Talk:Ho Yuen Hoe/GA

GA review
What an extraordinary woman! Before I begin the review, I have one question. The article relies quite heavily on material printed in The Straits Times; can someone please reassure me that that newspaper is considered to be a reliable source? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, she was & u are not alone in saying that - that was why she was featured in a television programme, The Extraordinary People, which brought tears to many who came to know about her life-long struggles & her selfless acts then. Next, the references of the article are derived mainly from three sources: newspapers reports, a book called "A Life Less Ordinary—The Grace of An Earth Angel"(2005) & the official Man Fut Tong Nursing Home website. According to my previous research, I found out there are only two books on her in English known to date; the other book is A Life For Others (2007) by Dr Uma, of which I'm unable to get a copy due to its limited print meant for a charity sale earlier. The majority of the news or updates on her were published mainly in local Chinese newspapers like Lianhe Zaobao, Lianhe Wanbao, Shin Min Daily News & in Chinese Buddhist publications. Due to increasing TV coverage (mainly in Chinese) & her growing fame & supporters, her story was subsequently picked up & covered extensively by The Straits Times during her later years. If u check again, the majority of the ST articles were written by the same author, Wong Kim Hoh, who published a book about extraordinary Singaporeans which included Ven. Ho in 2005. As a result, much references about her afterwards were gleaned from past newspapers archives & the mentioned book.


 * On the issue of reliability, one should assess each article on its merits. u may want to check out what are the primary sources for the recent Edison Chen photo scandal (HK), the shocking case of math prodigy turned call-girl Sufiah Yusof (UK), & the chaotic 2008 Summer Olympics torch relay? u may be surprised to note that more than 80% of their sources were derived mainly from newspapers (or its online version) & no senior editors I know of there, is actively disputing its reliability for use in Wikipedia to date. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've got no problem with citing newspapers, my question was simply is The Straits Times considered to be a reputable and reliable newspaper? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The Straits Times is one of Asia's oldest English-language daily newspaper. It's widely read in S'pore & in the region as it's noted as an authoritative provider of news and views & for its journalistic professionalism. Fyi, it was started in 1845 by the British & has won numerous international journalistic awards such as the Asia Media Awards by IFRA. Due to its long established history & integrity, even our neighbouring Malaysia uses the moniker "The New Straits Times' for one of their similar broadsheet newspaper after our Separation from them in 1965. Good enough? -- Aldwinteo (talk) 02:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, having spent some time now looking at this article and assessing it against the good article criteria I've decided to put it on hold, to allow time for some issues to be addressed:


 * The structure needs some atention. Almost all of it is in a single section, Life, and Commendation is way too short to justify its own section. I'd suggest something like Early life, Bhuddist nun, Charity work, Death and commemoration, or something along those lines.
 * First thing first, it's spelled as 'Buddhist' (originated from the word, 'Buddha'), not 'Bhuddist'. I've renamed the sections now but doesn't the earlier sub-headers under the 'Life' section suffice? Do sectionise them if necessary. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The lead doesn't adequately summarise the article, only picking up on her life when she had become a Bhuddist nun, at the age of 50.
 * I've made some minor revision but I think the lead has already summarised most parts of the article itself. Feel free to improve it further if are not satisfied with it. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a large gap of 11 years between her becoming a Bhuddist nun and setting up the two-storey detached house in Richards Avenue. What was she doing during that period?
 * Unfortunately, the details for this 'missing' period are not available based on my earlier references. I will filled up the necessary details in future if I can get hold of her official biography book - A Life For Others written by Dr Uma. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This may just be a cultural misunderstanding, but it seems strange to my ears to hear that a nun has any savings at all; most, if not all, would have taken a vow of poverty.
 * She is a Mahayana Buddhist (There are 3 major schools of Buddhism: Theravada, Mahayana & Vajrayana mate). Mahayana Buddhists are more liberal on money matters as long it's conducted mainly for charitable benefit & not for themselves exclusively. Besides, she already has a fortune (as a landlord) before she was a nun & afterwards she was actively involved in fund raising activities for her charitable cause until her final days. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "Venerable Ho was born on 18 February 1908 ...". She wasn't called Venerable Ho when she was born, nor when she was bought and sold, so probably better to say "Ho was born ..."? Is Venerable a title given to all Bhuddist nuns? When did she become a Venerable?
 * Her actual name is Ho Yuen Hoe. 'Venerable' or 'Fa Shi' in Chinese are titles conferred by the Sangha to a highly cultivated ordained monk or nun. I do not have the details on when she was conferred the title. Fyi, such individuals usually left behind crystalline relics or 'sarira' (in Sanskrit) in their cremated remains. The presence of sariras are considered a mark of their enlightenment in wisdom & compassion. Buddhists believe these relics are holy and treat them with reverence. (The Buddha left behind sariras in His remains too) -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "The Man Fut Tong Nursing Home at 20 Woodlands Street 82 today." Is 82 a postal zone? If so, probably unnecesary. The MoS deprecates fullstops at the end of sentence fragments like that in captions anyway."
 * No, the '20' refers to the unit or block no. of the Home. 'Woodlands Street 82' refers to the street name only. As for local postal code, it's denoted this way like 'Singapore 600060' -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "When asked on her aspiration in setting up an old folks' home, Venerable Ho said in Cantonese:" Is it signficant that she answered in Cantonese? If so, why?
 * She can't speak Mandarin except in Cantonese, her native mother tongue, as she was formerly from Guangzhou (The Brits formerly called it 'Canton' since the Opium War era). -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "She became a vegetarian and decided not to remarry." Seems strange to link these two ideas in one sentence. Are the two things in some way related?
 * Fyi, she took the Bodhisattva vow & observed the Mahayana Precepts as she wanted to become a nun & to devote her life wholeheartedly to charitable cause then. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "She also set aside S$10,000 for her funeral, including the purchase—made 10 years ago of a simple coffin." I think I know what this is trying to say, but as it's written it doesn't make sense.
 * Didn't notice that line earlier; a legacy of my shorthand writings used in my earlier drafts. Text rephrased. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "She did that daily for nearly three decades, taking no breaks unless she had acute attacks of arthritis." This isn't clear; she could have had arthritis every day, between 12 noon and 12 midnight, which I'm sure isn't what's meant.
 * ??? As per context of that para, it seem clear to me. Pse help me to rephrase as per native speaker of English. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Straightforward English words like "rubber" shouldn't be wikilinked.
 * De-wikilinked this & other words too. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * There are various other copyedit/MoS issues that I won't list here for now; I'll probably be helping to fix most of those anyway.

Good luck! --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, kindly proceed at your pleasure. -- Aldwinteo (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Given the sparsity of sources to work from I think this is a nice job, and I'm going to list it as a GA. It would be nice though if in time some of the gaps could be filled in, particularly that 11 year gap between becoming a nun and starting the old folks' home, but I'm trusting you to do that if and when sources become available. Well done. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 11:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Will do, thanks for everything mate! -- Aldwinteo (talk) 11:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)