Talk:History of the Civil Air Patrol

First 3 Airfields
I was Googling-129.15.64.253 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC) for Civil Air Patrol on Wikipedia, and stumbled across Latana Field. The article claims that the field was one of the three experimental bases to be set up. The other two fields are even more interesting.-129.15.64.253 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC) Mjf3719 (talk) 14:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

-129.15.64.253 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)See Introduction to Civil Air Patrol. CAPP 50-5 page 8 at http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503081737.pdf  The first two bases were located in Atlantic City, New Jersey and Rehoboth, Delaware. Later, a third base was built in Lantana, Florida.-129.15.64.253 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)bdodo1992 (talk) 23:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Claims of U-boat sinking by Haggins and Farr
The records of the U.S. Navy do not support the idea that a Civil Air Patrol airplane piloted by Haggins and Farr sunk a German U-boat.-129.15.64.253 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC) Stonnman (talk) 23:51, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * -129.15.64.253 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC). The two confirmed Civil Air Patrol U-boat kills reported in CAP Pamphlet 50-5 appear to be part of a summary of optimistic wartime reports.  When reported numbers of planes shot down were compared to enemy records after the war, there simply were not enough enemy aircraft manufactured to support the cumulative number reportedly destroyed.  Individual claims may still be accepted if surviving records of circumstances surrounding aircraft loss are inadequate to resolve the discrepancy.  The 636 U-boats lost at sea, however, are documented by comprehensive German records.  Shortly after the war joint committees of the various armed forces compared German records of missing U-boats to Allied reports of attacks on U-boats and attributed each loss to a specific attack report.  Later historians changed some of these initial military findings by correlating some of the presumably sunken U-boats with unsuccessful attacks recorded in surviving U-boat log books.  This continuing process has changed the presumed fate of 148 (23%) of U-boats lost at sea; but there are no U-boats for which CAP claims seem more credible than other causes of loss.  Most contemporary wartime histories include dates and locations for claimed victories missing from CAP Pamphlet 50-5.  Even without this information, the period of CAP operation (5 March 1942 to 31 August 1943) and location of patrols (within 150 miles of the United States Atlantic coast) leaves only 13 possibilities:

Thewellman (talk) 21:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * 14 April 1942: GS U-85 (1941) positively identified by remains at 35.91667°N, -75.21667°W where sunk by USS Roper (DD-147)
 * 9 May 1942: GS U-352 positively identified by survivors at 34.35°N, -76.58333°W where sunk by USCGC Icarus (WPC-110)
 * 13 June 1942: GS U-157 (1941) believed sunk by USCGC Thetis at 24.21667°N, -82.05°W
 * 30 June 1942: GS U-158 (1941) believed sunk by a USN VP-74 Martin PBM Mariner at 32.83333°N, -67.46667°W
 * 3 July 1942: GS U-215 wreck located at 41.47997°N, -66.37997°W where attacked by naval trawler HMS Le Tigre
 * 7 July 1942: GS U-701 positively identified by survivors at 34.83333°N, -74.91667°W where sunk by a USAAF 396 Sqn Lockheed Hudson
 * 15 July 1942: GS U-576 believed sunk by USN VC-9 Vought OS2U Kingfishers and motor vessel Unicoi at 34.85°N, -74.36667°W
 * 30 July 1942: GS U-166 (1941) wreck located at 28.61667°N, -90.75°W where attacked by USN submarine chaser PC-566
 * 31 July 1942: GS U-754 believed sunk by a RCAF 113 Squadron Lockheed Hudson at 43.03333°N, -64.86667°W
 * 20 November 1942: GS U-184 missing after battle with convoy ON-144 northeast of Newfoundland but possibly having enough fuel to patrol US coastal area with a damaged radio.
 * 15 May 1943: GS U-176 believed sunk by Cuban submarine chaser CS-13 at 23.35°N, -80.3°W
 * 2 June 1943: GS U-521 positively identified by a survivor at 37.71667°N, -73.26667°W where sunk by USN submarine chaser PC-565
 * 7 August 1943: GS U-84 (1941) believed sunk by a USN VB-105 Consolidated B-24 Liberator at 27.55°N, -68.03°W


 * I've always felt the likelihood of these CAP kills being real were low, however, there are plenty of sources which attest to them, both from CAP and otherwise. Simply disclaiming them would amount to original research, so the best we could really do is something akin to "...but United States Navy records do not support these claims." Of course, it would useful to reference a source that documents all the known kills. — Huntster (t @ c) 22:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * An up-to-date listing is maintained at: http://www.uboat.net/boats/listing.html but several books with U-boat rosters include one of the postwar assessments. The earliest I have found is Kafka, Roger & Pepperburg, Roy L. Warships of the World Cornell Maritime Press (1946) pp.1080-1093.  Substantially identical assessments are reproduced in Taylor, J.C. German Warships of World War II Doubleday (1966) pp.111-157 and Lenton, H.T. German Warships of the Second World War Arco Publishing (1976) pp.144-278.  Clay Blair also has data updated to the 1990s scattered through his Hitler's U-Boat War published in two volumes by Random House in 1996 and 1998.  Blair describes a 7 March 1942 attack on GS U-578 by an aircraft dropping small bombs.  Have you found any sources specifying when and where the alleged U-boats sank rather than sometime between 5 March 1942 and 31 August 1943 with the implied assumption it might still be classified information?  I was relieved to note USS Dorado (SS-248) disappeared after that time, but wonder if any attacks might correlate with fishing boat disappearances.Thewellman (talk) 05:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I don't recall coming across anything more specific, which is another reason for my significant skepticism-129.15.64.253 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC). I also have trouble believing any such kills would still be classified, given the tremendous publicity that has surrounded the reported kills since WWII. I have only one CAP "history book", Hero Next Door (I'd like to get a copy of Neprud's Flying Minutemen, but the prices are ridiculous), and while it goes into considerable detail about the Haggin and Farr "kill", it doesn't give even approximate dates, only the impression that it occurred near the beginning of the armed coastal patrol period. Furthering this problem, I don't know how long after coastal patrol was authorised (5 March) that authorisation was given to fit the aircraft with ordnance. 7 March seems far too soon after the original authorisation for the CAP brass to have pushed through the idea of arming the civilian craft, so the U-578 incident might have to be ruled out. Certainly there's almost no way to prove a correlation in any circumstance. I do wonder if the CAP History Museum might have more information, or at least exact dates of the kills. — Huntster (t @ c) 06:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I found the 1988 reprint of Robert Neprud's Flying Minute Men as a pdf file at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29316390/WWII-1941-48-Civil-Air-Patrol-History Neprud modifies the claim of 2 U-boats sunk to credit for 2 U-boats damaged or sunk.  He indicates authority to carry bombs was granted after the 6 April 1942 incident of the grounded U-boat off the Banana River.  Haggin and Farr are reported as flying from Atlantic City in July 1942 when they dropped two depth charges on a U-boat 24 miles off Absecon NJ.  Page 34 lists the 21 coastal patrol force bases with dates of activation and first patrols.Thewellman (talk) 09:13, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Great find, thanks for that. Ugh, seems both books completely screw up the dates of incidents...Hero and Flying say May 1942 for the Banana River incident; at least Flying says July 1942 for the first depth charge hits, Hero says nothing. The lack of detail is frustrating. At least I think the U-578 incident can be fully ruled out as being related to CAP. Of course, that kind of leaves us back at square one. — Huntster (t @ c) 11:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Upon review, it appears I misinterpreted the Flying Minute Men description of the Banana River incident; and the date is 6 May, as listed in the other references. Information from German sources suggests the U-boat observed was probably U-333, which had torpedoed Amazone, Java Arrow and Halsey after being rammed by British Prestige.  U-333 was later depth charged by several Coast Guard cutters and a destroyer, so it may have been attempting to repair damage rather than stuck on a sand bar.


 * Other sources suggest several possibilities for a July attack by Haggin and Farr. A Coast Guard plane straddled a U-boat with 2 depth charges on 12 July 1942, a B-17 straddled a U-boat with six depth charges on 13 July, and two Navy planes dropped four depth charges on a U-boat on 14 July.  Like Haggin and Farr, all four aircraft believed their attacks caused heavy damage and probable or certain kills on U-boats in the vicinity of Cape Hatteras.  On 14 July, both U-402 and U-576 reported they were repairing damage from aircraft bombs and were returning to France unable to continue patrol.  A CAP attack on 12 to 14 July might have damaged U-402 or U-576, although the U-boats were probably too far south of Atlantic City at the time.  Three ships were torpedoed on 15 July shortly after convoy KS 520 left Chesapeake Bay; and another ship in the convoy fired on a submarine which submerged after two Navy planes dropped depth charges.  The submarine is believed to be U-576 because it was never heard from again and no other U-boat reported attacking that convoy.  A CAP attack off New Jersey on or after 15 July could have sunk U-576 if she survived the battle with convoy KS 520.  U-89, U-458 and U-754 were also in the vicinity, and moved north along the coast where U-754 was sunk by a RCAF plane on 31 July.  A late July CAP attack might have been against one of these three U-boats; but the log of U-754, which might have recorded the attack, was lost when it sank.Thewellman (talk) 02:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)