Talk:Hokuzan

Baseless dating
The table with reign data, originally added by, is fishy. I removed it. --Nanshu (talk) 17:16, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

This page should not move to the title "King of Sanhoku"
At first I would say apologize to User:Nanshu because i have moved this page back to "Hokuzan" and split his edition to "Hokuzan Seishu". However, his move was also without discussion.

First, the English word "Hokuzan" is mentioned in George H. Kerr's book Okinawa: The History of an Island People, but few English sources the English word "Sanhoku". If we search the google we can also find many results in So according to Article titles, we should use the name that "is most commonly used".

Second, Hokuzan = ja:山北王国, King of Hokuzan/Sanhoku = ja:北山世主, completely different concept. --El caballero de los Leones (talk) 10:47, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Hokuzan is identified as a kingdom by many Japanese dictionaries
Ancient Chinese sources states that "this country have three kings, Chuzan, Sannan, Sanhoku, all of them use the surname Sho (其國有三王曰中山曰山南曰山北皆以尚為姓)" (Ming Shi, vol. 323), some scholars suggest that King of Chuzan, King of Sannan (Nanzan), King of Sanhoku (Hokuzan) are "only royal titles". However, more modern historians identified these three political entities as countries:

Article "琉球" in デジタル大辞泉 mentioned: "14世紀に沖縄島に北山・中山・南山の三つの小国家ができ、のち、中山が統一王朝を樹立."(=In 14th century Okinawa Island divided into three tiny countries: Hokuzan, Chuzan, Nanzan, later, Chuzan established a unified dynasty.)

Article "琉球" in 百科事典マイペディア mentioned "14世紀半ばごろには沖縄本島に北山(ほくざん)・中山(ちゅうざん)・南山(なんざん)の小国家が形成される." (=Around mid-14 century, three tiny countries: Hokuzan, Chuzan, Nanzan, were formed in Okinawa Island)

Article "琉球" in ブリタニカ国際大百科事典 mentioned "11～12世紀頃から古代首長，按司が割拠，やがて沖縄島には三つの小国家（山北〈北山〉，中山，山南〈南山〉）が形成され，明朝廷にそれぞれ朝貢し覇を競うが，のち中山に統一された（第一尚氏王朝）. (From around the 11th to 12th centuries, ancient chiefs and aji holded their own ground, eventually, three tiny countries: Sanhoku (Hokuzan), Chuzan, Sannan (Nanzan), were formed in Okinawa Island, each of them competed for tribute to the Ming court, later, Chuzan unified (the First Sho dynasty).)

Kerr, George H. (2000) Okinawa, the History of an Island People Singapore: Tuttle: "This northern principality was now called Hokuzan (Northern Mountain), a poor country" (pp. 61), "Thus three principalities came into being on Okinawa... The lords of Chuzan Hokuzan and Nanzan were in fact not "kings" at all, but petty barons, each with his own retainers owing him direct service, and his own estates." (pp.62)

In my opinion, more rigorously, we should identified them as "three independent political entities".--El caballero de los Leones (talk) 15:24, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 21 February 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Procedural: Moved as proposed. This was proposed at WP:RM/TR as a reversion of a bold move, and as such should have been automatically enacted, not contested. Andrewa's alt proposal or the present name "King of Sanhoku" may have merit, but the article should be at its original long-term name of Hozukan name while such a proposal is discussed, not at the undiscussed new name. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 11:48, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

King of Sanhoku → Hokuzan – In fact, User:Nanshu totally rewrite the article Hokuzan and move it to King of Sanhoku without discussion, not me. I just reverted it to the old version, and split his version into a new article: Hokuzan Seishu. Hokuzan is NOT EQUAL to King of Hokuzan/Sanhoku. Two entirely different concepts. In his opinion "Sanhoku is primarily a royal title", but actually many historians regard it as a "country" (see Talk page for details). In Japanese Wikipedia there are two different articles: ja:北山王国 for Hokuzan, ja:北山世主 for the Lord of Hokuzan. Though his rewrite is valuable, but this action disrespects other people's contributions prior to him. I think it's better to split his edition into a new article "King of Sanhoku", then move this article back to Hokuzan and revert it prior to his edition. El caballero de los Leones (talk) 15:49, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Clearly contested. Needs discussion. --Jack Frost (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think his edition is also clearly contested, but administrator have accepted his opinion and move it to "King of Sanhoku" again. How to let more people notice it and discuss about it? Very few people notice about history of Okinawa, I'm afraid it will be on hold for a long time! (He also totally rewrite Nanzan then move to King of Sannan without discussion yesterday and I can do nothing. Oh no.)--El caballero de los Leones (talk) 16:15, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, the best way of discussing such moves is through a Requested Move discussion. You can see how to create one here. I haven't done so for you as I'm not entirely clear on what pages you want to be moved and why. Please follow those instructions to commence the discussion. Thanks, --Jack Frost (talk) 16:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 02:45, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Hokuzan is a political entity and later as a region of Ryukyu Kingdom, its not equal to "King of Sanhoku" of Sanzan period (See below). User:Nanshu replaced the article "Hokuzan" with the current text and move to "King of Sanhoku" without discussion. Though his action is contested, his rewrite is valuable. I think its better to revert to this version oldid=969577016, and split his version into an article "King of Sanhoku".--El caballero de los Leones (talk) 04:15, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Move to Kingdom of Sanhoku unless English sources can be found for a better name. This discussion seems to be entirely about translation from Japanese sources. These establish the notability of the topic but are of no help in determining the best article title. Andrewa (talk) 17:42, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

"Hokuzan" is also a nominal prefecture of Ryukyu Kingdom
As a political entity and later as a region, "Hokuzan" is not equal to the "King of Hokuzan (or Sanhoku)". During the Second Shō period, Hokuzan (北山), Chūzan (中山) and Nanzan (南山) were nominal fu (府 lit. "prefectures") of Ryukyu Kingdom without administrative function:

Below are the original text from Chūzan Seifu (with my English translation):

三府五州三十五郡俗叫府州曰方又叫郡曰間切 Three fu, five shū, thirty-five gun (fu is commonly referred to as hō, gun is also referred to as magiri)

中頭 中山府 五州首里三平等那霸泊十一郡西原浦添宜野灣北谷讀谷山越來美里中城勝連與那城具志川是也原有八郡康熙年間分爲十一郡 (Nakagami) Chūzan-fu: five shū (Shuri Mihira, Naha, Tomari), eleven gun (Nishihara, Urasoe, Ginowan, Chatan, Yomitanzan, Goeku, Misato, Nakagusuku, Katsuren, Yonashiro, Gushikawa. Originally there are eight gun; divided into eleven gun in Kangxi era.)

島尻 南山府 十五郡真和志南風原東風平大里佐敷知念玉城摩文仁具志頭喜屋武真壁高嶺兼城小祿豐見城是也原有十四郡康熙年間分爲十五郡 (Shimajiri) Nanzan-fu: fifteen gun (Mawashi, Haebaru, Kochinda, Ōzato, Sashiki, Chinen, Tamagusuku, Mabuni, Gushichan, Kyan, Makabe, Takamine, Kanegusuku, Oroku, Tomigusuku. Originally there are fourteen gun; divided into fifteen gun in Kangxi era.)

國頭 北山府 九郡恩納金武久志名護羽地本部今歸仁大宜味國頭是也原有五郡康熙年間分爲九郡 (Kunigami) Hokuzan-fu: nine gun (Onna, Kin, Kushi, Nago, Haneji, Motobu, Nakijin, Ōgimi, Kunigami. Originally there are five gun; divided into nine gun in Kangxi era.)

The name 山北 (Sanhoku) and 山南 (Sannan) are also marked in this map of Ryukyu Kingdom.



So it's better to have two different articles: "Hokuzan" for the region or administrative division, and the "King of Sanhoku (or Hokuzan)" for the ruler during Sanzan period. If the article is split, the article "Hokuzan" need to rewrite, we need to expand Hokuzan Kanshu and the Hokuzan-fu in the article "Hokuzan".

In addition, we SHOULD NOT confuse Nakagami, Shimajiri, Kunigami with the modern day Nakagami District, Shimajiri District, Kunigami District.--El caballero de los Leones (talk) 03:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)