Talk:History of the Jews in Russia/Archive 1

Jews do not mind being called a nationality. After the Holocaust they didnt like being called a race,but Judaism more or less defines itself as a national identity. Alexbmn

I started this article. I'm nowhere near done, however. So don't worry if it seems like just a draft.

I'd also like other user to make some contributions. Though I have some expertise regarding some aspects of Soviet Union, this is not one of them. Perhaps others would like to add chronicles of some poignant episodes, such as expounding on the Doctors Plot. I'm content to stay general, but the more information the better.

172

I will go through this more thoroughly later today, however, there seems to be certain omissions. For 172, two books that immediately come to mind are Veidlinger's Moscow State Yiddish Theater: Jewish Culture on the Soviet Stage, which discusses the Jewish cultural Renaissance and its demise during Soviet times and Rapaport's Stalin's War Against the Jews, which discusses the purges through the Doctor's Plot (I happen to have them both on my desk at work). Attitudes toward Kaganovitch are not, however, indicative of the overall attitude toward the Jewish minority in the Soviet Union, which are more complex than as portrayed in this article. Danny

One comment I will make now is that it seems to over-emphasize the significance of Zionism in the pre-war years. Mention is also due to the Anti-Fascist League, which was prominent in the WW2 era. Danny

I realize that the content of the article heavily focuses on Zionism; this is an important topic nonetheless since Zionism was the second major Jewish movement crushed by Soviet authorities following the breakup of the Jewish Labor Bund under the tutelage of Lenin. And remember that restrictive Soviet emigration policies, particularly with regards to its Jewish population, drew significant amounts of Western criticism during the Cold War. Remember the Jackson-Pollack legislation? It’s also significant in light of the huge proportion of the Jewish population within the former Soviet Union that has emigrated to Israel in recent years. I do realize that this article is heavily weighted toward the pre-war years, but it is a work in progress.

I do apologize, however, for omitting the Anti-Fascist League by mistake. I’m stunned that I left it out somehow. I believe that I did write a paragraph or two on that topic. Perhaps it got lost with all the cutting, pasting, and editing. Oh well, that’s my mistake. I’d appreciate it if you added it. Otherwise, I’ll get around to it.

Your above comments, however, misrepresent the article's contents. The Doctor's Plot is mentioned, but it doesn’t require vast amounts of attention since it is still a matter of idle historical speculation of a crisis averted. Feel free to add content about the Doctor’s Plot, but keep that in mind. I’m familiar with Veidlinger's work as well, but also keep in mind that this is a general historical narrative and the article already deals with Jewish institutions, even ones of an artistic nature.

172

The article is light on concrete specifics, as it is a work in progress, but the framework for addressing what you cited as the gradual persecution of Jews under Stalin is already there. And really that what's needed for the beginning. For instance, at one point I believe that the article briefly states that Soviet Jews were “were the immediate benefactors of, but long-term victims of the Marxist notion that any manifestation of nationalism is "socially retrogressive", a notion threatening to Jewish cultural institutions, the Jewish Labor Bund, Jewish autonomy, and Zionism.” The article thus goes into considerable detail explaining the problems of Marxist internationalism and the national question of the Jewish people. It does make it clear that the Jewish identity is supposed to fade away according to Marx's ideal. It introduces why and when Stalin often contradicted that ideal and when he switched sides on that debate depending on other conditions; and, of course, the recognition of Israel comes to mind along with the founding to the Jewish Autonomous Soviet Socialist Oblast in Birobidzhan. It also goes over how the Soviets were able to get around their ideology (which really doesn't have a framework for dealing with Jews in a socialist society on a theoretical level) by labeling them as an ethnic group, which is deserving of autonomy according to Leninist "self-determination" so long as it has a territorial base. It mentions that upon the disillusion of the USSR that Jews were considered the 11th largest nationality. And this goes to the fundamental question of what is a Jew.

Thus, the article is a framework for future contributions since it addresses the state's ideals and how it dealt with its Jewish population according to these ideals and how it often contradicted these ideals (often to the benefit of the Jewish identity) pragmatically due to other factors.

I’m not sure where the leading scholars of the period and the topic might disagree with certain key aspects of the position in the article either (if it is taking any controversial position for that matter). I haven’t really taken a position on the Doctor’s Plot; I just didn’t go into great detail on it, contented to develop a general narrative that can be expounded by specifics that any contributor can feel free to add.

I think that the brief section on Kaganovich is throwing you off, probably leading you to think that the article was suggestion that everything was great once the Bolsheviks liberated the Jews from the backward-thinking unenlightened Czarist tyrants. It was there not to suggest that the interest of Soviet Jews always coincided with the Soviet state, but just to suggest that there is a difference between the primitive anti-Semitism of the Czarist past and the caviler anti-Semitism of Marxist internationalism which suggests that the Jewish identity will fade a way once the revolution puts an end to the class struggle and rids society of primitive superstitions. So, it gets into the irony that I think you were describing earlier of an ideology that condemns prejudice against individuals of Jewish backgrounds but still manages to suggest that all would be better if the Jewish identity "withered away" through the abandonment of non-universal institutions and religion.

Please be patient with me as well. Despite my Polish Jewish linage, contemporary Jewish history (especially literary, artistic, religious, and cultural developments) is very far from my areas of expertise, which is quite obvious considering the scope of my usual contributions.

The article I posted is more of a framework for discussing broad sociological trends and the relationship between the Marxist-Leninist state and its Jewish population. So please, add as much as possible, especially weak areas like the ones that I’ve mentioned.

172

I'm more than willing to give you all the time you need with it. It will be an interesting addition to the general "Nationality Question in the Soviet Union" issue. Some general points you might consider adding are the number of prominent Jews involved in early Soviet politics (Kamenev, Zinoviev, Sverdlov, Trotsky, Radek, Kaganovich, etc.), Yiddish culture (which flourished pre-WW2--Yiddish was an official language of the Belorussian SSR), and Jewish nationalist samizdatliterature (Zisselman is a good start there--I actually edited the first draft of her book). I'm off for a few days. Waiting to see where it leads. Danny

172 writes "minor NPOVing. We can't state outright that anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism."


 * Sorry; I should have caught that. I do mean to say, however (in a later part of this article) that the Soviet Union used anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism.  Still, this article seems to me to be missing some important elements: the terror that the average Jew in the Soviet union had, living in a regime that would reach out and imprison them without rational reason.  This article misses all the conspiracy theory which drove many of the anti-Semitic policies. RK 02:08, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

--- This article by and large is fairly balanced. If anything, it's a little titled on the negative side. For instance, the incredible social mobility and rising living standards enjoyed by Jews after 1917 receives most of its attention in the context of the assimilation that it brought along with it, and the resulting decline of religious and cultural customs. Although I'm mostly responsible for this, one could argue that this is turning a positive into a negative. 172 02:27, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC) --

Comments
No Jewish Settlements before the pale? Come on, not many sure, but none, there were Jewish settlements in China and India. e.g. 1) Granted Khazaria was a temporary phenomenon, still The Jews of Khazaria; by Kevin Alan Brook. 360 pages, 6" x 9" size, Jason Aronson Inc., publishers; 3rd printing, September 2002: ISBN 0-7657-6212-9 (paperback/softcover). Originally published April, 1999, ISBN 0-7657-6032-0 (1st & 2nd printings: cloth/hardcover).

"The Jews of Khazaria recounts the eventful history of the Turkic kingdom of Khazaria, which was located in eastern Europe and flourished as an independent state from about 650 to 1016."

"The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, and archaeological discoveries. For instance, the book contains archaeological data from sites such as Chelarevo (Serbia), Ellend (Hungary), Sarkel (Russia), Balanjar (North Caucasus), Semikarakovskoye (Russia), Navahradak (Belarus), and Birka (Sweden)."

Further details on the WWW (including many Web sites from which the book can be purchased): The Jews of Khazaria

2) 1727 May 07 Jews are expelled from Ukraine by Empress Catherine I of Russia. ... Can't be expelled unless they are there.
 * Ukraine was the part of Poland, seized in 1686. Jews were present only in Poland and for a short period in the areas that were taken over from Poland.


 * Partition of Poland generally refers to 1772 and later ... there were Jews in Russia before that time (as evidence indicates). Ukraine was once controlled by Poland just as it was once  governed by Russia and is now independent.  And do you really believe that there was not a single Jewish person in as large a country as Russia, that every single person of Jewish ancestory or belief was expelled.  I will just delete the sentence as it stands. dml

3) http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=479&letter=R&search=russia#1396

Old talk
Hello, 145.xxx.etc. I would have answered on your talk page, but you do not have one yet. First, welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you continue to contribute. As for your question regarding Jewish settlement in Russia, you are right in that it first occurred rather late--however, it was earlier than 1772. Some of the confusion that you rightly pointed out regards the boundaries of Russia and Poland before the partition--much of Ukraine was actually under Polish rule, the Crimea and the Caucasus were not yet under Russian rule, etc. However, I will give some early dates in Russia proper, based on two sources: 1) Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, Vol. 1 (JTS, 1916), and 2) Pinkus, B., The Jews of the Soviet Union (Cambridge University Press, 1990). According to Dubnow, the first substantial Jewish population in Russia came with the annexation of Little Russia in 1654. According to Pinkus, there were already Jewish merchants attached to the army of Dmitry the Pretender in 1605-1606. He adds that a Russian law passed in 1644 proscribed a death penalty for anyone attempting to convert people from the Russian faith and circumcise them--this can only be a reference to Jews. Peter the Great did allow apostasized Jews to settle in Russia and even allowed practicing Jewish bankers to settle in Moscow (Jewish cloth merchants apparently settled in Moscow illegally, so that in 1676 it was necessary to renew an order expelling them from the city. When Catherine I expelled the Jews from all Russian domains in 1727 (the problemt ostensibly began with the building of a synagogue in Zverovich, near Smolensk. The ukase began: "It has come to our attention that some Jews in our Empire, and particularly in Little Russia, continue to live there under false pretences ...), there was an outcry from nobles who required them to fill certain economic positions. There was a blood libel in Gorodnya, Little Russia, in 1702. Toward the end of his reign, Peter the Great allowed Lipmann Levy, a banker and "court Jew" to settle in St. Petersburg. According to one Russian historian (though I believe it to be an exaggerration) 35,000 Jews were expelled from Russia in 1753. I can go on, but this should serve to base my case. Danny 00:15, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks! It was exactly what I wanted to hear. There were some settlement, although against the general rule, that Jews were not allowed.

Move (2003)

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I suggest to move the article to "History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union", since this is what this article actually is: (1) pre-revolution Russia, USSR, (3) postsoviet Russia. If no serious objections in 10 days, I'll do it. Mikkalai 17:50, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

More old talk
The following piece cut from the body:


 * Anti-Semitism was probably reduced by 1930, but not wholly by ideological campaigns, such as Yevslektsia, a government entity meant to expose anti-Semitic incidents closed in 1930 by Stalin, citing reduced anti-Semitism due to Soviet policies.

The wikipedian probably misunderstood something somehere. The (correctly named) Yevsektsiya article explains the issue more clearly. Mikkalai 01:37, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Double redirects
172: Next time please watch for double redirects yourself. Mikkalai 09:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

einsatzgruppen
Why were the einsatzgruppen removed? It may have little to do with the USSR but it has a lot to do with the Jews in Russia. Andries 11:58, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I have removed that empty section: IMHO, it belongs to the Shoah, but if you strongly think otherwise, fine with me. Arguably, more relevant to this article would be a section regarding the Jews' yesterday's neighbors and even old friends (most notably some Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.) who volunteered to collaborate with the Nazis in their extermination. Even after the war, the incidents analogous to the Kielce pogrom were ocurring in other places, too. We should not forget the Righteous among the nations who saved many Jews risking their own and their children's lives.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;Talk 06:41, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, it does belong in the article althought may be under a different title e.g. "Jews under Nazi occupation"? The Nazis killed thousands of Jews so leaving this completely unmentioned is ridiculous. Andries 18:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Persecution of Jews in Russia
Didn't serious [not light] persecution of Jews in Russia actually begin during the late 1800s? Marcus2 22:23, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What is 7-40?
Supposedly it is a song related to emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union. What is known about this? &mdash; Monedula 11:16, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * AFAIK, it is a Jewish folk song. See   &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;Talk 17:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Integration?
"Integration of the Jews and movement from countryside shtetls ..." Should this perhaps be "assimilation" rather than "integration"? Or do I misunderstand? -- Jmabel 08:21, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Having received no response, I have made this change. -- Jmabel 02:13, 30 September 2004 (UTC)

This is inaccurate
''Law throughout Soviet history, however, listed Jews as one of the union's "basic nations", with their own language (Yiddish), and their own autonomous region — a failed, inhospitable settlement in Siberia that was nonetheless symbolic. The word "Yevrei" or "Jew" is also listed in the nationality section (an infamous "pyataja grafa", or "fifth record") of the obligatory internal passport document, which states the nationality of all Soviet citizens. Such treatment of the Jews as a nationality is somewhat alien to Jewish law, but reminiscent of Zionism. In May 1976, the Soviet journal Party Life prominently even displayed Jews as a distinct "nationality." However many Jews who recall the Holocaust, mistrust being classified as a "nationality" (preferring a more appropriate classification as a religion).''

This is absolutely not true. Eastern European Jews identify themselves as an ethnic group or "nationality." Most are quite proud about their secular Jewish traditions, and the vast majority are atheists who identify with the culture of Judaism.

Being classified as a "nationality" wasn't a problem. It was the discrimination that usually ensued when a person was identified as a Jew that was the problem.

Kettle 15:42, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Any reason there is no discussion of...
Or for that matter, how it is possible to have a serious article about the history of judaism during the marxist age, if you censor the marxist doctrine of judaism that explains it? It is funny and obviously self-explain by the fact that judaism is the only culture that has never been able to explain in a rational, scientific manner history, but only with myths and subjective opinions, which obviously perpetuates its historic cycles. This is the piece which is censored, for the record: The fundamental book of Marxism on Judaism is 'The Jewish question' by Karl Marx, followed by 'Judaism and capitalism', by Sombart, and the 'Jewish question' by Abraham Leon, himself a Jew, who died in a concentration camp. In those books the role of Judaism is essential to capitalism. Judaism is considered a Go(l)d culture whose religion was created a 'posteriori', to strengthen the role of the People-caste (Leon), as the exploiter of the Peasant class (Neolithic age, Marx), the organizers of slave trade (Roman, Middle ages, Leon) and exploiters of the Workers class (industrial age, Sombart). In the tradition of Moses, 'the jewish will suffer all their history for their love of gold' the Holocaust cycle is explained as the action-reaction process of those exploited by Jewish Capital, who murder their exploiters. The self-fullfilling prophecy of marxism took place both in Germany where Hitler ended his speeches saying 'the death of the Jewish will be the wealth of the Germans', and the same Russia, where pogroms extended during the civil war and revolution age. While there was a brief moment of brotherhood, in the belief that Judaism was a capitalist culture not a racial trait and hence Jewish could be converted, the demise of Trostky, returned to an officious age of antisemitism.
 * 1) Influence of Haskalah in Russia and the consequent changes in the character of Russian Jewry?
 * 2) The government-run liberal rabbinical schools in the mid-to-late 19th century, such as the one at Zhitomir?
 * 3) Relative loosening up on several fronts (e.g. somewhat easier for Jews to get gov't jobs, somewhat better treatment in the military) during the reign of Alexander II, followed by very harsh repression right afer his assassination?
 * 4) Conversely, I believe that it is entirely wrong to say "During the reign of Alexander III the first pogroms against the Jews happened in Russia." I'm not sure when pogroms began, but Passover was a time of moderate-to-severe terror against Jews long before the reign of Alexander III. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:07, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

Those concepts, though historically correct, are today considered by the natural control of information that capital exercizes over historic truths, 'antisemitic' statements, which are relegated to the free-press of the blogosphere. Certainly not the wikipedia... And yet history can't be denied as it will always follow its own systemic truths... That is the 'jewish paradox', by censoring systematically the 'worldy culture of Judaism (which is ) Gold' Marx, the Jewish question, the classist traits of judaism (Leon), which consists in not-contact with gentiles, as a way to control them through salaries and money (Sombart), will be enacted, and the periodic anger of the poor, will end up in revolutions and holocausts. If judaism were able to have an objective analysis of history with its good and bad sides, its peculiar way of exploiting the poor (war against palestines instead of investment on them, for example), will end and reconciled with mankind they will end also the holocaust cycle. The present actions in gaza, the way in which russians took over them after Yukov's affair, etc. shows that regardless of censorship, the cycles of history will be played again: go(l)d explotaition and murder=holocaust. Shalom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.67.45 (talk) 17:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

UkrSSR
UkrSSR it the abreviation for Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. This was official name of the part of the Soviet Union which became Ukraine after desintegration of the USSR in 1991. The regional branch of the Academy of Sciencies of the USSR had official name "Academy of Sciencies of UkrSSR". Please do not revert my correction. Andry


 * I get 21,400 Google hits for "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences", another 400 for "Ukranian Academy of Sciences", and 30 for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR", and 147 for "Academy of Sciences of the UkrSSR". "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" is by far the most common English name for the organization. Please do not revert my correction, or you will have violated the Three revert rule, and will be subject to banning. Jayjg (talk) 21:13, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * The reason is that UkrSSR existed before the Internet boom. That's why you have found so little hits for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR". See Ukrainian SSR. The names of the Academy at different times are listed in the Ukrainian version of wikipedia in the article "Akademija nauk Ukrajiny" (should be typed in Cyrillic letters, of cause).
 * "Dozens of research institutes in various fields formed the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR." This is the citation from the article Kiev Andriy


 * I see, you have corrected. Thanks. Andriy

censuses
according to, the 1989 census gives 537,000 Jews, not 1.45 million as shown in our table. I don't know if the difference is due to Russia vs. Soviet Union, this would mean that close to one million live in non-Russian Soviet territories. If this is the case, more than half the decrease since 1970 will be due to a changed population base and not to emigration or assimilation. As always, it is of course difficult to identify Jews qua ethnicity (as opposed to religion), and the census probably reflects self-identification; The 2002 census gives 230,000 Jews, and this is for Russia only, but it may exclude minor groups like the Tats classified as separate ethnicities; these will not amount to more than a couple of thousands however. The vast majority of these 230,000 will be native speaker of a Russian indistinguishable from any other Russian speaker, so unlike most other ethnicities listed in the census, it is not a linguistically defined one, and therefore much more open to interpretation. Baad 09:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Reorg
Quite unexpectedly I found myself reworking the article. I think we should stick with mostly chronological sections, otherwise they step on each other's toes. ←Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 03:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Forgot to say it before, but super job on the reorg, Humus. I took a crack at it awhile ago and gave up, but your take was really great. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Glad you liked it! BTW, I'm planning to unindent the assimilation trends section: it should start much earlier; the problem significantly grew in the 19th century. Perhaps this issue deserves a separate article altogether.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 09:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Soviet reaction to the Holocaust
The article writes, "The official Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocites against Soviet citizens, not acknowledging the genocide of the Jews." This claim is somewhat of an over-simplification, underestimating the often-conflicing nature of Soviet statements on the subject, depending on under the direction of the influence of which state ministry, such as Propaganda, Foreign Affairs, or Education, or which party organ, they were issued. Moreover, there's greater variation depending on changing political realities over time. For example, during the brief period of warm relations between the Soviet Union and Israel, the Soviets made reference to the genocide agaisnt the Jews. Gromyko stated during the UN debate, "The Jewish people had been closely linked with Palestine for a considerable period in history.... As a result of war, the Jews as a people have suffered more than any other people. The total number of the Jewish population who perished at the hands of the Nazi executioners is estimated at approximately six million. The Jewish people were therefore striving to create a state of their own, and it would be unjust to deny them that right." 172 | Talk 03:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * You are correct to note that policies did vary with time. The direction of the "party line" throughout the periods of reigning of Stalin-Khrushchev-Brezhnev was far from straight. The source also had effect, but much less - the regime in the USSR was centralized and authoritarian. In this case, perhaps we should say typically or something to that effect. The policy in question was indeed typical and I can bring more examples if necessary. Gromyko's UN speech belongs in the relevant section and we do cite it. Note that it was intended exclusively for the audience beyond the Iron Curtain.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Good call. In this case, as you say, typically or something to that effect works. Another exception to the generality is that various Soviet academic circles were aware of the genocide against the Jews, though their ability to frame the public discussion of the subject was very limited. 172 | Talk 06:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It is impossible to hide such losses. AFAIK, almost everyone knew, first through experience or stories and then via samizdat. It became one of politically incorrect topics. Maybe the fact that both Khrushchev and Brezhnev came from Ukraine also played a role.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 09:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

"Background"
What is with these phrases like "merchants of Jewish background" and, even more oddly "of Christian background"? Were these not "Jewish merchants" and "Christian merchants"? (Several similar turns of phrase.) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Badly placed PC effort, I assume. I will fix, as it reads awkwardly. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Irrelevant info
I don't see how expulsion from England, the Mongol invasion or the founding of Moscow are relevant to the topic. The following paragraphs probably belong to Anti-Semitism or History of anti-Semitism or some such.

''In Western Europe and England near the end of the 13th century, the governing elite singled out Jews for special oppression. Christian mechants wished to obtain for themselves the profits from trade that Jewish merchants had secured prior to the 12th century. Jews in Western Europe and England were thus pushed-out of their merchant-trader roles and tracked into the economic role of moneylenders to feudal nobles and kings or to peasants and artisans. When the feudal nobles, after being unable to pay back their high-interest loans, subsequently lost their estates to the Jewish bankers who had lent them money, an economic motive would develop for them to massacre, expel or confiscate the property of the Jews.''

''In 1290, for instance, the 3,000 Jews living in England were expelled from that country and their property was confiscated. Sixteen years later, the 100,000 Jews of France were expelled, in 1306. Two years after the bubonic plague spread in 1347 through Western Europe, eliminating one-third of its population, persecution of the Jews in Germany also intensified. Between the end of the 14th century and the beginning of the 16th century, most German towns that were commercial centers forced Jews to leave for either the small village domains of German feudal lords or for Eastern Europe: Jews were expelled from Cologne in 1424, expelled from Strasbourg in 1438, expelled from Augsburg in 1439, expelled from Erfat in 1458, expelled from Nuremberg in 1498, and expelled from Ulm in 1499.'' ←Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 09:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Just chiming in to concur :) Ahasuerus 15:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Russian-language works...
... in the References section should also give English-language transliterations of authors' names and translations of titles. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I'll work on this. &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 09:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Jews and Bolshevism
I disagree with several recent anonymous edits to the section Jews and Bolshevism. They fall around the intersection of nationality, ethnicity, and religion, always tricky territory where the vocabulary can become confusing, but in these case I think the older wordings were better. I figured I'd try to start a discussion rather than merely revert, though if I don't get a response within 24 hours, I will simply revert.

"Many members of the Bolshevik party were ethnically Jewish" became "Many members of the Bolshevik party were formerly Jewish." I believe "ethnically Jewish" is correct. Although I realize that Jewishness is not, in the narrow sense an ethnicity, this is the normal way to refer to people who are Jews but do not practice Judaism. Note that under Jewish law, an apostate is still a Jew: the only way someone ceases to be a Jew is through cherem (the Jewish form of excommunication). To the best of my knowledge, none of the Jewish Bolsheviks were ever excommunicated, at least not by any mainstream community of Jews; cherem is a very rare matter in modern times. Hence, while "ethnically Jewish" is slightly problematic, "formerly Jewish" is quite wrong if "Jewish" here refers to the Jewish people, and at least equally as problematic as "ethnically Jewish" if it refers to Judaism, the Jewish religion: it would imply that each of these people was, as an individual, formerly a practicing Jew; I believe quite a few were not (Leon Trotsky being an obvious example).

Similarly "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire ethnic group can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" became "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire religious community can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" (emphasis mine). But contemporary anti-Semitism is not generally aimed primarily at Jews as a "religious community" but as a ethnic group. The Nazis killed secular Jews (and even Jewish converts to Christianity) just as readily as they killed practicing Jews.

Finally, "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Russian majority" became "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Christian majority." As far as I know, there were no practicing Christians on the Communist Central Committee, and I would be truly astounded to discover otherwise, so if that is the sense of Christian here the "non-Christian majority" is an irrelevancy. If Christian here refers to ancestry, then the statement is false: one would have had to combine the Jews with Latvians, Poles, and perhaps others of Christian ancestry to get a majority of the committee. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with each of your sentiments but am not quite sure what a "non-Russian majority" means in this context... I strongly support the reversion of these edits for the reasons stated. jnothman talk 08:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * We can word that more clearly; the issue is, again, ethnicity. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I also agree. Good catch. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Given the apparent consensus here, I will edit. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Late to the table, but agree as well. Jayjg (talk) 18:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

FA?
Thanks to some amazing work by Humus, I think this is getting close to FA status. What do people think about putting it up for peer review? --Goodoldpolonius2 04:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The post-Sov section is still waiting for its minstrels... I don't feel like it yet.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 09:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The current text is a good start, but it's a bit syntactically challenged at the moment :) Also, there are many minor errors throughout the article (Kaganovich and Molotov were expelled from the Communist Party in 1962, not 1957; Trotsky was not the founder of the Red Army, at least not technically; etc). There are also numerous omissions of relevant information. Off the top of my head:
 * the Decembrists had an interesting proto-Zionist plan to send Russian Jews to Palestine
 * the second phase of the student unrest (1901) that eventually led to the Russian Revolution of 1905 started with a public protest against a play that was widely perceived as anti-Semitic
 * the Pale effectively ceased to exist in 1915 during the Russian retreat on the Eastern Front
 * the 1917 Provisional Government lifted many restrictions on Russian Jews
 * although it's true that "The number of prominent Jewish Old Bolsheviks killed in the purge reflects the fact that Jews were the largest group in the Central Committee", there was an anti-semitic component to Stalin's campaign against the Left Opposition as early as the mid-1920s (see, e.g., Trotsky's Thermidor and anti-Semitism)


 * More importantly, the article as it currently exists is primarily about "History of Russian and Soviet Anti-Semitism" as opposed to "History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union". Surely there is more to be said on the subject? Ahasuerus 13:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh yes, forgot to mention the most glaring omission, the Populists' infamous attempts to exploit the 1881-1882 wave of pogroms to incite a revolution. You can find the relevant documents in Adam Ulam's In the Name of the People: Prophets and Conspirators in Prerevolutionary Russia (1977, 2nd ed. 1998) Ahasuerus 14:47, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Please do contribute to the article, Ahasuerus. BTW, Red Army says: "Credit as the founder of the Red Army generally goes to Leon Trotsky, the People's Commissar for War from 1918 to 1924." Cheers.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 04:23, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd be happy to help, but time is always at a premium and many Wikipedia articles are in considerably worse shape. I just finished re-writing the Leon Trotsky article and beginning to work on getting at least the top tier of the Polish military into some semblance of shape. There is work to be done everywhere from E. W. Hornung to Gustáv Husák and the list goes on and on. In the Russian niche of Wikipedia alone, there are huge gaps all over the place, from Nikolai Sukhanov and Yuri Steklov, arguably the two most important leaders of the February Revolution of 1917, to major writers like Alexei Remizov. What is there, like the Ilya Ehrenburg article, is often so bad as to be almost worthless. The Red Army article is yet another example. Oh well, one of these days...


 * Besides, I am not the best editor to help with Jewish history, which is a thoroughly and comprehensively researched field. There are folks who could do everything that I could do for this article (and more) in 1/10th the time, they just haven't made it here yet :) Ahasuerus 14:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

In the interest of inching towards FA, I put the article up for peer review. --Goodoldpolonius2 20:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Religious life
The article doesn't discuss Jewish religious life in the SU. Isn't it the right place? Xx236 17:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In addition to this article, there is Religion in the Soviet Union and Soviet Union. Check out Category:Status of religious freedom by country, perhaps you want to write Status of religious freedom in the Soviet Union, Status of religious freedom in the Russian Federation, etc. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Mush
This sequence of three sentences is so all-over-the-map is to reduce itself to mush:' "The typical Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocities against Soviet citizens. Given that the first victims of Auschwitz were Soviet prisoners of war, there is some legitimacy to this position. However, official Soviet texts usually did acknowledge the specific genocidal targeting of the Jews."


 * "there is some legitimacy" is POV.
 * the first and third sentences say almost opposite things. The text that follows and the one citation provided bears out the first sentence; the verbal transition to that passage suggests that it is intended to bear out the third.

-- Jmabel | Talk 02:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Conversely...
... is it really appropriate that we only mention Solomon Mikhoels and the Moscow State Jewish Theater in the context of their post-WWII suppression, and not in terms of the thriving secular Jewish culture in Moscow and elsewere in the first decades after the Revolution? - Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Recently added paragraph
The following paragraph was recently added: "The word 'Jew' was also avoided in the media when criticising undertakings by Israel, which the Soviets often accused of racism, chauvinism etc. Instead of Jew, the word Israeli was used almost exclusively, so as to paint its harsh criticism not as anti-Semitism but anti-Zionism."

I suppose. Sort of. But it isn't like when they criticized Austria they referred to the fact that its population were overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, or when they criticized the UK they referred to the fact that its population were largely Anglican. Am I missing something here? - Jmabel | Talk 07:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * the thing is, I've read numerous books on foreign politics dating back to the Soviet era, and when fervently criticising the actions of Israel and Jews there, these 'acts of state terror against Palestinians, national oppression' etc are usually attributed to Israelis, which in my native language sounds linguistically extremely constructed (I'm not reading Russian originals but Soviet era translations). I'm sure they used the Russian word for 'Israeli' in these occasions.


 * Well, to make my sentiment clear: the Soviets used their usual extreme rhetoric against the Jews (Israel) and accused them of whatever thousand sins, but didn't want these accusations (often obvious slander) to look similar to anti-Semitism. Thus, euphemisms were used. --Constanz - Talk 08:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Native Hebrew?
In the section on Alexander "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Hebrew": I doubt there were any significant number of people in the world at the time who had Hebrew as a native tongue. This was an addition with a citation; would you please re-check your source? I'd be really interested in knowing precisely what it said. Since Hebrew was, at that time, primarily a liturgical language, does this mean that Hebrew prayers were illegal? Or perhaps it means to say "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Yiddish"? That seems more likely. Even in that case, though, one must ask: not permitted in what realms of life? I seriously doubt that it was illegal to carry on a conversation in Yiddish at home; I'm sure it was impossible to testify in court or petition over grievances in Yiddish; but where in between did the line fall? Since Yiddish theater had its first great heyday in Russia late in Alexander's term, there could not have been all that much of a prohibition. Or, if it was Hebrew, how did the government-sponsored rabbinical school at Zhytomyr function? - Jmabel | Talk 23:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The questionable statement has now been removed. Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 17:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Plurality of majority of CCC?
This edit changes Jews from a plurality to a majority of the Revolutionary-era Communist Central Committee. I'd like to see a citation for that. - Jmabel | Talk 20:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Recent move (2006)

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I object to the recent move of this from History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union to Russian Jewry. Approximately half of the Jews in Russia at any time in the last century or so are secular and not part of any "Jewry". - Jmabel | Talk 17:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

"Many Jews were Bolsheviks"
This is a fundamentally Antisemitic observation in this context as say that "Many negros commit crimes." I am utterly shocked that our editors fail to see this.
 * How much is little - one? Is rwo Jews too many? It does not matter that a book is cited. Any book which says such a thing is fundamentally racist. One can give a number, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,OOO, etc.
 * But the subtext says "TOO MANY JEWS WERE BOLSHEVIKS"! --Ludvikus 02:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It just states a fact. The number of those of Jewish descent was disproportionately large (the Jews accounted for a much smaller percentage in the total population of Russia/USSR). The causes for this may be complex and there's no subtext to it. The myth of "Jewish Bolshevism" has its own article. Daizus 11:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact it doesn't state any fact. The number of Jews in the Bolshevik movement wasn't disproportionate at all. You confuse this with their number among the leaders of the movement. --SimulacrumDP 15:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Most materials I've read addressing this issue, claim a large number of Jews joined the Bolshevik movement (and other movements of the era). The causes are complex, some are already given in the article. You may disagree with me, but please refrain from giving verdicts on my state of mind. Daizus 16:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

GA Review
After review of this article, I feel that it meets and exceeds the GA standards. Consequently this article is passed and added to the list of Good articles. As I was reading this article I was struck by the amount of information contained herein clearly elaborated on. There are several photographs and a table showing related articles. The prose is clear. I feel that this article needs more cites, though to make through to FA. Dagomar 21:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

History of the Chinese in the Colonies and the United States
As the title of this articke now stands it appears to be original research. How about a follow up: History of the Jews in New York City and the United States. --Ludvikus 13:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Jewish history
The above obviously is the main article. --Ludvikus 13:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

"Many Jews were/did ..."
Beware of this antisemitic entrapment. Most often the word "many" (as well as "few," etc.) is a POV work. It is to be avoided if possible unless a relevant source is quoted, or it otherwise cannot be replaced. A possible alternative is the following: "A notable number of Jews ...". The advantage of that is that it avoids the (often) subjective, or otherwise disputable, alternatives many/few. --Ludvikus 23:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * For example, antisemites claim[ed] that Bolshevism is Jewish. Why? Because "many" Jews were Bolsheviks. But whose to say that the alternative is not closer to the truth: "Few" Jews were Bolsheviks? The choice depends on the complex social theory, or theory of history, one subscribes to. --Ludvikus 23:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Image content clarification
Pages from a purported copy of the birth certificate (Russian: свидетельство о рождении, lit.,Certification of Birth ) of Michael Lucas (Andrei Treivas, or Treyvas), showing information about his birth. It lists his mother's surname as "Treivas" (or "Treyvas") and his father's surname as "Bregman." Under Russian Soviet law, a child automatically inherited his father's surname so long as the father is known and married to the birth mother at the time of birth. This document proves conclusively that Michael Lucas' parents were not married as of the date of his birth.--72.76.86.219 (talk) 22:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested move (2008)

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

A lot of information in the article about Russia, but almost none of other former Soviet-republics (and there are some articles (History of the Jews in Ukraine and History of the Jews in Belarus) who do give this information Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Good article reassessment
I asked for a reassessment about the Good article status. See top of talk page Mariah-Yulia (talk) 02:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * One problem is the sections on modern Ukraine and Belarus themselves, which belong in the History of the Jews in Ukraine and the History of the Jews in Belarus respectively. It makes no sense to have Ukraine as a subsection of "Jews in Russia today".  The information is not about Ukraine as part of the Soviet Union, rather modern Ukraine.  That is exactly what the History of the Jews in Ukraine is for.  I have proposed the merger, and there is very little content (2-3 sentences) in either of those sections so I expect there to be no objections... Ostap 05:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't even know that History of the Jews in Ukraine and History of the Jews in Belarus existed since the see also section didn't list them (I have done that now). I stil don't understand why this article deserves good-article status since it clearly has failed to live up to it's scope (a rename would fix this, see below) Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif
The image Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --06:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Death-toll of Jewish Soldiers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history_%28Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union%29#The_Holocaust

"Over 200,000 Jews died in battle fighting in the Red Army against the Nazis."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Soviet_Jews_participation_in_WW2.png "1946. The official response to an inquiry by JAC about the participation of the Jewish soldiers in the war (1.8% of the total number). Some antisemites attempted to accuse Jews of the lack of patriotism and of hiding from the military service"

Total number of jews fighting for Red army according to the official story document: 123.822

How come over 200.000 jews died fighting for the red army if only 123.822 even participated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.232.67.249 (talk) 22:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Inflated numbers.--Lvivske (talk) 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Untrue. The official response to an inquiry by JAC doc. gives not the number of participants, but the number of those recommended for decoration.Galassi (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Corrections in the tables
I have added a data from the russian census (2002) into the demographic data table and made some references and remarks concerning data from the entire FSU and Russian Federation only.

I believe the Russian Jewish Diaspora section has to be corrected. For example, the data in the Israel table consists of the population from the entire FSU and not Russia only. Therefore, I suggest to rename it to "Russian-speaking Jewish Diaspora". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kostja1975 (talk • contribs) 09:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

887 Pogroms in Ukraine
I have tried to validate the text "Out of an estimated 887 mass pogroms in Ukraine during 1917-1918, about 40% were perpetrated by the Ukrainian forces led by Symon Petliura, 25% by the Green Army and various nationalist/anarchist groups, 17% by the White Army (especially by the forces of Anton Denikin), and 8.5% by the Red Army". It was referenced to Solzhenitsyn's 200 let together. I have looked through the 16th chapter of the book "During the Civil War" and made a google search through the whole text on the number 887 but have found nothing. A similar info is given on a Grani.ru page so I have referenced it to Grani.ru (I hope they have not taken it from wiki). The disputed text said "307 (25 %) банды атаманов Григорьева, Махно, Зеленого и других": 25% are bands of Grigoriev, Makhno, Zeleny and others. I think the correct reference to those group is "various warlords". Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

("Murders during recorded anti-Jewish attacks, 1918-1920"):

Source: Henry Abramson, Jewish Representation in the Independent Ukrainian Governments of 1917-1920, Slavic review, Vol. 50, No. 3 (Autumn, 1991), pp. 542-550 IMO, the number of killed is a better indicator than the number of incidents.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Help expand Racism in Russia
Hello! For any editors who are willing, the article "Racism in Russia" could use some expansion on the "antisemitism" section within that article. Thank you for any help you can offer! --Tea with toast (talk)

I notice there are no women amongst the twelve representative Jewish figures at the top of the page. Could this be rectified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.90.6 (talk) 13:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Image
Image showing Trotsky, Sverdlov and Zinoviev is good illustration for "Jews in the revolutionary movement" section. If there are too many images in the article, then American New Year card (trivial image), or photo of Sergey Brin (left USSR at the age of six, more American Jew then Russian) should be removed. --DonaldDuck (talk) 06:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a picture with a whole bunch of small faces, many not Jewish. A picture of Trotsky (by far the best known) would be better. The postcard is actually of more value, in terms of the social history of the vast majority of Russian Jews, and Brin is one of the most famous (and successful) Russian Jews alive today. Jayjg (talk) 06:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No, for encyclopedia, documentary photograph that depict real event have more value, compared to postcard with artwork. Brin is famous, but this article is about Jews in Russia, not American Jews. --DonaldDuck (talk) 07:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not have strong opinions about keeping or removing images of any people here. As about image in question, it tells "2nd Congress of Soviets", not "Jews at 2nd Congress of Soviets". Hence I tend to agree with Jayig that image is not really relevant. Biophys (talk) 12:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that Brin's picture could be removed, but even then, there are still to many images here, and as Biophys points out, the image isn't an appropriate one. And social histories are not just about pictures of people; other images are at least equally (and typically more) valuable. A face is just a face, two eyes, two ears, a nose and a mouth - not much can be learned about the History of the Jews in Russia from that. Jayjg (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Image of table (File:Soviet Jews participation in WW2.png) may be removed. Relevant figure from this table (1,8% of military decorations were awarded to Jewish soldiers) may be added to article text. --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The table gives a huge amount of information about lots of Russian Jews. The image shows a few tiny faces of a mix of Jews and non-Jews. Jayjg (talk) 23:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Quotation
Not every sourced quotation belongs to the article. Therefore, I deleted this quotation as something that belongs to Stalinist propaganda from 1930s with its typical wording ("cannibalism", etc.). The statement obviously contradicts a lot of factual information, such as the well-known antisemitic campaigns organized by Stalin (rootless cosmopolitans, Doctors' plot, etc.) Let's focus on factual information. Biophys (talk) 19:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * During Stalin's rule most former members of tsarist-era anti-Semitic organizations were shot. Possession of anti-Semitic literature was considered serious crime. This was not just some empty rhetoric, Stalin's quotation is important. --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * @DonaldDuck, a bit late to this, how do we reconcile this to Stalin himself being an anti-Semite (per Khrushchev)? P ЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Incomplete regarding initial invasion of Eastern Europe/Baltics by the USSR
The article does not mention that Jews suffered, proportionally as a percentage of (ethnic) population, more than any other nationality in Stalin's mass deportations from the Baltics (and likely Poland, although I don't know the figures there) prior to the Nazi Germany invasion and the Holocaust. P ЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:39, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I would say, those who were exiled were the luckiest Jews: while most deported Jews survived in exile, the Jews who stayed had been murdered by Nazi (frequently with assistance of local population). That was a rare case when Stalin's repressions helped to save lives of those who had been repressed. I personally knew a Polish Jew who survived in exile (he spent the first part of the war in one Ural city), whereas all his family, 22 persons, perished in Nazi camps.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Jews deported in the mass deportation just prior to the German invasion were taken away to the harshest camps and conditions. Recall, Khrushchev testified in later years to Stalin being a rabid anti-Semite. "Frequence" of local assistance, unfortunately, served the purposes, both real and propagandic, of both the Nazis and Soviets. For example, regarding the extermination of Jews in one town in Lithuania, the official Nazi report blames the locals whereas a German eyewitness wrote to Berlin (both reports in German archives) regarding the same massacre that if word got out it was a small German commando unit that did the exterminating it would not look good for the Nazis. P ЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 02:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Re "Jews deported in the mass deportation just prior to the German invasion were taken away to the harshest camps and conditions." I have no idea where did you take it from. Re Stalin antisemitism, that is true only for the post-war period. Re massacres of the Jews in Lithuania, most of them were orchestrated by Nazi, however, the fact that many Lithuanians participated in them with great enthusiasm is hard to deny.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Odd how Liz Holtzman once stated all Latvians are Nazis--while scholarship indicates a number somewhere in the 300-1,000 range (Arajs Commando and related) as I recall, it's been a while since I read up on the subject. Whereas no one every labels the French all Nazis, although 38,000 Vichy collaborators were convicted. Convicting in the court of popular perception is far more effective than convicting in the court of law, apparently. P ЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The statement "All ( any nation name ) are Nazi" is by definition false (this is not true even for the Germans themselves), so I think we can safely ignore such opinions. Of course, if that is really what this author says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * @Paul. Please see A Travel to the Land Ze-Ka, probably one of the best books about Gulag. Author was a Polish Jews who described in much detail how other Polish Jews (and others) perished in Gulag. Biophys (talk) 04:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see the Ellman's article I cited on the Gulag talk page: witness testimonies are not good sources for general conclusions, and they frequently give distorted pictures, per this historian. In addition, a major part of the population of the annexed territories was exiled, not imprisoned in Gulag. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Russian text of the book. Biophys (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Regretfully, all of what he writes is true, however, is it sufficient to make generalisations you do?
 * "Furthermore, the use of unofficial sources introduces an important bias into our study of Soviet repression and penal policy, in favour of politicals and against criminals. Although only a minority of the inhabitants of the Gulag were officially classified as 'counterrevolutionaries'( although, as is agreed by all the participants in this debate, the division between criminals and politicals was blurred under Soviet conditions), the unofficial or literary sources mainly derive directly or indirectly from the politicals and hence give a one-sided picture. In these sources criminals figure mainly as a hostile and dangerous element, rather than as, say, themselves victims of rapid and violent social change. A former NKVD official has observed of Solzhenitsyn's writings that they give 'the impression that the prisoners of the Gulag were mainly political prisoners. This is not so. The overwhelming majority of prisoners were criminals" (Ellman Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 54, No. 7 (Nov., 2002), pp. 1151-1172).--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's also well documented that in Latvia, percentage-wise, no ethnic group suffered more than Jews in the first mass deportation. None of the victims of mass deportations were "criminals." The decimation of Jewish community leadership: civic, merchant, professional, political, left them ill-prepared to deal with and organize when the Nazi invasion and Holocaust arrived a week later. P ЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Eisenstein not Jewish!
Sergei Eisenstein was not Jewish, he is a person with Jewish heritage including his picture with such Jews as Shalom Aleichem is misleading and inappropriate on an article about soviet Jewry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.132.139 (talk) 07:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Russian mafia
I've done some minor copy-edits today after additions by User:67.10.43.83. I decided to remove the following phrase: Russian Jews are also present in the Russian mafia, although their numbers in the organization are difficult to come by. - Jews are not angels, so isn't it expected? Unless we have some numbers, this seems meaningless. ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Abramovich and Berezovsky, say, are Jews. Something like 75% of post-Soviet oligarchs are Jews. Since oligarchy roughly equals to mafia... A coincidence? 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Biasedness
The section about today's Russia presents only rare antistimetic cases without showing the whole picture and ignoring pro-semitic cases. For example, most antisemitic books are actually banned under anti-hatred penal code. For example, the article says that Mein Kampf was translated into Russian in 2002, but doesn't say that it was actually banned exactly the same year (July 25, 2002). Not to mentation that all "nazi groups" are very marginal and hardly anyone sane takes them seriously.

I understand that American Jews that edit this article "butthurt" about Russia, but it doesn't mean you necessary have to distort the reality. 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

about birth certificate
On the photo of Soviet birth certificate («Свидетельство о рождении») written not ethnicity of a child but ethnisity of his father («еврей») and of his mother («еврейка»). Also I just look in my internal passport and see no ethnisity. From RussiaMysterybeing (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Numbers of those killed during the Holocaust
Of the 3 million left in occupied areas, the vast majority is thought to have perished in German concentration camps. The Holocaust
 * Holocaust in Russia and The Holocaust

Over two million Soviet Jews are believed to have died during the Holocaust, second only to the number of Polish Jews to have fallen victims to Hitler. --

You have posted first that the 'vast majority is thought' to have died; then in the next section it says 'over two million are believed.." this is pretty vague language. Between two million and three million means one million people ... Shouldn't this be clarified? Valleyspring (talk) 07:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

"By the end of 1942, 1.4 million Jews had been killed by the Einsatzgruppen that followed the German army eastward; by the end of the war, nearly two million had been murdered in Russia and Eastern Europe. Of the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust, about one-third fell in the territories of the USSR.

"[The Complete Black Book of Russian Jewry] can claim to be the most complete of all: it contains the full "official" text as well as all the materials that Soviet censorship excised in the main accounts of local collaboration. It is a translation of the Russian text published in Vilnius in 1993 (although without the photo-documentation of that edition). In this edition, materials that were removed by the censor are included in brackets." source: amazon.com, Black Book of Soviet Jewry.Valleyspring (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Enlarged Jewish population
We do not have a definition of what "enlarged Jewish population" means.Patapsco913 (talk) 13:00, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * . 176.26.247.147 (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Work on the collage
I did some work on the collage. I added Anton Rubinstein (it doesnt matter his family converted, many did it because there was no other choice and ethnically he's still a Jew) and replaced Kasparov with Botvinnik (Kasparov is half ethnically Jewish but we don't know what he thinks of his identity). Also, It had 3 rows of 3 people and one row of 2 people, instead I made it 3 rows of 4 people and I think it looks better now. That's what we have now:

Sholom Aleichem • Isaac Levitan • Leon Bakst • Sergey Brin Golda Meir • Marc Chagall • Osip Mandelstam • Mikhail Botvinnik Abraham Goldfaden • Lev Landau • Isaac Asimov • Anton Rubinstein

Though the majority of American Jews have ancestors in the Russian Empire, I sticked to those who were actually born in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union.

I read the discussion on top and it was suggested to add Trotsky and few more people. I don't fine it a bad idea, but wouldn't some people find it controversial? And if we do add it, how? Should we add a new row of 4 and add 4 new people or just add one person to each of the existing rows so we will have 3 rows of 5 people? Waiting for comments! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 10:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed some of the images so they would be close to the same size! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This page has a really nice selection. I suggested one on British Jews which looks like it!!! 176.27.7.64 (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I did a small change in that brilliant selection. I added Maya Plisetskaya to increase female representation, instead of Leon Bakst, because there are enough painters. 90.216.193.145 (talk) 12:19, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move (2014)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:28, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

History of the Jews in Russia → Russian Jews – This article is mainly about a sub-group of an ethnic group [being Ashkenazi Jews] and also for being of interest to Wikiproject ethnic groups. I'm aware that most of the article discusses history, but there are articles of other sub-ethnic groups that mostly discuss that as well. An example would be Chinese Indonesians which is a great article. If by some reason the article isn't renamed, then the ethnic group infobox's information [not the infobox itself] should be moved towards the bottom of the article in a section called Present Demographics below historical demographics. Khazar (talk) 01:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Unsure, leaning support. I'd love to see some expert opinions. Red Slash 18:39, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The title "Russian Jews" is a terrible title. What is a Russian Jew? It's not clear Who is a Jew?. To make it more confusing, there is a historical debate about who is considered to be Russian. The debate of Россияни vs Русские. The citizens of the Russian Federation or an ethnic group of Russians who live anywhere in the world? The existing title History of the Jews in Russia clearly explains what the article is about. USchick (talk) 17:47, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
 * A terrible title? Based on what grounds? Your Opinions? Russian Jews are a sub-ethnic group of Ashkenazi Jews just as the Volga Germans are of the Germans or the [Han] Chinese Indonesians are of Han Chinese. There is hardly any confusion with who is a Russian and who is not. Russians are an East Slavic ethnic group who are related to Ukrainians and Belorussians and aren't multiracial. A Russian Jew is simply an Ashkenazi Jew born or has lived in Russia for more than a generation, it's not that difficult to understand. There were also very few conversions to Judaism so Russian Jews are not only culturally distinct, but also ethnically distinct. Khazar (talk) 00:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you read what I said? If it's not clear Who is a Jew? then what is a "Russian Jew?" USchick (talk) 00:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant. Jews are a race, an ethnic group, and a people who practice Judaism. In this case, it's an ethnic group at hand. Notice Wikiprojects Ethnic Groups is interested in this article and it's mid importance. Khazar (talk) 01:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Extremely relevant. Some Jews are an ethnic group. Which ones? There is no "Jewish race" and to claim such is ridiculous. Your simplification of the subject matter is not helping at all. Labeling people as "Russian Jews" is against policy Neutral, OR, and probably several others. USchick (talk) 02:02, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Russians are not multiracial? Really? Afro-Russian. USchick (talk) 02:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Ethnic Russians are not multiracial. Afro-Russians are citizens of the Russian federation, nothing more. There is a Jewish race. Countless genetic studies prove that all Oriental, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi Jews have substantial Israelite ancestry. You'll also have to be clear about how I violated OR and POV considering that I didn't invent nor popularize the term "Russian Jew" and it has been used countless times to describe the ethnicities of Ashkenazi Jews born in Russia or who have had parents/grandparents born in Russia. Khazar (talk) 05:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Where is Russia? Is Crimea in Russia? What about Ashkenazi Jews in Crimea? Are they Russian? If Putin decides to annex all of Ukraine, will the Jews who live there become Russian? Why or why not? USchick (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know if Crimea is Russian land or not. In fact nobody does at the moment because there are countries that won't recognize the referendum. Khazar (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Since "Russia" can't be defined, and "Jews" can't be defined, "Russian Jews" is a terrible title. If Wikiprojects Ethnic Groups is interested in this article, why is it necessary to change the name? Perhaps you can start a new discussion and outline their concerns. USchick (talk) 22:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Russia and Jews can be defined. All you did was ask a hypothetical question which doesn't have a large impact on the subject at hand considering Jews are 0.2% of Crimeas's population. Khazar (talk) 23:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The question is not hypothetical. In Crimea, it's 40,000 people. Is that insignificant to you? Countries change their borders ALL the time, you can't go by that. In any case, you don't have the support to change the title. USchick (talk) 00:56, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

This topic needs to be listed in the Jewish and Russian history sections for additional comments before a move can take place. Can someone list it please? Thanks. USchick (talk) 02:11, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose ok Mr. Al Khazar. First of all yes most Jews in Russia are Ashkenazi. However according to our Mizrahi Jews article 200 Jews in Russia are Mizrahi. Not to mention I found this source http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Sephardim which also states there are a few Sephardim in Russia. Now who is a Jew is extremely hard to find. Jews come from many ethnic groups (mostly Ashkenazi or Sephardim but there are some from other ethnic groups), nationalities, political beliefs and most importantly religions. Jewish converts both in and out of Judaism as well as intermarriage impact this question. Also Jews can't even seem to agree. For example, Orthodox Jews only regard one as Jewish if there mother is Jewish. Karaites only regard one as Jewish if your father is Jewish. There is also a question of whether these Jews in defining the heritage are defining exclusively the right to practice the religion (correctly) or whether they are also denying them access to the heritage and culture. So guess what Jews can be of many ethnicities, nationalities, political identities and religious beliefs (including non-Jewish ones). I think we should focus on Jews IN Russia and not Russian (huh, ethnic or national) and Jews (huh ethnic, national, religious (and according to which branch)).-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 03:10, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the inquiry. But there are important points you've missed. 200 Mizhrahi Jews is not a substantial amount and referring to those numbers only strengthens the disambiguouation of the term. I'd also like to take note that your own link doesn't even support your claim because it refers to the Balkans and the Ottoman empire as Eastern Europe; not Russia. Another important note is that those who did venture to "Eastern Europe" were merchants and not permenant residents, at least according to that link you provided. Furthermore, the term Russian Jew is exclusively used to describe those of Ashkenazi descent here on wikipedia. The other Jews are known as Mountain Jews and aren't specific to a certain country. Karaites are from Crimea so I'm not sure how that will affect the definition of who is a Russian Jew and who isn't. I also want to ask why the Jewish community's definitions of "Jew" is that important when genetics have shown that Ashkenazi Jews, including Ashkenazi Russians, are genetically homogenous and differ from the host population? Khazar (talk) 05:59, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * First of all, I don't know much about you. Your profile is very vague but what I can tell you is that you are definitely confusing two very important things. The Crimean Karaites who are a small ethnic group which btw now mostly practices Chrisitianity and Karaite Judaism which is what the Crimean Karaites used to practice and what is still considered a small but significant branch of Judaism. Karaites reject the authority of the oral law and ONLY recognize Patrialineal descent. Please see http://www.karaite-korner.org/. If you do not know about the basic branches of the Jewish community you should probably not be doing editing to Jewish articles. This article is clearly about the history of Jews in the Russian Federation AND NOT about Russian Jews (which I know from personal experience are not always Ashkenazi (especially not always pure Ashkenazi) and are not always Rabbinic (yeah you probably want to look up what that means as it won't make sense if you don't know about Karaite Judaism.)) You can make great contributions to Wikipedia I have no doubt. You are intelligent and above all passioned on your side of the argument but you need to do more research and understand especially Karaite Judaism and how they have drastically changed what it means to be a Jew. I wish you luck!-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 06:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose, is this for real? First that user, 'Khazar', advances the theory that Ashkenazi Jews (Russian Jews included, of course) have no history but simply emerged as descendants of Khazar converts, and now he proposes omitting the word "history" from this article's title. Not going to happen. If you look at the Template:Jews and Judaism in Europe, or at articles Jews in any other given country for that matter, you'll see that they are all written as "History of the Jews in ___". If anything, this article's title should be changed to "History of the Jews and Judaism in Russia", with more information added. Shalom11111 (talk) 08:02, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes this is for "real". I have never nor will I ever advocate the Khazar theory of Ashkenazi ancestry. I've never mentioned a link between the two groups and I've never even mentioned both in the same post so I'd like to know why you would accuse me of being an advocate. I've already mentioned that Ashkenazi Jews [including Russian Jews] are primarily middle Eastern in origin [according to genetic studies] which presents a strong contradiction to your paranoid accusation. I wanted the article renamed because it seems to be more about a sub-ethnic group rather than their history. Khazar (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm also trying to assume good faith but that username Al Khazar could definitely suggest an alterior motive. The whole Khazar theory was originally written in an antisemitic book called The Thirteenth Tribe which might I add is also proven to be overexaggerated by geneticists. Yes the Khazars did affect the genetics of Ashkenazi Jews but these two sources state that that affects only about 12% of Ashkenazi Jews today. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n3/full/5201319a.html http://news.sciencemag.org/europe/2010/06/tracing-roots-jewishness I really think this should be brought up to the Administrator's Noticeboard but don't quite know how to phrase it properly to be put on there.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 09:00, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't be so prejudiced to assume such a thing from me. My name is by no means antisemitic and I've also mentioned that Ashkenazi Jews have substantial Israelite ancestry [something we can both agree on] and I've never made a connection with them and Khazars. Do you want to know why I chose this username? Because I'm fascinated with Turkic peoples and their history and there isn't any evidence present to contradict me. Interesting that you say you're assuming good faith but paradoxically, you want to report me for antisemetic motives. That's not being WP:CIVIL Khazar (talk) 22:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Poster discussion
The caption claims that the pose has a "stereotype Jewish appearance." Can someone please clarify? The star on the chain is a 5 pointed star, what makes this pose a Jewish stereotype? And is there a source to back up this claim? USchick (talk) 17:33, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The star is suppose to be the star of David, even though it's five pointed as you said. But then again, he only has four toes. So do want an explanation for why he's missing a toe? The description should be changed to: "White movement propaganda poster from the Russian Civil War era (1919), depicting a caricature of Leon Trotsky as a red devil with Chinese soldiers below, wearing braids and blue and gold uniforms."

Like you said, there's no visible Jewish stereotype here; just a caricature. Khazar (talk) 00:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. USchick (talk) 02:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, they "highlighted" his "Jewish looks" very obviously, and as an artist, I do see the conscious decision to make a dig against the Jews in the poster. When someone tells a story (talk) 09:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Is there a reliable source to support this assessment? USchick (talk) 15:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Here are some sources: Niall Ferguson: The War of the World: History's Age of Hatred, Fig.11, Constance Harris: The Way Jews Lived: Five Hundred Years of Printed Words and Images, p. 376. --Off-shell (talk) 20:25, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Material from deleted article Jews and Communism
Just a heads-up that IP 184.101.78.153 is trying to add into History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia some of the material deleted as part of Jews and Communism (diff).

See also


 * Articles for deletion/Jews and Communism (2nd nomination)
 * Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Jews_and_Communism_(2nd_nomination)

et al

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 11:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The new collage
I made a new and improved collage for the article. The main reason was because of my boldness to do so. If you don't like the collage, feel free to alter the size, change the personnel, and/or purge. But if you do so, please state your reasons here and I'll be happy to co-operate. Khazar (talk) 22:41, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your effort. Is there a shortage of actual Russian people who are Jewish? It's not clear why Americans of Russian descent are included. Also not clear why non Jewish people of Jewish lineage, generations back are included (like Lenin). It would be more accurate and respectful to include people who are actually Russian and Jewish (as opposed to their family members who used to be Russian or Jewish). I propose that the list should include: Mila Kunis, a Russian oligarch, a historical figure like Baal Shem Tov, a Russian politician (who is not an oligarch) Category:Jewish Russian politicians, a scientist Russian Jewish Scientists, an artist/entertainer, an athlete, a human rights activist like Andrei Sakharov (or maybe there's a better one), and an Orthodox Jew Category:Russian Orthodox Jews. USchick (talk) 15:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the inquiry. The reason I added Americans was because many are second and third generation immigrants. However, since this is about the history of Russian Jews, then the collage should be restricted to those born in Russia. If you feel the need to add anything, be sure to replace rather than add because >15 people is too many when using collage frames this size. Khazar (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Totally agree that people who were not born in Russia/Russian empire should not be included! Mila Kunis is not from Russia but from Ukraine. If she would be born in the Russian Empire I would support it, but she wasn't, it was the Ukrainian SSR. Baal Shem Tov would be a great addition, but the problem is we don't have an original portrait of him (the one used is more likely to be of someone from England). Andrei Sakharov is not Jewish. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:52, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Our choices don't oppose one another. Just you know, I didn't actually add all those people to the article. The odd ones were added by another user and I recommend that you at least readopt the style of collage. See Ashkenazi Jews to get an idea of what it's like. Khazar (talk) 03:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

The inclusion in the collage of random American people is beyond absurd. This article is about Russian Jews (not American people), and should only include actual members of the Russian Jewish community (even Mila Kunis, for example, is of Ukrainian background). Avaya1 (talk) 17:49, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ida Rubinstein is just as Ukrainian as Mila Kunis. The introduction to this article talks about the Russian Empire, not the Russian Federation. USchick (talk) 18:16, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ida Rubinstein was born in the Russian Empire, Mila Kunis was born in the Ukrainian SSR, that is the difference. The Russian Empire was Russia, but the Ukrainian SSR wasn't. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:54, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Mila Kunis is from Chernivtsi, which is today culturally Ukraine (and historicaly Romania). We already used her in the infobox for the History of the Jews in Ukraine. Ida Rubinstein was from Saint Petersburg or Kharkov, and certainly grew up in Saint Petersburg and was based in the city. Avaya1 (talk) 18:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Removing Isaac Asimov is a bit uncalled for considering that he was born in Russia, just like Sergei Brin. The latter also happens to remain in the collage. They should both be included in the collage. Khazar (talk) 18:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Asimov left when he was 3 years old, so he is surely not a strong reflection of the subject of the article, which is the History of the Jews in Russia. He is suitable in the article - the History of the Jews in America. He was American through and through. Also to be a 'Russian Jew' in a cultural sense, at a minimum requires knowledge of the Russian-language. Avaya1 (talk) 18:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Whatever. Could you change the photo for Grigori Perelman? The landscape image is quite the eyesore. Khazar (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Even though I agree this article should not have American-born people in the collage, I do think people who were born in Russia belong here, regardless of the age they moved to America, because they are still Russian Jews in a way, Russian born anyway. 2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:48, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I reverted it to the old collage. Sorry, but you can't do it without discussion first. Action first, talk later is not how it works. The main reason for my boldness in reverting it back to the collage that was present here for ages is: The old collage was tidy, not too big, representing the Jews of the Russia well. The old collage simply looks great esthetically and in terms of selection, and there is a reason no one tried to delete it or revert it. You got rid of it, without giving any reason as to why you did it.

Your collage is with pictures of different sizes, some people added without any logical explanation (why do we need Kantarovich if we already have Landau to represent the exact sciences?), and over-blown. The new collage... did you know that Vladimir Vysotsky saw himself as a Russian Orthodox Christian? Yes, he had a Jewish father, but we have no evidence he ever referred to himself as a Jew. Same story about Mikhail Fradkov. Does Russia actually lack people who actually see themselves as Jews, and don't just have someone Jewish in the family? And same thing Gary Kasparov. Is there a problem in finding a Jewish chess champion that we need someone who sees himself as a Christian and never referred to himself as a Jew (oh yes, we already have one, Botvinnik)?

And for real, you actually added Lucy Dubinchik... who even heard of her outside Israel?? She doesn't even have an English Wikipedia article. In fact, even most Israelis have no idea of who she is.

And that is all before even mentioning the people you deleted! You actually deleted Abraham Goldfaden, the "father" of modern Yiddish theater, Yiddish which is the base of Ashkenazi culture. You deleted Osip Mandelstam, one of the greatest Russian poets. You got rid of Golda Meir, an Israel prime minister and only the third woman in the world to do so. Most irritating, you deleted Sholem Aleichem, the greatest Yiddish author ever. That is not boldness, that just doesn't make any sense. What is the point of deleting those truly notable people for Lucy?

I don't see a point in creating a messy new collage full of people with Jewish origin only on their fathers side or people without articles on English Wikipedia. If you want to suggest any changed you are more than welcome, but each and every one of them should be brought up first on the talk page and discussed. Sometimes I feel like people make collages just for the sake of saying they made one or to feel they gave something to the article. If it's not broken, don't fix it. If you want to improve something, discuss first. boldness is useful in case of a situation where the changes are "obvious" or where the article is "asking for it", not in a case where something looks nice and is a sensitive topic (collages were always a controversial thing on Wikipedia).2.124.27.175 (talk) 00:12, 15 July 2014 (UTC)