Talk:Hole punching (networking)

Should rename
People who are not computer-oriented would see hole-punching as something you do to a piece of paper or leather with a metal instrument. This article should be NAT hole punching. --Treekids 21:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hole Punching is more than just a computer term


 * Hole punching is a more general term- its page should be a *disambiguation* page. NAT hole punching, UDP hole punching, and Network address translation are the places this content should go. --Treekids (talk) 16:08, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Merges proposed by Khromatikos and Ministry of Truth
Maybe this should be merged with Network address translation.

Either that or, it should be greatly expanded and reference the paper Peer-to-Peer Communication Across Network Address Translators which explains the concept in great detail. - Khromatikos 07:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Another non-stub article on the same subject with considerably more detail is UDP hole punching. Deletion or redirection there sound like two viable options. Any thoughts ?--Ministry of Truth 14:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Redirect has my vote. --Christopher Thomas 15:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * UDP hole punching is a more specific technique- it should be more specialized and NAT hole punching should be more general. No merge.


 * Network address translation is a more general technology, and NAT hole punching is a specific technique for NAT traversal. No merge.
 * --Treekids 21:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

NAT hole punching listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect NAT hole punching. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. 06:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 22 May 2015

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The result of the move request was: page moved Calidum T&#124;C 17:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Hole punching → NAT hole punching – Hole punching should be a redirect to hole punch. I'm open to suggestions for an alternative title, but this seems to be the most common unambiguous term that includes both UDP and TCP hole punching. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 10:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. The computing technique seems rather specialised and I expect it will be obscure to many readers. I wouldn't be opposed to a dab page though. PC78 (talk) 23:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. The common usage is not the computing term. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


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Requested move 31 May 2015

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The result of the move request was: withdrawn by the proposer. (non-admin closure) &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 16:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

NAT hole punching → Hole punching – The article should be renamed back, as it is not necessarily related to NAT configurations. – &mdash; Dsimic (talk
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:43, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * There are many ways to punch holes, in metal or paper etc, not only in computers' firewalls. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:43, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello! Totally agreed, but what the article describes isn't strictly about NAT configurations.  Maybe "Firewall hole punching" would be a better article title? &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 22:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * See the hatlink at the top of page Hole punch for NAT hole punching, TCP hole punching, UDP hole punching and ICMP hole punching. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That hathote is fine, but the NAT hole punching article isn't necessarily about punching holes in NAT configurations. You may need to punch a hole in a firewall that has no NAT configured. &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 23:15, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose reversing the recent move. "Hole punching" is a generic concept, not a networking-specific concept, and is most likely to refer to punching physical holes in paper. As can be read above, objections to the use of the generic title "hole punching" for this concept date back at least eight years. If there's a better title for the networking concept, I'm perfectly willing to listen to those who know more about this technology than I do and would support such a move instead. The generic title "hole punching" should be kept as it is now, a redirect to hole punch. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * How about "Firewall hole punching" instead? &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 01:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no particular objection to that title. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 01:50, 1 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Procedural close flip-flop nomination, right after it was closed. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:22, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * NOTE hole punch was determined to be the primary topic of hole punching and you haven't provided any rationale to counter that -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:22, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment if the request is to be "firewall hole punching" I feel this nomination should be withdrawn and resubmitted as the current request is procedurally very poor. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:24, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't something like that be a rather unneeded formality? &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 05:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose per previous discussion, but by all means come up with a better or more accurate title. PC78 (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per previous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)


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Requested move 1 June 2015

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The result of the move request was: Article renamed to Hole punching (networking). &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 08:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

NAT hole punching → Firewall hole punching – What the article describes isn't strictly about NAT configurations, a hole can be punched in a firewall that has no NAT configured such as on systems providing shell access to multiple users. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 01:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC) &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 17:00, 1 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak support. This should have just been proposed in the last move request, rather than closing and reopening it. However, as I've said, I'm fine with moving it so long as the original title stays as a redirect to hole punch. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 02:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Meh, others asked for a brand new proposal. &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 04:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I think "hole punching" is the common and most generic name. The argument for why "NAT hole punching" is too restrictive, also seems to work the other way around: a technique that punches a hole through a firewall might not punch a hole through a NAT. As others have expressed above that Hole punching should redirect to Hole puncher, using a disambiguation tag would be more appropriate: Hole punching (networking) or Hole punching (computing). Also, why do we have separate articles on TCP hole punching, UDP hole punching and ICMP hole punching? Why not discuss them in this article instead. —Ruud 18:05, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a very good point! Despite the fact that firewalls and NATs are pretty much related (with the latter usually seen as a subset of the former), I'd support Hole punching (networking) as the new article title. &mdash; Dsimic (talk | contribs) 03:57, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment i would prefer Hole punching (computing) or Hole punching (networking) 76.120.162.73 (talk) 16:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)


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Proposed merge with UDP hole punching
Large overlap but articles UDP hole punching and hole punching (networking) are basically the same age. Ethanpet113 (talk) 04:51, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Not unreasonable, but oppose as stated as UDP hole punching is an independently notable type of hole punching; if a merge were to occur it would be best to also consider the other types, ICMP hole punching and TCP hole punching. Klbrain (talk) 07:04, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

"Nefarious"??
I'm not sure what the meaning of this is supposed to be:

"Using TCP nefarious hole punching, it is possible to send compressed SYN packets through into a common ACK path."

Is 'nefarious' a term of art? Also, the second half of the phrase is very awkwardly worded... ␄ –Nucleosynth (t c) 17:28, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Not an art term; just its every-day meaning: nefarious. Klbrain (talk) 07:58, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 23 May 2021

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Hole punching (networking) → Hole punching – Hole punching seems to the the PT. There is no other article by that name. Hole punching is a new dab that doesn't list multiple titles of the same name and is unnecessary. There could be a hatnote to hole punch at most. MB 18:11, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I would prefer to error on WP:NOPRIMARY. I am not convinced that there is a primary topic. When I do a Google search of "hole punching" a get a mixture of both (not to mention a bunch of Google Ads for various tools to do a hole punch). And that new dab page that was recently created use to redirect to hole punch anyway since 2015. See and  above. Zzyzx11 (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment |Hole_punching|Hole_punch this shows that Hole punching (networking) and Hole punch get around the same number of views and almost none go through the old redirect. Readers mostly are getting to Hole punch and Hole punching (networking) directly. If you did search on Hole punching, I think you are much more likely looking for the network concept than an activity of using a hole punch. I think the google search show more its on networking, and even more so if the term is quoted. MB 19:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose, the current WP:NOPRIMARY setup works best. 162 etc. (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose: If there is a primary topic for "hole punching", it involves the punching of physical holes – e.g., using a hole punch. —&#8239;BarrelProof (talk) 20:02, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the long-term significance of Hole punch.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 20:53, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose, primary would be physical holes, or WP:NOPRIMARY In ictu oculi (talk) 07:40, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I've added the metalworking meaning (punch (tool)), which is the oldest of the lot. Narky Blert (talk) 12:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)