, projecting it back on to the earliest years of the nazi movement " , (Kevin Spicer) "Munichs unique catholic intellectual anti-semitic milieu of the 1920s"and josef muller, and Dietrich Eckart, and and Lorenz pieper and Albanus Schachleiter a brown priest,- - Heinrich Himmler himself was raised a deeply pious Catholic "remaining so at the time  he joined the early Nazi movement in the summer of 1923 " his father Gebhard, 'a deeply religious catholic' who used his conections to arrange the 1908 appointment of his nephew ' the priest and future nazi  Wilhelm August Patin  to the position of hofstiftsvikar at St kajetan -(is that in Munich - did he know faulhaber? -  need english articles on these characters) -Theatine Church, Munich -it is in Munich - have you heard of  Patin, mamalujo? did he know faulhaber?Sayerslle (talk) 11:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there any evidence cited by these sources which support their assertions? This is important. It just seems curious to me that such a grand plot to destroy one of the longest lasting and most influential faiths in all of human culture is conspicuously absent from virtually every scholarly work concerning Nazism and World War II. You would think it might merit a line or two. In any case, you did provide a handful of references to support this hypothesis, however I worry that you are giving these speculations, as it were, undue weight in light of all other evidence. I would hate to accuse you of selectively choosing your sources, but I could without any trouble find more sources that claim the Holocaust never occurred than citations that claim the Nazi's had "a plan to destroy Christianity." You could find reputable sources by reputable scholars to claim all sorts of ridiculous assertions. Pseudo-scientists and Pseudo-historians make a living out of this. But this is not the most honest way to present nor understand history. Just looking at your citations, notice how unauthoritative they seem. Dill for example is openly speculating, or "insisting" rather, that it was a coin toss between destroying Christianity or domesticating it. Fischel, a coin toss between destroying Christianity or simply making Jesus Aryan. Wheaton is quoting from Rauschning's Hitler Speaks, by all accounts a dubious or fraudulent work. And your other sources seem to be asserting that Hitler intended, not to destroy Christianity per se, but to eliminate the Churches—which just seems odd given that he was financially supporting them, signing deals with them, and given that most Churches and pastors in Germany supported the Nazi regime, especially among the conservative Protestant and Evangelical faiths. Best, Miguel Chavez (talk) 18:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there any evidence cited by these sources which support their assertions? This is important. It just seems curious to me that such a grand plot to destroy one of the longest lasting and most influential faiths in all of human culture is conspicuously absent from virtually every scholarly work concerning Nazism and World War II. You would think it might merit a line or two. In any case, you did provide a handful of references to support this hypothesis, however I worry that you are giving these speculations, as it were, undue weight in light of all other evidence. I would hate to accuse you of selectively choosing your sources, but I could without any trouble find more sources that claim the Holocaust never occurred than citations that claim the Nazi's had "a plan to destroy Christianity." You could find reputable sources by reputable scholars to claim all sorts of ridiculous assertions. Pseudo-scientists and Pseudo-historians make a living out of this. But this is not the most honest way to present nor understand history. Just looking at your citations, notice how unauthoritative they seem. Dill for example is openly speculating, or "insisting" rather, that it was a coin toss between destroying Christianity or domesticating it. Fischel, a coin toss between destroying Christianity or simply making Jesus Aryan. Wheaton is quoting from Rauschning's Hitler Speaks, by all accounts a dubious or fraudulent work. And your other sources seem to be asserting that Hitler intended, not to destroy Christianity per se, but to eliminate the Churches—which just seems odd given that he was financially supporting them, signing deals with them, and given that most Churches and pastors in Germany supported the Nazi regime, especially among the conservative Protestant and Evangelical faiths. Best, Miguel Chavez (talk) 18:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

"Heated debates in the media" ?
Pray tell what 'media', apart from newspapers, existed in the 1870s?

'Media', with respect to communications, is a 20th Century coinage; the correct term is 'news media'. By the late 1950s, there were newspapers, magazines, newsletters, journals and such, as print medIA, plus telegraphy, stock tickers, radio, and television mediUMS for the dispersal of information: plural 'medIA'. We now add the Internet, another information mediUM to our news medIA.

Perhaps the writer means 'Heated debates in the press'? 121.44.140.112 (talk) 02:53, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

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