Talk:History of the Jews in Bulgaria

Sources?
There are literally no sources for this article until WW2. Sources should be provided or the offending sections should be removed. -- ccxvi 03:15, 14 April 2014 (UTC)''

"A church council of 1352 led to the excommunication of heretics and Jews, and three Jews who had been sentenced to death were killed by a mob despite the sentence's having been repealed by the tsar." - the writer of the article you've been asked 3 years ago to provide sources. You've been warned yesterday and the warning was deleted without removing the offending section. We are not going to tolerate you anti-Bulgarian campaign in the Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.247.224.188 (talk) 09:13, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

" A church council of 1352 led to the excommunication of heretics and Jews, and three Jews who had been sentenced to death were killed by a mob despite the sentence's having been repealed by the tsar.[citation needed]" - In 3 years since 14 April 2014 the writer of this article is spreading lies against Bulgaria. How many more years you will need to find the "CITATION"? Another 100 years ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.247.224.188 (talk) 16:19, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

7. Congress, World Jewish. "World Jewish Congress". www.worldjewishcongress.org. Retrieved 2017-01-04. - Where is the CITATION for that? What document from that 14 century it is coming from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.247.224.188 (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * We are not engaged in archival research here; these events are described in several reliable WP:SECONDARY sources. Guccisamsclub (talk) 17:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

After more than two months and 6 SIX emails to your Secondаry source, they didn't provide any information AS FROM WHERE THEY HAVE THAT STATEMENT IN QUESTION. What are the Wikipedia procedures in this case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.247.224.188 (talk) 14:35, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Can you please be more accurate, it is not several it is only one and it is secondary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.247.224.188 (talk) 09:05, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Bulgarian Jewry
This article deals with Bulgarian Jewry as a historical and demographic group, therefore I suggest a rename from the present Bulgarian Jews. Comments? -- Deborahjay 19:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Update: Rename performed (per move); internal links (of redirect) repaired. -- Deborahjay 20:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Bulgarian Jewry in WWII
The article on Bulgarian Jewry in the Hebrew-language Wikipedia has an extensive section (nearly 1,000 words; will be longer in English) on the rescue of the community in WWII. I'm in the process of translating it into English. --Deborahjay 19:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Great! The article needs some considerable general expansion (not only in terms of more detailed history of the community) and I'd be happy to help with what I can (mostly minor things like transliteration of Bulgarian names, etc.) Todor→Bozhinov 21:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

World war II
The article presents forgets a couple of things about the Jews in Bulgaria:


 * 1) ghettos, anti-semitic legislation, forced labour camps, expulsion of Jews who were also citizens of other countries, resettling of Jews from the cities, etc.
 * 2) thousands of Jews from the territories occupied by Bulgaria (Macedonia and Thrace) were sent to the Nazi concentration camps in Poland (www.deathcamps.org/Reinhard/macedonia%20thrace%20transports.html)

bogdan 20:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you mean the article omits something? Perhaps you should provide some more sources, this one seams to be overzealous ("Always maintaining its sovereignty and forever opportunistic, Bulgaria had entered the conflict solely for reasons of territorial aggrandisement": woah, this is such a ridiculously naïve statement). Also, it really is debatable if the Jews in the areas that Bulgaria administered during WWII can be considered part of the "history of the Jews in Bulgaria". Plus, it should be noted we're talking not that Macedonia and that Thrace.
 * And don't forget our government often received direct orders from Nazi Germany and was in most cases not directly responsible for any decisions of that type. In that situation, what we managed to do was a real deed of heroism and valour. Todor→Bozhinov 20:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to read more about ordinary citizens who intervened -- for example, I think I read that farmers blocked transport trains.Jrm2007 18:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I tried to expand somewhat the section as requested by the User:Bogdan, the Israeli IP user and others before. @Bogdangiusca: Unfortunately the link you gave cannot be used as source, but I tried to cover the events you mentioning using other refs that can be accepted. To the Israeli IP user: Your edit was very informative but lacked proper references and thus cannot be included except a part of your last paragraph who has. Please give sources for the rest. If you need help in properly add them late me know. @User:Jrm2007: Also give something more. @User:TodorBozhinov: I disagree, I believe the Aegean Macedonia and Western Thrace was also part of the Bulgaria years before the events since they were officially annexed, but for any case I added a well established source for it.
 * I will try to expand the chapter a little more, any help or comments will be appreciated. Thanks in advance, --Factuarius (talk) 05:50, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

@Kostja:Please discuss before revert. The texts you just rv are almost word-by-word from the sources. About the name of the party: But it was in fact the Communist Party, as the very link indicates. Why to mislead the reader? About the number of the remained Jews is not mine, it was there before my edits, possibly by a Bulgarian editor. If you have a more reliable number please put it. No problem --Factuarius (talk) 13:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You assert that Vicky Tamir stated in her book "Bulgaria and Her Jews: The History of a Dubious Symbiosis" on page 314 that "almost the entire Jewish population was forced to leave Bulgaria". There is no such statement on page 314 or anywhere in the book: . The Jewish virtual library, a far more authoritative source, asserts that Jews were not permitted to leave Bulgaria initially but were latter permitted to go, which the vast majority wanted to do:.
 * You also assert that on page 246 of "The Bulgarian Jews and the Final Solution" by Chary Frederick, it's stated that "the survival of Bulgarian Jews was due to complex political and social internal struggles, and not because of Bulgarian humanity". This also can't be found on this page or anywhere else in the book.
 * The Communist party was called Worker's party at the time. Kostja (talk) 15:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I kindly asked you to discuss before revert both here and in your talk page. Not revert *while* discussing. I also told you that if you had difficulties to access the sources I was ready to help you. Unfortunately you continued. Please give a chance to the dialogue. I suppose we are both young, no reason for hurry. Now, about the search you did in Google Books: The books have no preview at all there so it is impossible to find what you want that way. Instead, you can try this book to approach their contents: The Jewish Holocaust: An Annotated Guide to Books in English, Studies in Judaica and the Holocaust, written by Buckley Barry Barrett (a Librarian at the California State University of San Bernardino) It has Google preview and you can see both references you deleted there in the 95 & 96 pages. Please avoid reverts in advance before giving me a chance to explain my edits. Thanks, and I will do the same.
 * Now about the name of the communist party, indeed had another name then (and for one or two years latter), but you possibly know the reason: It was impossible for a country ally of the Nazi Germany to permit a communist party and that was the case with Bulgaria then. So I find no reason to mislead the readers about the true nature of that party. Since it was the communist party masked with another name, we must call it with its real name. We know that in reality was the communist party of Bulgaria why to continue masking it at 2010? It unmasked itself in 1944 when the Soviets reached Bulgaria. Cannot understand why you insist so much on that. At all. But anyway, if you like we can leave in the fake name and add the real on a parenthesis next to it. Is that OK with you? --Factuarius (talk) 20:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Copyvio
Factuarius, you have infringed the copyright of the Virtual Jewish Library by almost directly copying its article on Bulgaria. While much of the text you have inserted is notable and has its place in the Wikipedia article (nobody is denying the existence of a Law for protection of the nation), but we can't afford to include copyrighted text. If you'd like to improve this article, please do so using your own words.

My general opinion, though, is that if Kostja or you would like to write an article about the Holocaust in Bulgaria or Bulgarian Jews during World War II or the Rescue of the Bulgarian Jews + background, all of this text and all of those opinions ought to go there. The Bulgarian Jews article is intended to be a summary, and at the moment, the "Bulgarian Jews during World War II" section is too large.

Also, what the hell was with the "smallest Jewish population in Europe"? That's some of the most ridiculous stuff I've ever read. What was the point of it anyway? You clearly have an anti-Bulgarian agenda, so please adhere to WP:NPOV or leave the project. Todor→Bozhinov 07:35, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Version without copyview problems
I was thinking to write to the Virtual Jewish Library for giving a permission in using that material, which I am sure they will grant it since I have found entire article in WP copied from that Library. But before that I decided to re-write three sentences as to cut time. This is a text version which I believe has no copyvio problems:

In August of 1940, the Bulgarian parliament enactedthe  Law for the Protection of the Nation, patterned after the 1935 Nuremberg Laws, which introduced numerous legal restrictions on Jews in Bulgaria. According to this law, Jews were prohibited from using the main thoroughfares, were not allowed to move from one town to another or to engage in commerce, had to wear the yellow badge, and were issued special yellow identity cards. Any jewelry and gold currency in the possession of Jews was confiscated and handed over to the Bulgarian national bank. The law also prohibited Jews from voting, running for office, working in government positions, serving in the army, marrying or rehabilitating with ethnic Bulgarians, using Bulgarian names, or owning rural land. Unlike the Italy, the other Nazi Germany allies, the Bulgarian WW 2 regime treated the Jews with exceptional cruelty and strictly applied these racial restrictions. Jewish houses were identified as such by a special sign. Every town with a Jewish population had its commissioner for Jewish affairs, whose task it was to ensure that these laws were enforced. The legislation also established quotas that limited the number of Jews in Bulgarian universities. Tamir Vicki, in "Bulgaria and Her Jews:The History of a Dubious Symbiosis" (Yeshiva University Press,N.York 1979), analyses the complexities of Bulgarian anti-semitism, and why this actually resulted in the survival of almost the entire pre-WW2 Jewish community of Bulgaria (48,000), but also why it accounted for the mass exodus to Palestine of almost every Bulgarian Jew following the war. Dimitar Peshev played a crucial role in preventing the deportations, as well as Bulgarian Church officials. According to Professor Chary Frederick (The Bulgarian Jews and the Final Solution, University of Pittsburgh Press. 1972, p.246) "the survival of Bulgarian Jews was due to complex political and social internal struggles, and not because of Bulgarian humanity". Though they were not deported to concentration camps or killed, able-bodied Bulgarian Jewish men were forced to participate in hard labour battalions under poor conditions during the entire war On the other hand, Bulgarian authorities deported to concentration camps the vast majority of the Jews in the areas of Macedonia and Thrace. The Bulgarian regime did not regard those Jews as Bulgarians, even though these areas had been officially annexed three years before (1941) to the Bulgarian State. Nor did the Bulgarian regime protect the Jews who had fled to Bulgaria from Nazi occupation elsewhere. Nearly all of the Jews of Bulgarian-occupied Macedonia and Thrace, approximately 14,000 people, were arrested by Bulgarian authorities and deported. They were transferred to German control and then shipped to Treblinka for extermination between March 1943 and September 1944 after an agreement signed between the two allies, Bulgaria and Nazi Germany. None of the deportees survived. After the war and the establishment of a Communist government, virtually the entire Jewish population forced to leave Bulgaria for Israel, making Bulgaria the country with one of the smallest Jewish population in Europe (1,363 according to the 2001 census). According to Israeli government statistics, 43,961 people from Bulgaria have emigrated to Israel between 1948 and 2006, which is the fourth largest number of all European countries, behind the Soviet Union, Romania and Poland.


 * After my first reading, I'm not convinced in the neutrality of this text. I'm puzzled as to what "one of the smallest Jewish population(s) in Europe" is still doing here, albeit with a fact. I'm not questioning the quality of your sources (have not reviewed that yet, and I'm even assuming good faith on the source of the prose), but the citations seem to imply a certain point of view, which is surely not the prevalent one. The section entirely minimizes the rescue of the Bulgarian Jews and emphasizes the Law for the Protection of the Nation without explaining the reasons behind its passing (Nazi pressure).
 * Most importantly, the section is way too long compared to the article's current length. It ought to be no more than three paragraphs the size of the second one above ("In August of 1940...") in my opinion. Also, for that length we can't afford to include any quotes or lengthy treatment of alternative opinions. If you'd like to write about the matter, try writing a separate article, I've suggested names above, but please don't rely only on sources that minimize the rescue of the Bulgarian Jews and emphasize everything else.
 * Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "remove all of the negative stuff and leave only the praise". The point is, there has to be balance and neutrality and the current tone, quotations and referencing are far from achieving that. Best, Todor→Bozhinov 20:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * But the Second World War chapter has indeed 3 paragraphs. To be honest I am "getting you wrong" because you reverted everything I wrote down to the last ref and comma. Included all five photos I put except the one for the Bulgarian people. And that without bothering to give a single word of explanation: In a chapter about the Bulgarian participation in the Holocaust to have only a photo for the Bulgarian people is somewhat strange to me. But apparently not to you. Anyway I am going to put back the chapter eliminating the sentence puzzling you. But I will open a discussion about that here. I believe it's easy to find out if Bulgaria post-war became the European country with the smaller Jew population or not. I will also add your point about "the nazi pressure" but you will have to produce a ref about it in the near future. As for the rest add whatever referenced you think necessary as to "emphasize the rescue" of the part of the Jews that evade deportation etc. The article isn't mine, I only tried to expand it.--Factuarius (talk) 02:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe you have addressed my comments. The section should become shorter, not longer, than the current one, and POV material should be removed. To make it easier for you, here are the steps you should take: As for the "smallest number of Jews in Europe", the repeated inclusion of this puzzling sentence makes me think that you have no in-depth knowledge of the matter at all. See, for example, History of the Jews in Albania. "Albania had about 200 Jews at the beginning of the war", and there are probably ten today. History of the Jews in the Republic of Macedonia says they are 183 today and no more than 12,000 before WWII. Is it that hard to take a brief look at Jews and Judaism in Europe? To be honest, I'm quite happy with the current version of the section. It can be improved, but only in terms of staying more on topic rather than citing book titles and the biographies of Michael Bar-Zohar and Tzvetan Todorov. Todor→Bozhinov 07:53, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Reduce content to less than the current section, which is already too long.
 * 2) Remove material that is conflicting with other sources (cruelty, forced to move to Israel post-war, Bulgarians = antisemites, etc., etc.). Anything that seems like a non-consensus view.
 * 3) Remove conflicting material. E.g., first you're claiming that it was "Bulgarian anti-semitism" that "accounted for the mass exodus to Palestine of almost every Bulgarian Jew following the war", that is, you're saying they moved out because of the attitude. Then you're claiming that "virtually the entire Jewish population (was) forced to leave Bulgaria for Israel." Both seem like fringe opinions to me, but at the moment they're even fringe views that are conflicting.
 * 4) Check your text for spelling and grammar mistakes, at the moment they abound.


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mdann52 (talk) 19:35, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Legacy of Suleiman Pasha (Ottoman general) and of Rabbi Gabriel Almosnino
I boldly removed reference to Suleiman Pasha in this article because:
 * 1) His own Wikipedia page makes no mention of him being Jewish, or of any of the other information claimed in this article.
 * 2) the only source in this article for any of its claims about this man, is a blog post by an individual who does not seem to have any notability or academic credentials, and which reads like a hate-motivated rant (translated from the Bulgarian using Google translate).

Should there be legitimate sources for the material deleted, I have no objection to the material being restored. Here is the deleted text:
 * Jews played prominent roles on both sides of Bulgaria's struggle for liberation from Ottoman rule during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877–78. On the pro-Ottoman side, the racially Jewish British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli sent military aid to the Ottoman army, which was itself led by the Jewish general Suleiman Pasha. Suleiman gained notoriety for the war crimes committed under his orders, such as at Stara Zagora, where 14,000 civilians were massacred by methods such as baking and ritualistic sacrifice.[5] On the other hand, it was the rabbi of Sofia, Gabriel Almosnino, who thwarted Suleiman's plans to destroy Sofia. Thus, Bulgarian history records Gabriel as a hero, and Suleiman as perpetrator of its worst known massacre.

I also removed reference to Rabbi Gabriel Almosnino in the same paragraph, for lack of any citations. There is mention of this man in the Wikipedia article on Sofia, but not anything that supports the claims in this article. Here is the deleted citation:

—Boruch Baum (talk) 16:11, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Someone in August suggested merging section "Notable Bulgarian Jews" with List of Bulgarian Jews
Someone made the suggestion in August, and there has been no discussion so far about it. I would point out that on the page List of South-East European Jews, it is only the Bulgarian section that has this suggestion. OTOH, the Bulgarian section there, is by far the largest. I randomly checked, and there do exist dedicated pages List of German Jews and List of French Jews, so for consistency it would seem correct not to merge the pages, and because no-one has commented since August, not even the person who made the suggestion originally, I'm removing the suggestion box template. —Boruch Baum (talk) 17:40, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Ferdinand
Is this quote in which Ferdinand identifies as half Jewish verifiable? The house of Saxe-Coburg Gotha indeed had Jewish blood in their veins. For example Ferdinand's grandmother (Maria Antonia Koháry de Csábrág) is a Hungarian Hebrew, and therefore several kings including Ferdinand of Bulgaria are of Jew ish descent whose feautures are remarkably Jewish.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.62.201.251 (talk) 02:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Famous people
Would you add Mark Zuckerberg , Pancho Vladigerov and Dora Gabe next to the other portrets?45.33.138.190 (talk) 06:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

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4,500 Jews from Greek Thrace and Eastern Macedonia were deported to Poland
There was no Poland at that time. Either occupied Poland or German death camps and ghettos.Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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