Talk:History of the chair

Referencing
This article needs it badly. --123.243.160.204 (talk) 10:21, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

roman chairs
Chairs

there was probably two types of chairs used in lullingstone. One had a rounded back which was made out of basket work. We found carvings on tombstones which show this sort of chair was normally occupied by a women. The other type of chair had a straight back but was made out of wood.

There's a contradiction between this article and the Chair of Saint Peter article. If there's not a reference we should probably remove it. Aharriso (talk) 05:37, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Explosm
This page was used in an explosm comic. Just thought i'd pass that along http://www.explosm.net/comics/1128/ Kirby17 (talk) 17:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Roman chairs
I quote from this article: "The characteristic Roman chairs were of marble".

How can a characteristic chair be made of marble? Surely, characteristic chairs were made of wood (some, although more rarely, were of metal). It is the totally uncharacteristic ceremonial chairs of officeholders or bulit-in chairs for officials found in the public venues that might have been made of marble. --B. Jankuloski (talk) 21:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Most of this article, including the quote on Roman chairs of marble, is from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. See: http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tim_Starling/ScanSet_TIFF_demo&vol=05&page=EB5A837  Samw (talk) 17:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * B. Jankuloski is perfectly correct. The type of chair for ordinary use most commonly depicted in Roman art is of basketwork. Others were of solid wood or metal.


 * Sadly, the 1911 EB text is a product of the limited knowledge of its day and contains a great many errors. I am a furniture historian and took the liberty of correcting the nonsense that "The majority of the chairs of all countries until the middle of the 17th century were of oak without upholstery" (they were made from many timbers; oak just survives better) but there are many other errors in the EB text and it would need a complete rewrite of the whole article to bring it anywhere near up to modern standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.151.147 (talk) 21:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Off-wiki attack
There is an organized, off -wiki attack by white supremacists to vandalize this article with neonazi talking points. Please be advised. ExpertPrime (talk) 22:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * (redacted)
 * It seems like they are very uncomfortable with the fact that chairs were invented by Africans. ... disco spinster   talk  16:38, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Here's a quote from the Wiki page to enrich your underdeveloped black supremacist prefrontal cortex "In Sub-Saharan Africa, chairs were not in use before introduction by Europeans." Yyg850c (talk) 21:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Chairs were invented in Ancient Egypt, by Africans. ... disco spinster   talk  22:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please refer to the "Sub-Saharan Africa" phrase, and pay close attention to the region where Egypt is located on the continent. That should clear it up for you. 97.66.209.126 (talk) 22:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I didn't even say anything about Sub-Saharan Africa. ... disco spinster   talk  22:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * And that's precisely the problem. You responded to a comment that specified the Sub-Saharan African region, and then inserted your irrelevant comment regarding the region of Egypt, which is not Sub-Saharan. You're confusing two regions of the continent that have completely different histories, demographics, cultures, and geographies. Hence my attempt to help you clarify that. 97.66.209.126 (talk) 23:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The comment I responded to also did not mention Sub-Saharan Africa. ... disco spinster   talk  23:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You're kidding, right? It's literally a few comments above, by user Yyg850c. It literally contains the phrase "Sub-Saharan Africa" and then you responded to it, which was the comment I then responded to, to help correct your confusion. So yes, the comment you responded to very literally mentioned "Sub-Saharan Africa" explicitly. But honestly, that's beside the point. The more important point, is that you understand the vast differences between Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa. 97.66.209.126 (talk) 00:05, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * In Wikipedia talk pages, like many other discussion boards, responses are indicated by indentation. If you look at my initial response you will see that I was responding to ExpertPrime above. ... disco spinster   talk  00:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Did I say it was your initial response? No. Did you respond to a comment by Yyg850c? Yes. Did I point out the response order I was addressing? Yes. Did Yyg850c mention Sub-Saharan Africa? Yes. Did you respond to Yyg850c's comment? Yes. I then responded to your response and this is the resulting conversation. If you can't follow the logical path of a discussion, then your reading comprehension needs work. I shouldn't have to hold your hand and guide you like this. But as I said before ... "honestly, that's beside the point. The more important point, is that you understand the vast differences between Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa." 97.66.209.126 (talk) 00:21, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yyg850c made a non-sequitur comment and I was trying to get the conversation back on track. I'm sorry if that caused confusion. I'll not respond anymore since it seems to put you more and more out to sea. ... disco spinster   talk  00:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Trying to "get the conversation back on track" by confusing Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa? lol, sure, makes perfect sense. In case you didn't notice, the discussion is in the context of Sub-Saharan Africa, not Egypt. You're the one who replied with a non-sequitur by bringing Egypt into a discussion about Sub-Saharan Africa in your reply to Yyg850c's comment which clearly mentioned Sub-Saharan Africa in keeping with the context. I get it though ... in your eyes, you can't possibly be wrong, facts be damned. Oh well...
 * "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."-– Søren Kierkegaard 97.66.209.126 (talk) 01:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You were wrong from the beginning, just let it go. 2601:282:1E80:6C70:E40F:EC41:BA79:14F3 (talk) 02:18, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being patient 97.66.209.126 - it's pretty clear discospinster is operating from a place of disingenuity. 162.222.63.62 (talk) 11:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sub Saharan historian here. They didn’t have chairs. 2600:1003:B136:ECD4:ADE5:11D0:8245:249E (talk) 12:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * we have paintings of mansa musa in the Catalan Atlas and negus of abyssinia sitting in a chair by 1314 manuscript illustration Rashid. also Swahili Coast with the grandee’s chair. You are no historian Developed it entirely (talk) 13:19, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sub Saharan here. We don’t even have chairs now. 100.15.65.231 (talk) 13:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * “The upright form of the kiti cha enzichair bears strong resemblance to sixteenth- and seventeenth-century chairs imported from Portugal and Spain, as well as to Portuguese- and Spanish-influenced examples made in India.” 2600:1003:B136:ECD4:ADE5:11D0:8245:249E (talk) 14:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This doesn't change the fact that we have paintings of mansa musa in the Catalan Atlas and negus of abyssinia sitting in a chair by 1314 manuscript illustration Rashid. so yeah Developed it entirely (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.artic.edu/artworks/183077/chair-kiti-cha-enzi
 * Do you even bother reading the history of your own claims? 2600:1003:B136:ECD4:ADE5:11D0:8245:249E (talk) 14:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also those were Muslims who engaged in trade (Northern Horn) 2600:1003:B136:ECD4:ADE5:11D0:8245:249E (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * “controlling a large territorial state and access to vast trade routes linking the Roman Empire to the Middle East and India” 2600:1003:B136:ECD4:ADE5:11D0:8245:249E (talk) 14:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * So your wrong and now your moving the goal post? Mali had chairs mansa musa is sitting in one we are done here and Mali isn't in the horn Developed it entirely (talk) 14:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sub Saharan African here not a chair I'm afraid 100.15.65.231 (talk) 17:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We didn't have chairs because we were too busy being rich like Mansa Musa. 100.15.65.231 (talk) 17:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Your trolling got removed btw. Developed it entirely (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Though not as uncomfortable as Africans were on their hard stools with no back. Thank God for the White man. 74.97.10.39 (talk) 22:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * (redacted)
 * That's an entirely unsubstantiated and fictional claim. I haven't seen one single "talking point" related to National Socialists and the history of the chair. I'm lost how such a nonsensical, incorrect assertion was formulated? Was this statement from another conversation that was accidentally posted here? There's no need to pretend Africans invented chairs, or pretend that Europeans didn't introduce the modern concept of chair design (true chairs as opposed to rudimentary proto-chairs), nor to go full Chicken Little and pretend the imaginary bogeymen "neonazis" are attacking the page. This just makes Wikipedia look like it's being run by a bunch of ignorant, hyperbolic, unstable & hormonal teens. Let's do better. 97.66.209.126 (talk) 22:39, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No we don't need to pretend anything, we need to rely on sources, none of which in the article supports the claim that "In Sub-Saharan Africa, chairs were not in use before introduction by Europeans." ... disco spinster   talk  22:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * (redacted)
 * I don't know why this issue is so contentious. It's not racist to point out that some cultures developed certain technologies and others didn't. The Aztecs, Incans, and Mayans didn't develop wheeled carts. Other cultures didn't start domesticating horses until they saw the people of the Eurasian Steppes doing it. The Chinese were the ones to invent black powder. Africans didn't use seats with backs until the Portuguese introduced chairs to them. NecroFamiliar (talk) 04:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * (redacted)
 * 😂 70.59.118.40 (talk) 20:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * These people are raids fron 4chans /pol/ broad here is proof
 * https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/462833613/#462834615 Developed it entirely (talk) 10:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Could you please cite the source on your claim that there is an organized, off-wiki attack? 2601:985:4A02:E820:985C:F4B2:2CFA:3C57 (talk) 11:58, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * +1 46.204.100.85 (talk) 18:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Mansa musa sitting in a chair in the Catalan Atlas.
 * https://bigthink.com/the-past/mansa-musa-mali-king-atlantic/ Developed it entirely (talk) 08:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * (redacted)

Cited history of the chair
Tables, chairs, and modern-style furniture we know today was invented by the Egyptians in the BC era and eventually made its way to Europe via North African culture’s interactions with Rome: https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/3948

The modern-style furniture referenced above was introduced to sub-Saharan Africans by the Portuguese in the 15th century. Prior to this, for formal seating, Sub-Saharan Africans used tree stumps that were trimmed into “round blocks of wood” called “stools” that were then decorated with tribal ornaments: https://mukangoafrica.co.za/what-is-the-history-of-african-furniture/

Sub-Saharan Africans did not have the chair until Europeans introduced it to them. 2600:6C5E:14F0:9BC0:1472:B13B:7AE8:83E8 (talk) 12:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The source you have provided does not say that "Sub-Saharan Africans did not have the chair until Europeans introduced it to them". It says that certain design elements were brought by Europeans in the fifteenth century, such as the elbow chair and the sedan chair. ... disco spinster   talk  16:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * In the 6th century Cosmas Indicopleustes described the Monumentum Adulitanum, a 3rd century inscription on a stone throne in the aksumite city of Adulis, in modern day Eritrea. https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cosmas_02_book2.htm
 * "On the coast of Ethiopia, two miles off from the shore, is a town called Adulê, which forms the port of the Axômites ... Here is to be seen a marble chair, just as you enter the town on the western side by the road which leads to Axômis. ... It is made of costly white marble ... Its base is quadrangular, and it rests at the four corners on four slender and elegant pillars, with one in the middle of greater girth and grooved in spiral form. The pillars support the seat of the chair as well as its back against which one leans, and there are also sides to right and left. The whole chair with its base, five pillars, seat and back and sides to right and left, has been sculptured from a single block into this form. It measures about two cubits and a half, and is in shape like the chair we call the Bishop's throne."- Cosmas Indicopleustes, Christian Topography Book 2
 * 7th century Aksumite coins depict king Armah seated in a high back, legged chair.
 * "Late Aksumite copper coins (Fig. 75) depict a chair of jointed-probably wooden but possibly ivory-construction."-pg 172 Foundations of an African Civilisation: Aksum and the Northern Horn, 1000 BC - AD 1300 by D. W Phillipson
 * Numerous surviving stone throne bases, and their corresponding sides and backs, can be found in and around the Mary of Zion cathedral in Aksum, in modern day Ethiopia, with some dating to at least the 4th century.
 * "The massive stone 'throne-bases' are a highly characteristic form of Aksumite monument ... In basic form, each throne-base comprises a massive neatly dressed slab, between 1.8 and 2.4 m square and about 0.35 m thick; in its centre, either integral or separate, is a smaller block forming the seat (Fig. 44). At the back and sides of this block are deep slots into which vertical slabs of stone appear to have been inserted. There are good reasons to believe that some of the inscribed slabs discussed in Chapter 6 had originally been fitted into these slots, each slab thus forming a side or a back of a throne. Throne-bases of the Cathedral group retain monolithic pillars at each corner, or the sockets in which such pillars must have stood; it seems safe to assume that these pillars originally supported a canopy ... Tradition states that the thrones in the Cathedral group were used on occasion by kings, bishops or judges: in other words, that living people sat on them ... Several of the throne-bases in both groups show depressions in front of the raised seat that all writers seem agreed on interpreting as settings for foot-stools."-pg 132-134 Foundations of an African Civilisation: Aksum and the Northern Horn, 1000 BC - AD 1300 by D. W Phillipson
 * Numerous fragment of an ivory chair were excavated from the Tomb of the Brick Arches in Aksum and date from the 4th century. https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/documents/2486/111p023.pdf
 * "Few close stylistic parallels have been recognised for the fourth-century carved ivory from the Tomb of the Brick Arches. The elaborate chair or throne(Fig. 63) contrasts both in style and in manufacture with its counterparts else-where. The structural framework itself was of ivory, and its back comprised two large panels carved with representations of birds and animals intertwined with vines."-pg 172 Foundations of an African Civilisation: Aksum and the Northern Horn, 1000 BC - AD 1300 by D. W Phillipson
 * Sub-Saharan Africans did in fact have the chair before European contact in the 15th century. The fact that one of the most prominent civilization during antiquity (i.e. Ethiopia) has gone completely ignored during this discussion is honestly baffling, but I hope this can finally put the issue to rest. 2600:1700:DF1:5A40:70FD:AE5E:75B2:EB1B (talk) 04:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The first Europeans to reach the East African coast were the Portuguese, and they already noted chairs were present in Malindi and constructed with local materials;

“In 1498, Vasco de Gama paid visits to Mombasa and Malindi, describing Malindi as a noble city where the king's palace was adorned with lavish carpets, and furnished with chairs plated with gold and ivory.” - Tales of French Corsairs and Revolution Book 1 By Serge Lionnet · (1999) page 233

--GoldenDragonHorn (talk) 21:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)


 * It would be worth noting that the original Malindi kingdom of African Bantu/Swahili origin was destroyed around 1,000 CE. The Malindi that de Gama arrived at was the establishment created in the 13th century CE by the Arab Kilwa Sultanate, and the architecture--and furniture, including the chairs--was of Arabic influence, which itself already had influence from European design by then. At that time, de Gama admired the Sultan's palace and furnishings, but noted the Bantu/Swahili people served as the labor force and coastal merchants/traders of the city. So the chairs noted by the Portuguese upon their arrival do not support a Sub-Saharn African chair origin or design, but rather Arabic. Refer to Esmond Martin's work on Malindi. 97.66.209.126 (talk) 23:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have any other sources? Tales of French Corsairs and Revolution is a historical fiction.NecroFamiliar (talk) 04:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, here are two;

“At the East African city-state of Malindi, da Gama was greeted by a king seated on a bronze chair and wearing an ornate robe trimmed in green satin” - World History: Comprehensive Volume - Page 386

And;

“Such paraphernalia are known to have been fairly common in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, but their existence at some locations already in the late Middle Ages appears equally certain. Ibn Battuta found a cloak, a palanquin, sandals, a turban, drums, and the ubiquitous siwa at Mogadishu in 1331, while two Portuguese witnesses report seeing a chair, a canopy, a turban, and two siwas at Malindi in the late fifteenth and early seventeenth centuries.” - Horn and Crescent Cultural Change and Traditional Islam on the East African Coast, 800-1900 By Randall L. Pouwels, Randall Lee Pouwels · 2002 - Page 28

Malindi is in sub-Saharan Africa, and chairs were noted to be already pre-existing in that locale before any European presence, therefore the claim that ‘chairs were absent in sub-Saharan Africa before the Europeans’ is academically incorrect. Cheers. --GoldenDragonHorn (talk) 02:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you. NecroFamiliar (talk) 05:22, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking them over, the latter doesn't contradict the earlier claim that the Portuguese introduced chairs, with it supposedly happening in the 15th century, and the two Portuguese witnesses seeing a chair in the LATE 15th and early 17th (did the two Portuguese visit over a century apart, or is this supposed to be 16th?) centuries.
 * For the former, I can't find a copy that I can read without buying, but I found another account of Vasco da Gama's history (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/46440/46440-h/46440-h.htm, if you're curious). He met the king (possibly the king's son) of Mombasa in 1498, so that's a point in your favor. On the other hand, they were Muslims, meaning that they had contact with the Middle-East at some point before 1331 (Ibn Battuta noted that they were Shafi'i Muslims, with well-built mosques), so we can't be sure if they developed the chairs themselves or if they were introduced by the Middle-East. Honestly, there just isn't enough information to say one way or the other. Or if there is, I don't know where to find it. NecroFamiliar (talk) 06:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, wait. 15th century is 1400-1500. My bad. Never mind, that also happened in the late 15th century. I also thought that the link to the Brooklyn Museum was a different link that I had seen earlier, which is why I said that the latter citation didn't contradict it.
 * "Most seats in sub-Saharan Africa are low stools, carved from a single block of wood. Yet, as early as the sixteenth century, Portuguese traders and explorers introduced chairs with backs to southern and eastern Africa. Chokwe artists soon began to produce similar chairs, adding sculptural scenes and Chokwe motifs. This wood chair was carved as an object of status for a chief."
 * https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/2899
 * Though, this would contradict da Gama's records. NecroFamiliar (talk) 06:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's right. The original claim possibly originated from Sarpong's "The sacred stools of the Akan", and then been inflated to include all of sub-Saharan Africa :
 * "Considered concretely, the Ashanti stool is nothing but a wooden seat of artistic design for practical use. Before the introduction of chairs by Europeans, every Ashanti had many of these seats for use in his house. The introduction of chairs has not put an end to the importance of stools. For even yet, by far the greatest majority of the houses have more stools than chairs, and it would not be easy to find a house without a stool"
 * However, this seems quite vague, outdated and not based on anything tangible. I'll try to research more on the subject and add it to the page. Bastobasto (talk) 17:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Sumerians
The Standard of Ur cuts the deal. Chairs are so well established there you needn't look up Egypt to make the case for the most ancient one. Also, establishing Egypt as the typical source of Mediterranean culture is a classic Western bias that originated in the late 18th Century. Look up Orientalism by Edward Said, which is the benchmark book. I am tired of people reiterating clichés that started circulating with the French and British colonial rule over Egypt. Egypt was a great civilization but it is not the source of everything known to man. 78.210.157.88 (talk) 00:23, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This would be OR if used in an article, but I just looked at some pictures of the Standard of Ur, and I must say, I didn't see any chairs. There were some chariots, but no chair-iots. Are there chairs depicted on a different face of it or something? Joe  (talk) 04:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * There literally were chairs.
 * What is this guy doing if not sitting on a chair?
 * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/Ur_lyre.jpg/1024px-Ur_lyre.jpg 107.2.4.37 (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Is that what that's supposed to be? To me, it looks like his legs are walking away from him, but if scholars think that particular pose is meant to represent 'sitting on chair,' far be it from me to say otherwise. Feel free to add something about it if you've got some RS. Joe  (talk) 01:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Improvement: chair safety
Chair Safety is a recognized safety topic underneath American OSHA CFR-29 standards. It is required training in many industries, such as industrial drum filling. There should be an additional section concerning this, but I don't want to just link JJKeller articles and similar about it as that would constitute Original Research. There aren't many other sources on this topic, unfortunately. Please advise. 2001:5A8:657:9:0:0:2:4F0B (talk) 03:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably a better topic for the Chair page, or the Safety page, or maybe even its own page, rather than this one. If you've got any questions about whether something constitutes a reliable source or not, please post a reference and I'll share my thoughts. It truly is a wonderful thing to see so many bright and eager new editors taking a deep interest in chairs and chair-related topics. Joe  (talk) 04:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Content removal
It looks like has removed an entire section, including a message instructing editors to leave that section alone, all without consensus. Suspiciously similar to what was previously doing, and for which they received a temporary block and final warning. I will be reverting these edits shortly - if there are any concerns, please discuss in this thread. Dennis Russel III (talk) 13:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hooh...you should at least wait some hours before reverting. The removal was done because of Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1153 as the edits weren't well sourced. Your revert has been reverted. Lectonar (talk) 13:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You should pay more attention to article talk and to the WP/ANI thread regarding why that (poorly sourced) material was removed. Simonm223 (talk) 13:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Furthermore the "message instructing editors to leave that section alone" was highly inaccurate. Simonm223 (talk) 13:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dennis Russel III Why do you keep re-inserting this? Especially the hidden message is grossly inappropriate for Wikipedia. Simonm223 (talk) 14:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dennis Russel III I'm reaching out to the admin who previously blocked ExpertPrime for guidance. However the section I deleted was very weakly sourced and the hidden comment was explicitly contrary to the sources so I'd suggest it might be wise to actually talk about this text rather than us going back and forth in reverts. Simonm223 (talk) 15:03, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Noted. My second revert was made before noticing the responses to this thread, so I wasn't aware of the ANI discussion at the time. Tbh, I'd recommend copying the result of that discussion to this talk page (or at least linking it) as otherwise to me it simply looked like the edit wars from last week were resuming. Dennis Russel III (talk) 16:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Linking it is fine - as above - but the other editors involved probably wouldn't want us straight-up transcluding copy from a different message board here. Simonm223 (talk) 16:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding the removed section, do better sources exist? Because, honestly, the sources weren't stellar in the bit I removed. Simonm223 (talk) 11:30, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The first citation to the new source you added, the 1980 book, fails verification for the claim. Can you please explain why you put this back in? Simonm223 (talk) 16:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * It does not fail verification. From the source:
 * "Although the stool as known in sub-Saharan Africa may have been of African inspiration and development, there has been a major outside influence on one form of seating device. That, no surprisingly, is the European-style chair. As noted above, the Portuguese, Azambuja, introduced the 'elbow chair' to the Gold Coast as early as 1481." Sieber 1980, p. 159.
 * GranCavallo (talk) 17:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This does not contain the claim that chairs did not exist nor even that chairs with backs were introduced by the Portugese. In fact it refers to chairs with arms. Simonm223 (talk) 18:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have update the text in the article to say "chairs with arms". GranCavallo (talk) 18:14, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * While that's more accurate let's explore why Sub-Saharan Africa, in particular, is getting this callout in the lede. It raises a bit of an odd WP:DUE question that a section getting sourced to one author's work from more than 30 years ago, a single article by a second author and that's basically it is getting a full paragraph when nothing from the renaissance onward is mentioned at all. Simonm223 (talk) 18:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Mansa Musa is depicted in a chair by with arms in the 1375 Catalan Atlas and king negus of ehtiopa is also used a throne Developed it entirely (talk) 18:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you please provide an WP:RS for the Mansa Musa depiction? Simonm223 (talk) 18:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Because, unfortunately, the Cresques Project does not describe what he's sitting on and, unfortunately, in Wikipedia, we need a secondary source to say "that's a chair". Simonm223 (talk) 18:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ibn battuta also mentions chairs not stools in mali
 * . A chair is there for the Interpreter and he beats on an instrument which is made of reeds with tiny calabashes below it [a "balophon"] praising the sultan, recalling in his song his expeditions and deeds. The wives and the concubines sing with him... about thirty of his pages... each has a drum tied to him and he beats it. Then ...[come acrobats and jugglers of swords]. Developed it entirely (talk) 19:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ibn Battuta was never in Mali. 109.207.97.215 (talk) 02:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My bad, you are right. 109.207.97.215 (talk) 02:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you're right about WP:DUE, so I've removed the sentence from the lead for now. Really, the whole lead of this article is pretty poor and should be re-written to better summarize its contents. GranCavallo (talk) 18:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I would entirely agree there. Simonm223 (talk) 18:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/mansa-musa-musa-i-mali/
 * https://www.thecollector.com/mansa-musa-mali-empire-ruler/
 * https://blogs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2022/07/african-kings.html
 * These all called what he's sitting on a throne which is a form of chair Developed it entirely (talk) 19:03, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately a throne can imply any ritual seat of rulership including chairs, benches and stools. I'm honestly not trying to be difficult. But we do have to make sure that what we cite is not dependent on WP:OR such as a wikipedian's independent assessment that his seat in that picture constitutes a chair. Simonm223 (talk) 19:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * it's ok your doing your job but what about ibn battuta saying mali had chairs and an interpreter sitting on one
 * A chair is there for the Interpreter and he beats on an instrument which is made of reeds with tiny calabashes below it [a "balophon"] praising the sultan, recalling in his song his expeditions and deeds. The wives and the concubines sing with him... about thirty of his pages... each has a drum tied to him and he beats it. Then ...[come acrobats and jugglers of swords]. Developed it entirely (talk) 19:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Source to the claim I made up top that mali had chairs by ibn battuta.
 * https://orias.berkeley.edu/resources-teachers/travels-ibn-battuta/journey/journey-mali-1350-1351 Developed it entirely (talk) 19:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That looks like a reliable source which we would want to balance with other reliable sources in the section. Simonm223 (talk) 19:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/2899 109.207.97.215 (talk) 01:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Most seats in sub-Saharan Africa are low stools, carved from a single block of wood. Yet, as early as the sixteenth century, Portuguese traders and explorers introduced chairs with backs to southern and eastern Africa. Chokwe artists soon began to produce similar chairs, adding sculptural scenes and Chokwe motifs. This wood chair was carved as an object of status for a chief." 109.207.97.215 (talk) 01:59, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Chair != stools, dont mix in one article two items. History of chairs so write about chairs.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stool_(seat) 109.207.97.215 (talk) 02:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. "Most" != "all".
 * 2. When multiple reliable sources contradict each other we include both to the extent they are due. We don't just decide one source should be excluded and the other treated as truth. Simonm223 (talk) 14:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have another source which contradicts his claim about the Portuguese bringing chairs into southeastern Africa and states them being there When thet first came.
 * The first ever European to explore Malindi (a Bantu city in southeastern Africa )was Vasco da Gama, arriving on 14 April 1498
 * Malindi
 * Vasco da Gama
 * He states
 * The king wore a robe (royal cloak) of damask trimmed with green satin, and a rich touca. He was seated on two cushioned chairs of bronze, beneath a round sunshade of crimson satin attached to a pole. An old man, who attended him as page, carried a short sword in a silver sheath. There were many players on anafils, and two trumpets of ivory, richly carved, and of the size of a man, which were blown from a hole in the side, and made sweet harmony with the anafils.
 * This is his book called
 * https://www.gutenberg.org/files/46440/46440-h/46440-h.htm Developed it entirely (talk) 15:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Sub-Saharan African chairs
The history of chairs in Sub-Saharan Africa is difficult to establish due to the scarce number of written sources and the subtle difference between a chair and a stool (often used interchangeably in many languages). However, it can be assumed that, similar to Europe and the rest of the world, chairs were symbols of wealth and aristocracy, while stools, benches, and even single blocks of wood were predominant in common use. This fact can be confirmed by ethnographic exhibitions and open-air museums worldwide.

The first chairs south of the Sahara may have arrived there as early as ancient times. However, there is a lack of archaeological sources similar to those in Egypt, where wood in tombs under appropriate conditions could survive for thousands of years.

However, it is certain that the arrival of Portuguese merchants and explorers in the 16th century influenced local craftsmanship in Southern Africa, including that of the Chokwe people. Soon after, an incredible fusion of chairs emerged, combining designs introduced by the newcomers with indigenous African motifs. Chairs crafted in this manner (known as 'ngundja') served ceremonial purposes and often functioned as thrones for tribal leaders.[1]

1. https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/2899 109.207.97.215 (talk) 03:37, 18 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Is this meant as a the start of (yet another) discussion? Because it reads like a statement.  -  Sumanuil  .  (talk to me) 07:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't want to start another ideological war. I proposed a straightforward template on what is known about chairs in Sub-Saharan Africa from a historical perspective. If written sources are lacking, the only remaining options are to refer to folklore and local craftsmanship, as well as what inspired them. It's not about whether someone knew about chairs or not, but what we know about them, how they looked, and what new insights they bring to the topic. If someone wants to contribute additional examples (besides ngundja), we might be able to reach a consensus without involving contemporary politics. Please also note that we are talking about the history of chairs, not other types of seating, which I tried to emphasize in the first paragraph.
 * P.S. That was my post earlier. DMD1986 (talk) 08:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ethiopia has had backed and legged chairs since at least the 3rd century. I think including it under the Sub-Saharan African section would be a good addition since it demonstrates Sub-Saharan Africans using forms of seating, which are irrefutable chairs, long before European contact in the 15th century. 2600:1700:DF1:5A40:70FD:AE5E:75B2:EB1B (talk) 04:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2024
In alternative to: In Sub-Saharan Africa, chairs were not in use before introduction by Europeans. add the following to the first paragraph: Prior to European contact, sub-Saharan Africans did not commonly use chairs as we know them today.

Because it's the absolute reality of things. Even MODERN sub saharan people confirm this. The CHAIR is a piece of furniture with definite characteristics, and the "famous" mansa-musa painting that's used as a fallacious counterproof, AT MOST demonstrates that a stool was used. The original statement was incensing and triggering for snowflakes, but it was not inaccurate. TheGreatUnification (talk) 09:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Ibn Battuta called it a chair not a stool a chair!. So your whole statement is wrong
 * A chair is there for the Interpreter and he beats on an instrument which is made of reeds with tiny calabashes below it [a "balophon"] praising the sultan, recalling in his song his expeditions and deeds. The wives and the concubines sing with him... about thirty of his pages... each has a drum tied to him and he beats it. Then ...[come acrobats and jugglers of swords]. Developed it entirely (talk) 10:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * A chair is placed for Dugha, where he sits playing an instrument made from reeds | with tiny calabashes underneath. He sings poems praising the Sultan and recounting his campaigns and his exploits.[1]
 * In summary, chairs within the range of trade across the Sahara must have been known but were not common, as they were not practical tools, which is evident in any open-air museum in Europe. They symbolized status and wealth. However, we have evidence in the form of museum exhibits that Portuguese chairs adorned with African motifs appeared in Southern Africa, where they also symbolized the status and wealth of a tribal chief.[2]
 * 1. The Travels of Ibn Battuta, AD 1325–1354 Volume IV [CHAPTER XXV: The Country of the Blacks], H.A.R Gibb and C.F. Beckingham
 * 2. https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/2899 DMD1986 (talk) 13:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Semi-protection-unlocked.svg Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Anyone can edit the page now, when consensus is reached on this topic. RudolfRed (talk) 01:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The Travels of Ibn Battuta and Vasco de Gama are valid sources
Why were statements made by them removed? If these books are used through other part of Wikipedia? @Drmies Developed it entirely (talk) 14:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi. You're talking about this edit. I said "none of this is properly written (in terms of grammar, formatting, and develoment) or contextualized, and the sources are questionable and/or incorrectly cited". The very first sentence is grammatically incorrect. Ibn Battuta is unlinked, it is unclear (to the reader) who he is or why his statement matters. What is "siwa", and why is it "ubiquitous"? There is no context, and it sounds like editorial commentary. Two sources are given, but as bare URLs without any publication information (not even a translator or publisher is mentioned); the quote is from the first cited page, not the second, and that's confusing. Plus the initial article is missing, rendering this sentence incomplete and awkward (capitalized "Chair" reads like a proper name), and what does the quote matter besides "there was a chair for the interpreter"? This website is for teaching resources (Berkeley ORIAS)--it's not a good source, and where are the quotes even from? On occasion a "Dunn" is cited, but not for that quote, and what is "Dunn" (I know, but it needs an explanation)? Citing this Fordham page, from their Medieval Sourcebooks, is fine, but why would we need two (different) translations of his The Rihla? Besides, what should have been indicated in the citation (again, it's bare) is Gibb's translation. The quote from the Berkeley ORIAS site, BTW, is not Dunn's, but it's from Hamdun & King. That's just the first two paragraphs--which also have missing punctuation and incorrect formatting (italics/blockquote). All this needs much more editorial care. Drmies (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, and thank you for replying to my question! Would this be a better rework of that section?
 * While Ibn Buttla was visiting Mali in 1352, he mentioned the king's interpreter sitting on a chair and beating on an instrument made of reeds. The Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama was the first European to visit Malindi. He discussed being greeted by a king seated on a bronze chair and wearing an ornate robe trimmed in green satin.
 * Also here are better souces
 * The East Africa Protectorate by by Sir Charles Eliot page 13
 * https://ia600209.us.archive.org/16/items/eastafricaprotec00eliouoft/eastafricaprotec00eliouoft.pdf
 * A Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco da Gama by
 * E. G. RAVENSTEIN, F.R.G.S.,
 * CORRESPONDING MEMBER OF THE GEOGRAPHICAL SOCIETY OF LISBON.
 * https://www.gutenberg.org/files/46440/46440-h/46440-h.htm#Footnote_123
 * Ibn Battuta in Black Africa by Said Hamdun (Editor), Noel Q King (Translator)
 * https://archive.org/details/ibnbattutainblac0000ibnb/page/52/mode/2up Developed it entirely (talk) 16:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That looks much better, yes. You can, as far as I'm concerned, easily cite that Fordham page--really all you need to do is cite it as a book, with all its information, and provided the Fordham link in the URL. After all, that page is the immediate source for the quote, but the ultimate source is the book. Good luck, and my apologies for all that racist disturbance from a bunch of vandals. Let's hope that's over. Drmies (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Worth to add info about unique cultural fusion.
 * "Portuguese merchants and explorers in the 16th century influenced local craftsmanship in Southern Africa, including that of the Chokwe people. Soon after, an incredible fusion of chairs emerged, combining designs introduced by the newcomers with indigenous African motifs. Chairs crafted in this manner (known as 'ngundja') served ceremonial purposes and often functioned as thrones for tribal leaders."
 * https://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/2899 DMD1986 (talk) 00:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, we have already reached a consensus. That sub-Saharan Africa had chairs before the Portuguese came that links states that the Portuguese introduce them into the area, therefore an invalid sources Developed it entirely (talk) 02:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this is not a consensus, because you are fixated on a racist argument about whether people in Africa knew about chairs or not, and who is right. Secondly, written sources are not the only source of historical knowledge; we also have museum exhibits. Thirdly, history includes the intermingling of cultures. Just as the English language has words borrowed from French without trying to forcibly prove their English origin. Fourthly, Africa is a large continent that has never been culturally, politically, or technologically uniform. For several days, I have been presenting a museum exhibit that shows a chair in European form with African decorations, which comes from the southeastern region. European-style chairs were introduced to the locals, and they added their native decorations and further developed the design independently (an excerpt from the museum exhibit description, not my imagination). Even if something was known earlier, this model replaced all previous ones in the southeastern region.
 * You only told half the story to prove your point. DMD1986 (talk) 06:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nowhere do I state that you are wrong. Please elaborate on the topic for the other regions in Africa. DMD1986 (talk) 06:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)