Talk:History of the Jews in Hungary

Needs updating into 20th and 21st centuries
I am wikifying this article, but it stops at the end of the 19th century, because the source (the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia) stops there. If anyone can provide information from the 1880s to today it would be appreciated. I am particularly concerned that a few paragraphs on the Holocaust in Hungary be put in the article. FeanorStar7

I have inserted a brief account of the Holocaust in Hungary. I do think that this subject merits an article of its own, by virtue of its magnitude as well as its unique aspects. When I have more time, I may prepare a more detailed and comprehensive one. 66.108.145.155 07:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

Samuel Aba
I've heard somewhere that Samuel Aba, the 3rd king of Hungary might have been of Jewish origin. Maybe it can be added as an interesting tidbit. Alensha 22:41, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting, I hadn't heard this do you have a source? --Goodoldpolonius2 01:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Mostly Hungarian sources. Kristó Gyula & Makk Ferenc: Az Árpád-ház uralkodói ("Rulers from the House of Árpád", p.61.) mentions that the name Samuel was very rare in Hungary, and can mean that he was of Jewish origin. The book is also mentions that Samuel was a leader of the Kabar tribe, which was Jewish. It is certain that he had to convert to Christianity when he married a Hungarian princess, but it was probably only a formality for him, and he didn't care much for Christianity; that's why Stephen I appointed not him but another person, Peter Urseolo as his successor. He was favored by those who opposed Christianity (which was fairly new in Hungary then), and with their support he became king, deposing Peter, who defeated him 3 years later. Alensha 17:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * eh, I might as well write his article instead of typing on a talk page :-) Alensha 17:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Holocaust Memorial Budapest

Regarding this Place: Testimonies from the family Jakobovics in newspapers 1947 in Holland:

http://www.spacetime-sensor.de/wallenberg.htm

I suggest the translation of the Holland newspapers from 1947. Objective: more audience in english. Can You help me translating? Regards Tamas Szabo

dbforum@compuserve.de

---

George Mantello
I plan to work on creating a stub or starter article on this person on my next personal "Wikipedia Day," but in the meantime, here's a short list of articles that others could use to add information on this diplomatic figure who is said to have played a key role in starting the international protest against sending Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz:


 * El Salvador's Holocaust Hero
 * Switzerland Awakens - specifically states that the international outcry began with Mantello
 * Jerry P. Shinley Archive: George Mantello and The Politics of Genocide - this site seems to have some info questioning the legitimacy of one of the claims about Mantello
 * George Mantello, by Rafael Angel Alfaro Pineda, Vice Minister of Foreign Relations, 1994 - however, note that author represents a country that stands to gain from Mantello being recognized
 * Mantello discussed on page 113 - author very critical of the Swiss, specifically claims that "Mantello (NOT the Swiss)" was the source of the international outcry
 * German-language article
 * Argentinian article, in Spanish, mentions Mantello - I'm working on translating this one
 * Hungarian-language article on the Holocaust

Let's check these out and keep extending the 20th-century portion of the article. Lawikitejana 17:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Job
I found this entry very objective and well edited!! Good Job!! --Csabap 16:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Naftali Krausz
I'm removing the Krausz section. It may have a place in the article if it was properly rewritten although I personally wouldn't include such a thing. The current version however has many problems: It is unsourced, editorializes (has "POV" problems) and I can only assume has serious [WP:NOR|original research] problems. I am also troubled by the opening line "local Jews also suffer from bad public image created by their own extremists". --JGGardiner 18:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't like this section
"Some political conservatives and a significant part of the Hungarian population allege these aims are meant to demolish the very foundations of the Hungarian nation, especially by discriminating against the countryside and the religiously pious. The far right alleges that this agenda is part of a secret Jewish domination plan.

Significant Israeli investments in Hungarian industry and financial economy have been made since 1990 and Jewish intellectuals have enjoyed strong media presence, prompting nationalists and anti-globalization fringes to warn that the government is losing control to foreigners."

This is bullshit if you ask me Frigo 06:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Than erase it. YOu can delete it, and if it is added again, keap deleting as it is unsourced material and not subject to 3rr. 82.81.175.10 21:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Any chance of adding any sources for this stuff?
Any chances of adding sources? 82.81.175.10 21:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Citation tags
Before adding a citation tag to the article, check the Jewish Encyclopedia, most of the information comes from there. Squash Racket (talk) 10:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That is not sufficiently detailed sourcing. However, at the very least that should be stated publicly for readers, which I didn't see.

phantom casualties of Holocaust
I deleted an absurd paragraph, calculation, and conclusion based on "probable births" in the Holocaust. Having the number of "casualties" include those (new-born) wou "might have been" is a mockery of statistics of a specific event. Any example of any casualty--or any car crash, or any delayed flight, for that matter--could result in any number of events. Then to calculate, and to say, that "what we now have" (the text I deleted), is a figure of x+(a spurious y) gives results that not only are absurd but disavow any coherent discussion. Yes, imagine had 500,000 people lived all the kids they could have had, based on some "natural growth" phenomenon. Some might even have grown up to be President. It must be left at that. Shlishke (talk) 17:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

use english first, then hungarian in parens; level of accuracy

 * 1) Please use English first; please use English translations at all in some cases;


 * 1) Level of accuracy --to two places e.g., "Of the immigrants 38.35 per cent came from Moravia, 11.05 per cent from Poland, 11.05..." is kind of silly, even if the cited source said it. I will round it off.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shlishke (talk • contribs) 09:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic content -- "Keys to the city"
I have deleted this passage referring to the Turkish conquest of Budapest:

I don't know how accurate the story is about Jews handing over the keys to the city, I have never read or heard about that before.

on grounds that it

(1) is personal experience of someone not shown to be an authority -- note the first-person diction

(2) contains weasel words that render it devoid of possible resolution for truth or falsity,

and most of all --

(3) the contention that "Jews handed the keys to Budapest to the Turks" likely has origins in hate speech that might be a fabrication as late as the 20th century.

The canard that the Jews are a fifth column readily serving any hated conqueror that becomes a nemesis of that country in its history is all too frequent. It is a very common charge against Jews, often unfounded or over-simplified with respect to contemporary events.

In view of 20th-century antisemitic causes active in Hungary, especially during the era of Nazi influence and Arrow Cross rule, it is understandable that the claim that "Jews gave the keys to Budapest to the (hated) Turks" could be a recent fabrication as another libel against Jews.

To restore this material one absolutely must have a reliable source, even if one intends to debunk it. A statement that one "has never read anything confirming or denying the story" requires that one be a proven expert in Hungarian history and a specialist in the era in question. That unlikely, then the contention necessitates a written source contemporaneous with the alleged "betrayal" of Budapest or a reference within an unbiased account from a later time. It must show that such "keys" existed, that they gave possession of some critical installation (castle or fortress) and were not simply symbolic (such as the symbolic "keys to the city" that won't unlock so much as a vending machine) often offered to a visiting dignitary, that the person turning the keys over was a Jew, that the turnover of the keys is not an innocent mistake and not under torture, and that the action was not made under some delegation of authority that might have saved Hungarian gentile lives. As a rule, Jews had less to fear from the Turks for opening a palace gate than might a Christian noble or soldier surrendering custody of the edifice.

In any event, "maybe it did and maybe it didn't" or "nobody knows" not only proves nothing -- but says nothing except perhaps to revive a piece of religious bigotry.

Trianon in 1919?
"While popular at first, the so-called Hungarian Soviet Republic fared poorly in almost all of its aims, particularly its efforts to regain territories lost to Slovakia and Romania in the Treaty of Trianon."

The Treaty of Trianon was signed a year later, those territories were merely occupied at that point in history, for one. Secondly, there was no Slovakia to speak of in 1919 either. And thirdly, I dont see why we have to use "so-called" before Hungarian Soviet Republic. --89.133.18.29 (talk) 16:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Kudos on Holocaust Account
Two years ago, I originally wrote the first draft of the section on the Holocaust in response to someone's request at the top of this Talk Page. I drafted it as I wrote it, without consulting any reference works, as I've been a student of this period for many years. Well, today, I just took a glance at it and, although my original draft remains the skeleton of today's account, it has been almost completely rewritten and/or changed, with literally hundreds of changes. I would say that virtually every one is an improvement on my original text: Inaccuracies have been corrected, some of my clumsy language has been rendered more felicitously, the narrative flows more smoothly and clearly, and scores of simply flawed phraseology and/or errors have been improved/corrected. It reads so much better, and I just wanted to say kudos to every editor who helped create what is now a much better account. 66.108.110.241 (talk) 18:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Allen Roth

Title?
Why was the title of this article changed to Hungarian Jews, from History of the Jews in Hungary? While there is a redirect from the original title, this piece is not about Hungarian Jews--their characteristics, culture, etc. (although such an article would make for a lot of entertaining reading). This article is specifically about their history, and should be reverted to the previous title. Someone, please, carry out this program; I haven't edited in a while, and I wouldn't know where to begin (vote on Talk Page, etc.). This is a confusing error, especially for someone coming to this subject who knows very little about it. 66.108.89.8 (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC) Allen Roth

Hungarian jews
Well some one dose need to start an article on hungarian jews, even just statisticle list of thier populations in preasent countries and a link to this article would be something.--J intela (talk) 12:57, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Size of the Dohány Street Synagogue
Twice the article says that the Dohány Street Synagogue is the second-largest in the world, yet the Wikipedia article on the synagogue itself claims that it is the fifth-largest. A minor point in some ways, but it looks odd to a reader. Is there any way of establishing its ranking in terms of size (by which I think is meant physical size or, probably, capacity rather than size of membership)? Ondewelle (talk) 22:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Wrong date
Under communist rule (1944-56), discrimination against the small number of Jews remaining in Hungary continued.

Change this either to: "Under communist rule (1947-56)..." or: "Under communist rule (1949-56)..."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_People%27s_Republic — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.209.96.174 (talk) 09:49, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Potential Problem with an Image
An IP editor has added this image (to the right) to the article. My problem with it is that it is not clear to me whether the picture shows Hungarian Jews. If you click on the image and read the source (from the German Federal Archive), there is not a word about those victims being *Hungarian*. This is the direct source of the image, but I do not see any information there which would indicate that they were Hungarians. K &oelig;rte F  a  { ταλκ }  13:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Please go to the Auschwitz Album article where it states clearly when and how the images were taken. They were recorded in May 1944 when the gas chambers were at full blast killing Hungarian Jews, as the captions on these pictures shows. What do you want: for the victims to show their passports to the camera? If you are in denial about such Holocaust matters then that is a quite different question. 86.186.153.228 (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your answer. If this image is indeed from the Auschwitz Album, then you are right, as that album contains photos about the arrival of Hungarian Jews from Carpatho-Ruthenia to Auschwitz. However, how do you know that this photo is from that album? It is not stated on the description page of the image and I do not see that photo on-line on the website of Yad Vashem, either. The description of the image (if you click on it) states that it is from the German Federal Archive, where its caption is: "KZ Auschwitz-Birkenau, alte Frau und Kinder", so they do not claim that the people on the image are Hungarian Jews. My question is: how do we know that this image is from the Auschwitz Album? K &oelig;rte F  a   { ταλκ }  10:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * PS: I suggest, we should change the image to this one, since it is surely from the Auschwitz Album (it is on the website of Yad Vashem, as well), so it is certain that it shows Hungarian Jews. What do you think?  K &oelig;rte F  a   { ταλκ }  10:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem is more complicated than you suggest. The caption detail ascribes the image to SS Walter (who also appears to have produced the Auschwitz album, according to the article). Many pictures are known to be missing from the album as shown on Yad Vashem. I think it most likely that it comes from the Auschwitz album, but agree that there seems to be some uncertainty about attribution, so use the alternate pic as you suggest. On the other hand, the image does have some immediate impact....86.186.153.228 (talk) 07:34, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I did not notice that the same SS Walter took that image, as well. Nevertheless, since we are not sure whether it is from the Auschwitz Album, I have replaced it with the one linked above. K &oelig;rte F  a   { ταλκ }  18:03, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The image above, in the Auschwitz Album at http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/traveling_exhibitions/auschwitz_album/panel_2.asp  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.147.138 (talk) 16:44, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Sopron medieval synagogue
The ruinous synagogue which can be seen on the picture is the so called Paprét synagogue, itself built in 1891. The two (much smaller) medieval synagogue can be found in Új utca, in a more central part of the town. Drkazmer Just tell me... 23:07, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Diversify the collage
I think the collage should include people from different fields of activity, having the diversity in mind. It makes no sense to show e.g. 4 distinguished physicists. Therefore I propose to replace 2 physicists: Theodore von Kármán and Edward Teller by Hannah Szenes (war hero, female) and either Adolph Zukor (founder of Paramount Pictures) or alternatively István Szabó (film director). Opinions? Alternative suggestions? --Off-shell (talk) 21:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Giorgio Perlasca
Shouldn't Giorgio Perlasca be included among the people who saved Hungarian Jews during the Holocaust? --Webbie1234 (talk) 22:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Difficult to read
The content is of course very important, I needed to have more info preparing for my trip to Hungary and I am wiser, thanks. But I find this article very hard/difficult to read. This needs editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.224.228 (talk) 13:05, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

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Henryk Sławik
Henryk Sławik issued false documents saving about 5 000 of Polish Jews in Hungary. He was supported by the Antall family (József Antall). Xx236 (talk) 10:07, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Professor Braham has died
Just an FYI: I have greatly expanded his Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_L._Braham), with an updated bib of English and Hungarian work; note see his recent work fighting the resurgence to this day of Orban antisemitism as political platform.

The obituary and accompanying eulogy from the Association of Hungarian Jewish Religious Communities published today in Hungarian Spectrum is quite nice: http://hungarianspectrum.org/2018/11/25/in-memoriam-randolph-l-braham-1922-2018/

Professor Braham was my father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.138.7 (talk) 01:08, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Please receive my deepest condolences! I am remebering him watching in the television, when he made recognized one of his helpers to survive to the Righteous Among the Nations award, a Hungarian. Thank you for your contributions!


 * Regarding what you have written about the "political platform", calling Orbán as "antisemite" or speaking about "Orbán antisemitism" is not appropriate; such accusations never have been proven - considering his party's policy and prominent Jewish members in the party as always without any antisemite policy - moreover his party introduced the Holocaust Commemoration Day in Hungary; speaking about "these days", the Fidesz government declared zero-tolerance to anti-semitism and the relations between Hungary and Israel was never so good as nowadays. I have to tell the accusation of "anti-semitism" tendentiously came from those political powers holding opposite political views or platform, as such accusation have been common from the left-wing political parties througout Europe to right-wing parties, politicians. Today such cannot be taken anymore serious.(KIENGIR (talk) 01:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC))

New research and published material on current politics (one article from 1993; many others very recent); Randolph Braham
Some of the revised bibliography and particularly the external references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_L._Braham will be of interest. My father, Professor Braham, died two days ago and I've been revising his Wiki non-stop, and simply do not have the strength to encapsulate and evaluate the material for possible inclusion here. He lived and died for truth and truth alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shlishke (talk • contribs) 22:49, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Didn't see note above
Ninja'ed on news of Professor Braham's death...but my thoughts and suggestions remain. God speed for all the editors and posters here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shlishke (talk • contribs) 22:51, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Plagiarism
Vast sections of this article have been copied word-for-word from —

Singer, Isadore; et al., eds. (1906). The Jewish Encyclopedia …. vol. 6. New York, New York & London, England: Funk and Wagnalls Co. pp. 494–503.

Entire paragraphs of The Jewish Encyclopedia … have been copied word-for-word into this article.

For example, the following paragraph from this article's "Early history (1095–1349)" section was copied word-from-word from p. 494 of The Jewish Encyclopedia … :

''The year 1240 was the closing one of the fifth millennium of the Jewish era. At that time the Jews were expecting the advent of their Messiah. The Mongol invasion in 1241 seemed to conform to expectation, as Jewish imagination expected the happy Messianic period to be ushered in by the war of Gog and Magog. Béla IV (1235–1270) appointed a Jewish man named Henul to the office of court chamberlain (the Jewish Teka had filled this office under Andrew II); and Wölfel and his sons Altmann and Nickel held the castle at Komárom with its domains in pawn. Béla also entrusted the Jews with the mint; and Hebrew coins of this period are still found in Hungary. In 1251 a privilegium was granted by Béla to his Jewish subjects which was essentially the same as that granted by Duke Frederick II the Quarrelsome to the Austrian Jews in 1244, but which Béla modified to suit the conditions of Hungary. This privilegium remained in force down to the Battle of Mohács (1526).''

If the The Jewish Encyclopedia … no longer enjoys copyright protection, then there should be a notice somewhere on the page of this article that large sections of the article have been copied from the The Jewish Encyclopedia ….

VexorAbVikipædia (talk) 02:55, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Hungary had two Jewish origin prime ministers after 1990
József Antall was maternally Jewish origin, and Gyula Horn was paternally Jewish origin. Read: https://web.archive.org/web/20201026162704/https://mazsihisz.hu/hirek-a-zsido-vilagbol/mazsihisz-hirek/mai-szuletesnapos-horn-gyula-egy-zsido-munkasfiu-es-miniszterelnok-es-meg-egy-meglepetes --Durnheim (talk) 07:26, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

The section in Interwar years in citing complete fiction and is neo-nazi propaganda
''In the first few decades of the 20th century the Jews of Hungary numbered roughly 5 percent of the population. This minority had managed to achieve great commercial success, and Jews were disproportionately represented in the professions, relative to their numbers. In 1921 Budapest, 88% of the members of the stock exchange and 91% of the currency brokers were Jews, many of them ennobled. In interwar Hungary, more than half and perhaps as much as 90 percent of Hungarian industry was owned or operated by a few closely related Jewish banking families. ''

Is coming form a complete work of fiction and is blames the Jews for antisemitism. Ummmbacon (talk) 14:11, 9 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I've replaced the citation with a citation needed tag. This does indeed appear to be an invalid reference. — Czello 14:58, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The issue (which I fixed and was just reverted) is that the page was written in such a way as to excuse antisemitism and was using a work of fiction to do so, the page has multiple issues like this and it is filled with either Huingarian apologia or nazi apologia. I had included a journal article with stats in my edit. Ummmbacon (talk) 15:10, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * That does absolutely nothing to fix the problem. This needs to be removed until a citation can be provided and verified- right now it's just blatantly stating antisemitic propaganda as fact. We shouldn't allow this level of propaganda to be stated as fact with a mere citation needed tag, that is extremely misleading. Dragonmag170 (talk) 15:18, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed, this page needs major work in general, but that section is egregious and a citation needed tag is so insufficient as to be comical. newmila (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Why are there two separate "interwar years" sections? These should obviously be combined/synthesized. This section is also far too long, though I'm leery of removing information that may not be available in any other English-language form if it's accurate. GordonGlottal (talk) 21:37, 9 November 2022 (UTC)