Talk:History of wine

Starting a Splinter
Cut n Paste from the main Wine article to use a starting point. There is some good stuff here but it is just too cumbersome to keep intact in the main Wine article-especially if we want to get that one up to FA. Another benefit of the splinter is that we can add more history and really go to town here. In the mean time, I've got a couple history of wine books that I can dig into and hopefully find some more sources. Agne 08:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

New World Wines
This section has some problems, particularly in its point of view of no wine being of world significance from new world countries until the late 20th c. There was incredible interest and desire for the Constantia wine from South Africa. I will endeavor to amend this sometime soon. Dancingredshoes 19:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. This article was originally a cut and paste abstract from the main Wine article where its presence hinder the development of both subjects due to the overwhelming length of the article. Now that it is its own article, we can give it proper care to introduce more NPOV and expand on the areas like New World wine that didn't get much attention before. It's a work in progress so feel free to dive in. AgneCheese/Wine 20:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

greek culture
I believe this statement to be inaccurate: "Much modern wine culture derives from the practices of the ancient Greek..." Someone is going to have to provide evidence for that. Especially given that we don't have symposia, big flat communal drinking cups, etc. Novium 11:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC) I see, you are trying to steal wine from Persians just like you stole your Greek culture and architecture? good for you. some one please help this guy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.164.247.41 (talk) 20:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

China
I just expanded the previously one-sentence section on China, although it could use some improvement and further expansion.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 12:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

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Request source
I would prefer to have a source quoted for that: ''These identifications are regarded with caution by some biochemists because of the risk of false positives, particularly where complex mixtures of organic materials, and degradation products, may be present. The identifications have not yet been replicated in other laboratories.'' Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Banning beer in Germany
I removed the following statement from the lead: "In places such as Germany, beer was banned and considered pagan and barbaric, while wine consumption was viewed as civilized and a sign of conversion." Even though it was cited with R. Phillips A Short History of Wine (pp. 62–3), it looks like misintepretation of the source or simply bad scholarship by Phillips. I've read tons of information about how important and common beer was in most of Northern Europe throughout most of the Middle Ages. And Germany was a leading exporter of beer during the 13th, for crying out loud! Ale and beer was often considered less refined than wine by the upper classes, but formed an important part of the everyday diet for most people. If it was banned, it had to have been an entirely ineffectual ban, or something very local. For references on this I have some references on the matter. Just look up "ale", "beer" or "brewing" in the following works:


 * Adamson, Melitta Weiss Food in Medieval Times. Greenwood Press, Westport, CT. 2004. ISBN 0-313-32147-7
 * Medieval Science, Technology, and Medicine: an Encyclopedia. Thomas Glick, Steven J. Livesey, Faith Wallis (editors). Routledge, New York. 2005. ISBN 0-415-96930-1
 * Regional Cuisines of Medieval Europe: A Book of Essays. edited by Melitta Weiss Adamson (editor). Routledge, New York. 2002. ISBN 0-415-92994-6
 * Scully, Terence The Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages. The Boydell Press, Woodbridge. 1995. ISBN 0-85115-611-8

Peter Isotalo 14:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Georgia is the birthplace of wine?
I removed the clause that said "persistent suggestions that Georgia is the birthplace of wine".

1) The assertion was sourced to a Georgian website. I'm sorry, that doesn't look neutral. 2) The website didn't specifically say that there were "persistent suggestions": it only persistently suggested. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Since these modern states did not exist in the era when viticulture was born, I guess that the locations can be rephrased with reference to natural geographical landmarks (such as "Southern Caucasus"?) which make more sense in that time perspective. Tomas e (talk) 11:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess that's a point too - it certainly could be rephrased as "Colchis was the birthplace of wine", or whatever, but there would still have to be a proper source proving this, and not just a Georgian website. I'm happy with putting it back if the source is e.g. a scholarly article from an Archaeology journal which can argue that the assertion is not debateable. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 16:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/11/07/1714728114.abstract Why is this not mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.49.108.236 (talk) 21:22, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

wine in the middle east
Does whoever edited the 'Islamic Middle East' section really think that wine and other different alcoholic beverages didn't exist just because of prohibitions in Islam? Do some research. I am editing this section and also creating a separate page for "Wine in the Middle East," where, hopefully, much work can be done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicarii (talk • contribs) 19:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

9000 year old wine in china
what about? http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/wine_msg.php?titleid=37 http://articles.latimes.com/2004/dec/11/science/sci-wine11--212.186.162.153 (talk) 23:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Wine. These claims are typically the result of the lack of differentiation between wine and alcoholic/fermented beverages in general in the Chinese language. See Chinese alcoholic beverages for explanation of a frequent mistranslation. Tomas e (talk) 12:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What he said. There was grape wine production in ancient China, but that wasn't it. — Llywelyn II   10:37, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I rephrased the sentences to show that there was a similar beverage to wine produced in ancient china. However, the consensus is not clear that grape wine was specifically produced. From the sources quoted, it seems that grapes were used among other fruits to produce alcoholic beverages but not that grapes alone were used. For those who disagree with this assessment, please provide exact quotes from academic papers analysing primary data (ie. spectral analysis). Indeed, two sources mention grape wine but not necessarily as a separate beverage and these sources do not analyse primary data. --KartvelianCelt (talk) 19:36, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

A little note to the unregistered user with IP address 24.132.187.209: I refer you to the wikipedia page on vandalism. Here is a direct quote: "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism. For example, edit warring over how exactly to present encyclopedic content is not vandalism". My edits and even the edits of other users are not vandalism and I encourage you to use that word with caution. Sure, you may disagree with my interpretation of the sources but that does not mean I'm intentionally trying to obstruct evidence. If you had paid attention, you would see that I did not delete mention of China but rather rephrased it in a way that took account of the limitations in the evidence. I'm sorry for that one occasion I deleted a decent source: I was just trying to revert your edits quickly. I'm writing this note in good faith with hope that you read it and actually try to reach a compromise. I am fully aware of my biases and that's why I think dialogue is the best solution to solve the dispute. --KartvelianCelt (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Chinese wine vessel inside Egypt section
The image of a Chinese vessel inside section about Egypt is very confusing and without closer look suggests, that the vessel is actually Egyptian. I suggest removing the image or moving it to Chinese section. --Kremso (talk) 18:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

First paragraph error and citation 1 broken
The first paragraph cites Iran and Armenia as the earliest wine locations, but first paragraph of Early History section cites Georgia as the earliest. Citation #2 (Iran) states 7000 years ago (5000 BC) while citation #3 (Armenia) states 6000 years ago (4000 BC). Citation #1 link is broken and the only "8000 year old wine archaeology" search on that website (http://www.independent.co.uk) turns up article, "Cradle of wine-making, Georgia looks to foreign markets." Suggest including Georgia in paragraph 1 and replacing or removing citation #1. LoneStar77 (talk) 13:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it should be wider near east instead of near east because iran is included in the list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.233.218.32 (talk) 21:07, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The 8000 year old Georgia link is a hoax, which has become a rumor. Not one article propagating the 8000 year Georgian origin, provides a reference to a scientific article. Patrick Mcgovern's own website, mentions Iran (7000 years ago), Eastern Anatolia, and the Trans-caucus region. Furthermore, recently, traces of 9000 year old, RICE and mixed fermented wine has been identified in China.

How is that a hoax? http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/11/07/1714728114.abstract — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.49.108.236 (talk) 21:25, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

GRAPES INDIGENOUS ONLY TO HELLENIC A.S.I.A. MINOR
It has been scientifically proven that grape vines, are plants that were only indigenous to the area of Asia Minor known in classical times as Ionia. The article fails to cite archeological evidence dating from 8,000-10,000 b.c. which identifies grape seeds that are genetically linked to all genus and variety of naturally existing vines worldwide used in wine production. If memory serves, the only exception might be wild "fruit" grape vines which are unrelated to seeds that were tested (when found in modern-day Turkey). Some wild grape vines do not produce grapes often, some wild vines are totally dormant and most if not all are unsuitable for making wine.

If the reference can be located and added it will confirm that the grapes and fermentation methods, link the Egyptian method of producing fermented alcohol (i.e. beer) to the earliest known production of wine historically by Proto-Hellenes and Homeric Greeks in the "area south of the Aegean" (A.S.I.A.). This corresponds already to the mention of the Armenian and Georgian archeological sites since they are closely related historically and geographically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.23.143 (talk) 05:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:ERA
Per WP:ERA, this edit established this page's usage as BC & AD. Kindly maintain it, pending a new consensus. Thanks, — Llywelyn II   10:37, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Chinese wine
Could someone check the Temple source or even his cites? The old edit here had him claiming that the Classical Pharmacopoeia of the Heavenly Husbandman discusses grape wine within China. The sources at wine in China and Chinese booze, though, seem to think there were no indications of jiu production from putao in the classic texts. — Llywelyn II   13:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Nationalistic claims
I have deleted the obvious nationalistic claims of purported origins of wine in Armenia. Firstly, the sources don't even mention most of what is written. The first link (this one) does not denote to any of such claims. The Armenian-led team of UCLA is obviously trying too hard to prove what cannot be proved from what we know so far, and the usage of these shady "sources" simply casts a bigger shadow to an already shadowy article. Secondly, traces of wine have been found elsewhere and they're definitely older than mere 6,100 years. Again, please refrain from making wild claims about things you have merest knowledge about. -Simboyd (talk) 09:42, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This silly section has returned yet again. If you want to keep it, feel free to find the correct sources which speak about these wild claims. Simboyd (talk) 12:37, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * There are no nationalistic claims, you are clearly mad with Armenian hate and want to remove what you do not like, stop vandalizing the article and removing sourced content. Bottles of wine are portable, a winery is not. This is a far more significant discovery than anything in wine history. --Hyrudagon (talk) 17:20, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand that you deeply care for your country, but that isn't a reason to create such childish, propagandist paragraphs. Using a shady TV-show as a source will not suffice, because you at least need a published source for referencing such controversial articles, and "Booze Traveler" is not one (lol). The entire paragraph is contradictory and absurd:
 * Vitis Vinifera, is the oldest of wine grape species which originated in Armenia in the Areni-1 Cave Complex. Most of the wine found around the world, today; derives comes from the Vitis Vinifera grape from Ancient Armenia.[23]
 * The notion that a genus of a vining plant originates in a cave is idiotic and laughable.
 * Absolutely none of those articles (or shows) say such preposterous things such as "wine originates in Ancient Armenia" or that Vinis Vitifera is the ancestor of modern grapes.
 * The discovery of the cave is indeed important, and it has already received it's appropriate paragraph which discusses the subject. Until we have a much older evidence of winemaking in Armenia, there is absolutely no ground to make such claims. The three countries which are regarded as the most probable birthplaces for wine is China, Iran and Georgia (Southern Caucasus). You can read and educate yourself about the subject here and here. Until then, I must ask you to refrain from satisfying your patriotic needs through wikipedia articles. Armenia is a pleasant place which has achieved a lot, but so far invention of wine is not on the list. Simboyd (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Armenia - birthplace of winemaking - WRONG
Hello,

The oldest wine cellar was found in Shulaveris Gora in Georgia, dated around 6000BC Saying that Armenia is the oldest place and cradle of wine making is a mistake to be corrected in your article, moreover it is 4100BC which is obviously more then 1000 later later then the one in Shulaveris Gora in Georgia.

The sentence:" The oldest evidence of wine production has been found in Armenia (c. 4100 BC),[4][5][6][7][8] where the oldest winery to date was uncovered." must be removed.

Hopefully the mistake will be corrected soon.

Best regards, Zurab Zaalishvili — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zurabzaalishvili (talk • contribs) 07:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Reference needed. Rmhermen (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080103133450/http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/16/oldgrapes_arc.html?category=archaeology&guid=20070316120000 to http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/03/16/oldgrapes_arc.html?category=archaeology&guid=20070316120000
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151208180627/http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-01/12/ancient-winery to http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-01/12/ancient-winery
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/26.html
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110516070021/http://www2.ulg.ac.be/archgrec/IMG/aegeum/aegaeum12%28pdf%29/Palaima.pdf to http://www2.ulg.ac.be/archgrec/IMG/aegeum/aegaeum12%28pdf%29/Palaima.pdf
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Outdated map
The map in the article showing the archeological sites is outdated as it does not show the Areni-1 cave complex. There is a version of the same map with Areni-1 added on commons, should we change it?--Aram-van (talk) 06:47, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Differing Dates
Here to address an issue regarding incorrect dating. Multiple sources state that both Armenia and Georgia date back to ~6000 BC. If one responds, we can discuss the date and provide evidence (sources) stating that Armenia dates back to 6000 BC in wine making, not 4100 BC.

-- @beyondsweetful
 * First of all, the following behaviour is shameful and looks like vandalism for me :
 * "Revised punctuation"
 * "Fixed typo"
 * another "Fixed typo"
 * You have an interesting way of "revising punctuation" and "fixing typo".
 * Secondly, provide serious sources to support what you say. I look forward to your "multiple sources". Above all, I would be interested in the name of the discovery site. Because Areni-1 is the oldest discovery of wine-making on the Armenian territory and the "official" scientific works write "6100 years ago" or "4100 BC". If the oldest evidence dates back to 6000 BC in Armenia, there should be the place of the discovery, the corresponding scientific works etc...
 * Thirdly, I have multiple sources that say that wine-making in Georgia dates back to 8000 BC. These sources are not serious in my opinion because they confuse "8000 years ago" with "8000 BC" but at least you have the info.
 * PS: Please provide a source for the fact that the Georgian discovery dates from only 2000 BC as you have amended the article. I hope you did not invent this date from thin air.
 * --Van Gogia (talk) 09:28, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Steverci's clean up.
Hello I reverted you first so in theory it's up to you to explain on the talk your "clean up".

1) why the image should be removed and 2) why the header should be in chronological order.
 * Now about your questions :

I've already explained my changes (reorganisation + titles + removal of redundancies + relevant photos / chronology + typo + redundancy) but let me explain again. 2) The header should of course be in chronological order. But the Chinese discovery is about a grape and rice mixture based fermentation which is not exactly what we call "wine" today. So the first discovery with only grape is more relevant as we talk about History of wine. 1) Because : There are too many images that do not provide any information or illustration on the subject where they are placed. "The purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter, usually by directly depicting people, things, activities, and concepts described in the article. The relevant aspect of the image should be clear and central." The section is overloaded with images and makes it difficult to read. That is why I've kept only one irrelevant image from these two irrelevant images. Please discuss before making any changes. Regards, --Van Gogia (talk) 12:34, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "Mosaic depicting grapes and wine with Armenian inscription in Jerusalem -> (6th century)"
 * (and "Detail of a relief on the eastern stairs of the Apadana Palace, Persepolis, depicting Armenian ambassadors, bringing wine to the Persian Emperor").
 * have nothing to do with the Areni-1 winery -> (4000BC.)
 * Since the image isn't from Armenia, I moved it to another section. However, the China discovery has multiple sources comparing it to wine. --Steverci (talk) 04:04, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If you compare it to wine it means that it's not properly a wine. And your image is not relevant in the other section too (I think I'll delete the second irrelevant image too by the way). --Van Gogia (talk) 09:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The Microbial Models book describes it as wine. And please do not remove the Areni cave having the world's oldest winery, that is vandalism. --Steverci (talk) 04:12, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You have to be logical: Areni cave has the world's oldest winery or China ?
 * More seriously, I have removed this information from the long image description because of the redundancy of the information that the image illustrates. You will see if you read the article that it is a looping repetition and provides no additional information.
 * I have already told you that you should not modify the article before a consensus on the talk page. Do I have to ask an administrator to block you or are you mature enough to stop by yourself?
 * Have you even read the part of the book that talks about this? -> "rice and grape wine" : That's why in the article we made two points, one talking about "grape wine" and the other about mixtures that can be considered as wine by some sources. In this way, all the information is in the article and the understanding is much clearer between the different discoveries.--Van Gogia (talk) 12:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

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