Talk:Holes (novel)/Archive 1

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jessehersh, Haykim.

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Alternative ending
Can you write an alternative ending? 213.23.30.56 (talk) 12:54, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The choldren here of a sinkhole none of the adults dare to go around and call it radio active to keep the kids away. The children climb down into the sinkhole with the help of one of the adults that's gone rogue because his loat loves singing he's thought he's heard from time to time within the depths of the hole. They find that the hole actually contains a race of clones below the surface that are used as batterys for the use of oil production and their dreams play out on televisons for observations. The song was from the clone of the dead woman who was singing in the dream ans the janitor had turned her channel up listening to her song. They report it to the media and a group called the umbrella co begins the search for the rest of the hives in the land and the man continues to search for the clone of his love in hopes they share the same memories and he can have that love again. KileyMitchell79 (talk) 00:20, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Needs more
This article in general needs more about the book besides a summary and awards. Ideas, interps, history, the toad conspiracy.... generally more stuff. 128.197.244.195 (talk) 15:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That's why we're an encyclopedia that anyone can edit the contents of our pages - if there's an article you're not happy with, change it! All you have to is click the "Edit this page" button at the top on one f the four tabs and then log in or create an account and then you are free to edit the article itself. If you need any help, drop me a line on my talk page.  Cheers, Redvers ★ Hello ★ Doings 19:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Request for Article Protection
Due to the number of IP spams in this article's log, I would like to request temporary semi-protection for this article. Brennonbrimhall (talk) 19:41, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you think we need to add the soundtrack?
I think we need to make a page or section for the *soundtrack. Thief Lord 01:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC) ¥èá!!! *please note there is no soundtrack for 'Holes' by Lois Sachar

Onion blood vile juice
I think what the orginial text is saying is that the yellow spotted lizards don't like your blood once you've been onion flavored (via the onion juice) so they won't bite you if you are onion-flavored. No one is making the claim that the onions have blood, per se. no, it means that the yellow spotted lizards can smell the onion juice (sploosh) inside you, no contaminated blood because onion juice can not access your blood just by eating it, you would have to inject it directly in.

Atlant 00:03, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The onion juice isn't sploosh; that's the name Zero gives the spiced peaches under the boat, and later, the name for Stanley III's invention. However, you're right about the onion smell finding its way to the blood (and presumably sweat) through digestion. --75.173.88.157 (talk) 01:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Movie Stars
Who are those people starring in the movie? I just watched the movie for around the eighth time, and Sigourney Weaver or somethi9ng like that, and Jon Voight are only secondary characters. The main characters are the person who played Hector zeroni, and Shia LeBouf who plays Stanley Yelnats. Weaver only plays the warden of the camp, who is only featured in a few parts of the film, and Voight plays one of the 'Counselors' at camp, who could barely even be considered a secondary character! I mean, there's only one small insight into either of their pasts, which is one small clip near the end for the warden's, and little to nothing is known about the Counselor, apart from the fact he's violating parole.i think this is about a guy that is cursed n is the one that is mistaken to steal shoes by a famous baseball player

the reason why they are scondary characters is not because of their apperance in the film but of what the're characters cause to happen in the film. if you think about it then the councelor, mr Pendanski, caused Zero to run away because he kept on mocking him and the Warden caused the whole camp to dig all those terrible holes didn't she! seriously, if your going to critisice it at least think about what you're talking about, i think that it's quite clear that you don't have a very good mark in your english GCSE and i'm only 13.that's low beingput down by a 13 year old you know.

The article is about the book, not the film. Please move your discussion there if you believe it is relevant. 160.39.159.146 (talk)

Slavery?
Noting that the people are sent to a place where they limit water, force them to dig holes considered a violation to human rights?

Descent of darkness (talk) 02:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Plot creep
As the months have passed, I've noticed that different people keep adding more and more information from the book into the plot summary section. I submit that the summary is quite long already. Surely all the important points of the plot are already covered, so I request that new information not be added unless there's some good reason for it.

On a related note, is it really necessary to list every single award the book has gotten? Eric119 02:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

eric your grammar is wrong. at the end of your complaint you should have put recieved, not gotten because as it is not even a word.
 * "Gotten" is the past participle of "get" and as such is the form the word takes after "have". His sentence is quite correct, though a quick check with Wiktionary reveals that it's considered archaic in Britain. 71.145.133.194 (talk) 17:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Speaking to your second question, I'd say "Yes". This is another book that tends to turn up on "banned book lists" so listing it's awards is a nice counterweight.


 * Atlant 12:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I absolutely 100% agree with regard to the plot summary. In fact, more than just not expanding it, I'd say it needs trimming down. As a point of comparison, the plot summary in the War and Peace article is less than a quarter the length of the one here! --Spondoolicks 14:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well waddyaknow - there's actually a tag just for this kind of thing. --Spondoolicks 16:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

excuse me 'spoodoolicks' but i believe that you should have put 'what do you know' instead of the slang/chav translation waddyaknow. please use the proper english sentences because it does make you look really utterley stupid.

^ Well, YOU forgot to capitalize "excuse", put a comma before and after the term of direct address, capitilize "I", put quotations marks around "waddyaknow", capitalize the p at the beginning of your second sentence, and capitalize "English." Also, unless this is a matter of difference between American and British spelling, you misspelled "utterly." Furthermore, "waddyaknow" is not a slang translation, it is a slang term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.243.34 (talk) 04:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The plot isn't detailed enough, I think we should write more about the boys, and less about the past.


 * here here^^^

Am I wrong? I didn't see anything in ther plot summary about the boys having to dig holes every day, looking for a treasure left by Kate Barlow when the lake dried up, Stanley escaping into the mountains with Zero, Stanley carrying Zero up the Mountain in fulfillment of Madame Zeroni's prophecy, the onion jam saving their lives, Stanley's ultimate redemption and release, or Stanley's father gettign rich from using the onion jam as a foot deodorant. 68.116.40.228 (talk) 20:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

No offence to whoever wrote the article, but their grammar is awful! Many words are misspelled and a few parts of the plot summary are repeated, as if they've been pasted twice. Can this article please be cleaned up? For instance, look at the last few sentences: "As Stanley found the gold tube, X-Ray said to Stanley, that Stanley should gave him the tube and the other things he would find while he dig holes. At the end, Stanley find an suitcase with gold and all that stuff. The warden thought, that the suitcase belong to them, but the suitcase belong only to Stanley Yelnats. He could go home and hetook Zero with him to his home, because Zero was poor, so he have a family yet."86.26.201.112 (talk) 17:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The plots summary reads as if it were written by a nine year old. 160.39.159.146 (talk) 20:19, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The summary is still awful, but it's somewhat improved. Could this page be semi-protected or something? 92.21.166.70 (talk) 18:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed! The sentence that did it for me was "The Warden scratched Mr.Sir with her poisenous nailpolish for distrubing her." I would do it myself, but I have never read the book... I came here via the newbery/newbury page to find out what the book was about! Hopefully, it's a bit more polished then this... I even did a quick google search to see if some 8 year old posted her summary of the story to the internet, only to have it pirated by some well-intentioned soul... ColbyWolf (talk) 00:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Split
The book and movie should be separate articles. Sarah crane 13:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * They already are. Eric119 19:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Song
Should the words to the pig lulaby be added?

No. We aren't obligated to include every detail. Joyous! | Talk 17:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC) '''

The one Sarah sung:

If only, if only," the woodpecker sighs

"The bark on the tree was as soft as the skies."

While the wolf waits below, hungry and lonely,

Crying to the moo---ooo--oon,

"If only, If only,"

The one Zero's mum sang:

If only, if only the moon speaks no reply;

Reflecting the sun and all that's gone by.

Be strong my weary wolf, turn around boldly.

Fly high, my baby bird.

My angel, my only.

Repeat
Half the article was copied and tacked onto the end; I deleted the repeat.

My recent revert
I just reverted the article all the way back to the edit of 23:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC) by Joyous!, as this was the last good version before a series of vandal edits and incomplete reverts that left the article incomplete & otherwise messed up. Good edits since then, if any, will need to be redone.-- Shelf Skewed  Talk  01:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Zero
Is there a reason why Zero is not included in the character profiles on this page? He's a major enough character to warrant being included, particularly when even Twitch has his own paragraph! Simfelemy (talk) 15:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

umm, not a user, but should the warden have a character profile?

Someone removed him, no one ever noticed...tyertutgrgrhghfrgihrriudfgui

Fair use rationale for Image:Louis sachar holes.gif
Image:Louis sachar holes.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 22:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Holes.jpg
Image:Holes.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Character Descriptions
I noticed they're not there anymore. I think they were useful, maybe they could be put back again. Someone deleted them before so that there were just subtitles, someone came and thought that wasn't part of the article and deleted the subtitles, and no one ever put them there after. XRoyalSinx (talk) 21:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Magnet
Magnet is Hispanic

Character articles
I have noticed that characters from the novel currently warrant their own article. I have added a merge tag to each of the articles suggested that they be merged here, as each of them fail notability per WP:N and also appear to be unreferenced. SpideyFan09 13:48, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

ARUGUMENT ABOUT THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!
Please, eveyone, Plz write an argument about holes? (Person A) likes the book, but feels as if something is missing, and (Person B) Aboslutly hates it, And (Person C) loves everything about it. Thank you!♥♥♥♥♥♥ User: Hetalia Foreva!! 4:45 pm Australia 10/5/2012  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.212.78.231 (talk) 06:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

What if the treasure they were digging for were people. What if they were looking for a hidden race of people trapped under a huge slab of sement in new jersey and they found clues that led them to the discovery of a mystery they find out to be horrifying. KileyMitchell79 (talk) 00:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Mixing it up
How in the seven seas can you make such a mix-up from such a wonderful book? Can't you find a guy able to tell the story well? There is nothing here from the feeling you get reading the book, it is like you put all the words from the book in a hat and pick them up randomly one by one... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.7.147.61 (talk) 02:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Stanley's age
Are you sure Stanley's 13 at the beginning of the book? In my German-language version of "Holes" Stanley is described as 15.-31.17.92.168 (talk) 05:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC) if you have so many comments why dont you change it by yourself — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.107.100.103 (talk) 09:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Directly copied writing with no reference to source.
The characters info. is from http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/holes/canalysis.html, but has no reference to the source. Most of the wiki. text on characters is either directly, copied or slightly modified from the original source, although in both cases, the source is clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.77.211 (talk) 13:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Plot
The plot of this book is that there is a boy named Stanley. He is accused of stealing $5,000 auctioned shoes from a famous baseball player named Clyde Livingston. He is sent to a juvenile camp called Camp Green Lake (CGL) and he meets bad boys. I don't want to spoil it, but Stanley seems suspicious of the camp and what they do when a camper finds something interesting.

--104.249.225.193 (talk) 22:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC) A guest.

Publication history
deleted from the lead paragraph, belongs nowhere at this stage
 * Originally, the book was to be called Wrong Place, Wrong Time, Wrong Kid.

This needs context, something about the writing, submission, editing. And source of course.

deleted from footer, so-called Bibliography We don't yet cover publication history except to name three publishers in infobox book. There is nothing important about this one except it's formal citation in current refs #4 and 6, which repeat in formal overkill all the data in this bullet line.

--P64 (talk) 23:10, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

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Plan for Revision

 * The page is lacking an interpretation/reception section. We would add this by using research from academic articles/journals.


 * The extensive character descriptions are all either pulled directly from Sparknotes or slightly edited version of these descriptions http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/holes/characters/. We will either revise these character descriptions or make clear that are plagiarized and cite the Sparknotes webpages.
 * Holes could benefit from a section on Themes (these include Fate/Folklore and Friendship). This will be added from academic articles/journals and critical analyses of the novel.


 * Holes may also benefit from a section on the structure of the book. The novel jumps between past and present to tell the story of both Stanley, his family, and the camp/town and this form should be made more clear. This is slightly touched on in the plot summary as it is broken up by location. However, the changes in place and time are not separated like this in the novel.

Bibliography


 * Møllegaard, K. "Haunting and History in Louis Sachar's Holes." Western American Literature, vol. 45 no. 2, 2010, pp. 138-161. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/wal.0.0117
 * Wallin, Marie. "Literacy and the Power of the Law: Louis Sachar's Holes and Lemony Snicket's a Bad Beginning." Angles on the English-Speaking World, vol. 8, 2008, pp. 101-110. EBSCOhost, ezproxy.valpo.edu/login?url=http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=mzh&AN=2013100467&site=ehost-live&scope=site.
 * Nikolajeva, M. ""A Dream of Complete Idleness": Depiction of Labor in Children's Fiction." The Lion and the Unicorn, vol. 26 no. 3, 2002, pp. 305-321. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/uni.2002.0031
 * Wilkie-Stibbs, C. "Borderland Children: Reflections on Narratives of Abjection." The Lion and the Unicorn, vol. 30 no. 3, 2006, pp. 316-336. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/uni.2006.0043
 * Makman, L. H. "Child Crusaders: The Literature of Global Childhood." The Lion and the Unicorn, vol. 26 no. 3, 2002, pp. 287-304. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/uni.2002.0033
 * Barker, Jani L. "Virtuous Transgressors, Not Moral Saints: Protagonists in Contemporary Children's Literature.", 2014.
 * Pinsent, Pat. " Fate and Fortune in a Modern Fairy Tale: Louis Sachar's Holes." Children's Literature in Education, vol. 33 no. 3 (2002), pp. 203-212. https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1019682032315
 * Mascia, Elizabeth G. (2001) "Holes: Folklore Redux." The ALAN Review, vol. 28, no 2, p. 51.https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ALAN/v28n2/mascia.html Haykim (talk) 04:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Annotated Bibliograph: here are some of our annotated sources we anticipate using on our revisions '''Mascia, Elizabeth G. "Holes: Folklore Redux." The ALAN Review, vol. 28, no 2, (2001), pp. 51. https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ALAN/v28n2/mascia.html'''

Mascia argues that Holes is grounded in folklore, and realism with these fairy tale elements. By integrating these folkloric elements, Holes keeps from becoming too dark of a tale. Good is able to win over evil and injustice.


 * Folklore most clearly seen in the curse of bad luck on the great-great-grandfather
 * Cursed by a witch,the magic properties of the onion juice, the transformation of Stanley into able to save his family
 * Checks off many boxes in Stith Thompson's Motif -Index of Folk Literature
 * Realism seen in racism--why Kissin Kate was prevented from being with Sam--and poverty

'''Hearne, Betsy."He Didn't Do It." The New York Times. 15 Nov. 1998, https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/15/reviews/981115.15hearnet.html?scp=91&sq=black%2520hole&st=cse'''

A positive review of Holes released shortly after Holes was published. Hearne applauds the use of mystery and humor to draw in the reader and argues it is a good read for the whole family. She enjoys the use of "folkloric devices" and says that though the book may be about boys, girls will also enjoy it.


 * Cites the use of gross humor that keeps the book light (A kid nicknamed Barf Bag, for instance)
 * Holes seems like it would be overly complex, unsuccessful, and predictable, but is surprisingly good and fresh.

'''Nikolajeva, M. ""A Dream of Complete Idleness": Depiction of Labor in Children's Fiction." The Lion and the Unicorn, vol. 26 no. 3, 2002, pp. 305-321. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/uni.2002.0031'''

Nikolajeva argues that depictions of work and labor have been missing from the majority of children's fiction. Because children's literature is written by adult authors, the view of childhood is given through a potentially inaccurate, idealized adult lens. He argues the motif of forced labor in Holes is unique, but that Sachar is not successful in his commentary on labor in Holes.


 * If work is used, it is synonymous with play time. The children's work is seen as fun.
 * Literature is unrealistic about financial situations
 * discussion of Holes begins on page 318
 * Calls the ending of Holes "implausible."

'Møllegaard, K. "Haunting and History in Louis Sachar's Holes''." Western American Literature, vol. 45 no. 2, 2010, pp. 138-161. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/wal.0.0117'''

Mollegard analyzes how the themes of Holes are dependent on the fact that it takes place in a desert. By combining uncomfortable historical events with the romanticism of the Old West, the stories in Holes crossover with myths and folklore to make the novel successful.


 * Idea that something is hiding in the desert, despite the open and vast space
 * Focus on how the landscape affects how we read the novel.

'''Wallin, Marie. "Literacy and the Power of the Law: Louis Sachar's Holes and Lemony Snicket's a Bad Beginning." Angles on the English-Speaking World, vol. 8, 2008, pp. 101-110. EBSCOhost, ezproxy.valpo.edu/login?url= http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=mzh&AN=2013100467&site=ehost-live&scope=site .'''

Wallin explains how names in Holes play an important role in how the characters find their identity. She also details the theme of literacy as an escape from bad conditions and how in the book learning literacy mirrors Zero's escape from the camp.


 * Gives examples of counselors, Zero, other campers (names separate their camp identity from their real world identity)
 * Also explains how the power of authority at Camp Green Lake affects the campers

'''Pinsent, Pat. " Fate and Fortune in a Modern Fairy Tale: Louis Sachar's ''Holes." Children's Literature in Education'', vol. 33 no. 3 (2002), pp. 203-212. https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1019682032315 '''

Pinsent explains how fairy tales are still alive and well in children's literature, just present through different forms. He argues that Holes should be viewed as a modern day fairy tale because it uses similar techniques and concepts to explain darker themes such as cruelty and racism to children.


 * Examples of uses of irony and tragedy
 * Uses the friendship between Stanley and Zero as the baseline for comparison to past fairy tales.
 * Questions if there is an actual theme/lesson that can be taken from the novel--what are we supposed to learn from the story?

Public Reception
Hello all, I have removed the "accolades" section and replaced it with an updated and more thorough "public reception" section. --Jessehersh (talk) 01:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Added Literary Elements and Themes
I have added two section: one on Literary Elements of the novel and another on Themes of the novel. I have only added one theme, but invite others to add themes they deem important.Haykim (talk) 01:47, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

What if one of the children began dreaming of another world beneath their own because of clues they began finding leading them to believe there was more to the digging. What if they uncover a terrible secret about a clone race under the surface. Then they realize those people know knowthing of the race above and are actually being used as batteries in an oil type productions and are trapped inside their own deeam world. Help. Its real. KileyMitchell79 (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Updates Still Needed
Editor Haykim and I have updated several parts of the article but there are still improvements to be made. First of all, the plot section has undergone revisions but I believe it could still be shortened substantially. The "present day" section should be merged with the "Camp Green Lake" section and I think a section should be added explaining how the different sections intersect throughout the novel.

The characters section also needs revisions. There are many characters in the book, but I don't think they all need so much detail. The language used to describe them is very in depth and descriptive and I think it could be substantially shortened if some of the details were to be discarded.

Haykim and I have also started a "themes" section and we invite other editors to add on to it with other themes they deem important. Finally, we would like to find more articles linking to the Holes page but are having trouble finding ones where this would be an important link--we invite other users to please help us connect this page! Please respond if you disagree or have other comments on the changes we've made.

--Jessehersh (talk) 15:53, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Weavers Needle
The mountain that gives the thumbs up is clearly based on Weavers Needle, and the treasure on the legend of the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine. No references for this, but it might be worth trying to find some.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:06, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * HOLES.jpg

English
Did Stanley yalnets end up in New York — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.113.179.248 (talk) 15:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)