Talk:Holistic Management International

Notability?
The only source aboutHMI is a book published by HMI! IMO this doesn't demonstrate notability. The remainder of the sources have been added to verify information about holistic management, or the numbers of farms run by women in the USA. Sionk (talk) 14:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I added some references. I hope that helps. As far as notability, would a TED Talk qualify as notability? Savory just gave a TED Talk. HMI is running seminars in Texas sponsored by USDA-NRCS. Is that notable? Joel Salatin is also giving seminars and speaking engagements around the world, though not directly related to HMI, it is definitely an offshoot of HM. Would influencing a guy like Salatin be considered influential and therefore notable? Or is it appropriate listed elsewhere? I didn't put any links to that, since I don't know if it is appropriate or not. Savory's work is incredibly influential, you see influence of his work in all the major agricultural universities in the USA from Cornell to University of Wisconsin to University of Minnesota,etc.. But I am not sure exactly how that relates to this particular stub? I realize the method, the man, the organization are all 3 different things.68.12.189.106 (talk) 06:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Different orginisations
In researching the organisation I've come across a number of different entities:, Anyone know how all these groups interrelate.--Salix (talk): 21:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Holistic Management International
 * Africa Centre for Holistic Management
 * The David West Station for Holistic Management
 * Holistic Resource Management of Texas, Inc
 * Center for Holistic Resource Management
 * Savory Institute‎
 * And another one the Savory Center This was formed in 1984 by Savory and Butterfield. I suspect there may have been a name change/rebranding at some point.--Salix (talk): 23:51, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strangly somewhere between issues 128 (Nov/Dec 2009) and 129 (Jan/Feb 2010) of In Practice Savory and Butterfield stop being mentioned as founders and the Africa Centre for Holistic Management no longer features as a related org. I guess there was a split and thats probably when the Savory Institute‎ was formed.--Salix (talk): 02:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * To the best of my knowledge:

Redddbaron (talk) 09:37, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Africa Center for Holistic Management in northwest Zimbabwe and the sister organization, the Savory Institute in Colorado are for profit consulting organizations.
 * Holistic Management International in Albuquerque, NM (previously called Allan Savory Center for Holistic Management) is a non-profit government grant sponsored educational organization. They relate because Savory founded the non profit 25 years ago, then left to start his for profit consulting. (apparently to avoid conflict of interest issues since HMI receives federal grants)
 * The David West case study is part of HMI. ie... They manage it and use it for teaching, but don't own it.
 * Holistic Resource Management of Texas, Inc is now Holistic Management International-Texas
 * Center for Holistic Resource Management is now also Holistic Management International just a name change

Keep
At least for now. HMI does work in cooperation with the USDA, that establishes a certain level of notability. I will try to sort the confusion starting tomorrow, and will also see if more international notability can be established or not. I will also work on the reference issues if possible. Maybe even see if I can bring this article up to WIKI standards. We will see. Give me a couple days to see what I can drag up please. I may change my vote if no one can find anything more.Redddbaron (talk) 05:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok I looked up what HMI is doing now. I found several sources of programs they are running. I changed the POV of one paragraph to a neutral POV and added a new paragraph. The history of the company doesn't really interest me. Only the notability of the programs they are running now. I'll let the people better suited to looking up NGO corporate histories try and find non primary sourced references for that.Redddbaron (talk) 09:17, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Edits
I removed these from the external links section, because they are not HMI and are probably inappropriate.
 * Africa Centre for Holistic Management
 * Managing Wholes
 * Whole New Concepts LLC Redddbaron (talk) 16:38, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I added this to the about section.
 * On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 a PBS documentary called First Millimeter: Healing The Earth aired on the work HMI was doing around the world.

It should show a non primary POV (although not necessarily neutral) and also help establish some notability.Redddbaron (talk) 17:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I added this to the grants section with book reference (Africa: Continent of Economic Opportunities page 165)
 * In 2005 HMI was awarded a substantial grant from USAID for work in Africa. Redddbaron (talk) 18:11, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Clean-up
Am undertaking a bit of a clean-up while this is at AFD. I've removed a couple of fairly valueless references and am moving some here. These are references which might be of some value in either making a case for notability or as citations for various things. Some were included in the article but referenced unrelated things or were duplicates:


 * Ended up using that one

I'll add notes as I go to track what I've done. Stalwart 111  03:21, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Note - have changed some of the sourcing. Where possible, I've cited independent sources for various claims. I think most of the claims supported by non-independent sources are fairly non-controversial like launch dates and previous names. I can't see there being a problem using non-independent sources for that. Claims about what the organisation does and where and how should be sourced and I am working on adding independent sources for those. Stalwart 111  03:54, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment
How do we incorporate this fact sheet? Redddbaron (talk • contribs) 06:44, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think we do. It would seem to suffer from the same problems as some of the existing sources - that is, it's a Government document that just list HMI in a group of other organisations. We can't really draw from that passing mention anything about what the organisation does or even what it is doing in relation to that program. What we need are sources that give neutral coverage to the organisation and its activities. Government fact sheets/MOUs often aren't great for that sort of thing. Stalwart 111  07:48, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

"This is now a regional office of HMI" was added with a 2009 reference. (before the split) It should probably be removed unless a reference AFTER the split can be found. ie 2010 or laterRedddbaron (talk) 17:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've changed the wording. Sionk (talk) 17:47, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Looks better. I also had originally posted 2 references for the PBS documentary, the other reference was taken off in clean-up. There is even a third, but the third is a primary source I didn't post for the reason that it was a primary source. Basically I mined a primary source for the other two. So how to proceed? It is spelled out best in the primary...with the problem that it is a primary source obviously. The next best is the link to the short clip from the documentary, which doesn't mention anything about it being a PBS documentary that aired, only shows the land under management of HMI and the people involved and mentions using holistic management. Then the third, which is the only one left is the reference to it being a PBS doc that actually aired. So all three references individually have issues documenting the full statement for various reasons, but all 3 together document the truth of the statement. Redddbaron (talk) 18:24, 23 April 2013 (UTC) PS http://santafeproductions.com/?p=178 Redddbaron (talk) 18:44, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well exactly. A documentary that mentions holistic management is not a documentary about HMI. It doesn't serve any purpose in this article. Sionk (talk) 19:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well the next reference that was removed does say, "Highlighting effective solutions to at least one part of global warming, HEALING THE EARTH travels sites around the world where the use of integrated “holistic” approaches to land management has resulted in the dramatic revitalization of the previously dying land." And the whole documentary is about HMI. 100% of all the land in the documentary was healed by either HMI directly, or by a "steward" after learning how from a HMI educator. I don't understand why if the American Cancer Society (NGO) can use MULTIPLE primary sources about their mission of healing people from cancer and nobody blinks an eye, but if Holistic Management International (NGO) underwrites an educational documentary about their mission to heal the land, complete with scientific experts and case studies and the documentary is seen on PBS, it somehow is not allowed to mention it on Wikipedia? Redddbaron (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Other stuff exists is not a valid argument, generally. HMI has the same reach, impact, support, validity and recognition as the American Cancer Society? Ho-hum.  Captain Screebo Parley! 22:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The point isn't how "far reaching" both NGO's are, or even their notability in any way. The point was the reference section is far far worse than the reference section here. Apparently if you already know the name of a NGO, good references are not needed? But if you might actually learn something new from a wiki article that has far far far better references (though not perfect), that needs removed? All anybody would have to do is simply watch the documentary and they would see the statement is the truth Redddbaron (talk) 00:18, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This article is about HMI, not holistic management. If the "whole documentary is about HMI", why doesn't the synopsis mention HMI even once? As we've discovered during the AfD discussion, there is a separate article for information about Holistic management. Sionk (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL I am not drawing my own conclusions. Watch the film, heck, even watch the trailers. They are on YouTube. Can't use YouTube as a source, but you can at least figure out that it is a documentary about the work HMI is doing. Key words "the work they are doing" not any specific info about administrative workings of HMI. Redddbaron (talk) 22:30, 23 April 2013 (UTC) PS I know full well the article on Holistic management. I wrote it! It was deleted, I got it userfied, and I wrote the whole thing. Then I worked with other kind editors to tweek it into a better article. Which I am trying to do here too. Work with other helpful editors to make the article better. I may be naive, but I thought that was the goal of Wiki? Improve the quality of the information found here? Redddbaron (talk) 22:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure if I can clear this up at all, but the one reference I removed (relating to the PBS documentary; I removed several others) was this one:
 * I removed it because it was basically a synopsis provided by the company that produced it - a press release in essence. That didn't seem particularly independent, nor did it provide much about the film that wasn't already included in the KQED reference. I have no idea what the documentary says about HMI itself but it's obviously about holistic management and focuses on Zimbabwe where HMI has obviously done a fair bit of work so the HMI coverage claim seemed credible to me. Obviously it would be better if we had a better source (a review of the documentary or some such thing that specifically mentions HMI) so if such sources exist we should try to include them. Stalwart 111  23:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * They exist, but all I found so far are published by HMI. Which means they are not usable because it would be HMI promoting itself. Since obviously the film is about HMI and a review by HMI of a documentary about HMI would break the rules about NPOV. I'll keep looking for another review though. Redddbaron (talk) 04:01, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * http://slowfoodsouthbay.org/past_events.htm Redddbaron (talk) 02:05, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * http://grist.org/article/the-climate-solution-got-cows/ Redddbaron (talk) 02:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * http://grist.org/article/the-climate-solution-got-cows/ Redddbaron (talk) 02:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

New Vote?
I guess the thing is to ask if it has reached a level of quality that it no longer needs deleted? Redddbaron (talk) 21:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The question is really about notability not quality because the latter can always be fixed. Best just to let the AFD run its course, though in this case it has run for 10 days which is longer than the usual 7. So I've asked admins to consider closing it, but we still have to wait for the close. Stalwart 111  23:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Key people
While Allan Savory and Jody Butterfield were original founders, they left in 2009. Key people now include Peter Holter, Ann Adams, Frank Aragona, Matt Parrack, Sandy Langelier — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.65.70 (talk) 16:10, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

This suggestion was made by me and inadvertently unsigned

69.247.65.70 (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Peter Holter, CEO - HMI Holistic Management International

Updates
HMI Awarded $537,101 grant to train Beginning Women Farmers in the Northeast and Texas August 31, 2012

Based upon the success of our Beginning Farmers & Ranchers: Women in the Northeast program, the USDA NIFA Beginning Farmer & Rancher Development Program (BFRDP) is awarding us a grant to continue our work in the Northeast and expand the program to Texas. This 3-year grant, “Growing Successful Transitions with Beginning Women Farmer Programs in the Northeast and Texas, #2012-49400-19673,” will result in 360 beginning women farmers trained in whole farm planning and drafting a whole farm plan. The grant will continue to build further capacity in the Northeast and pilot a project in Austin, Texas where there is demand among beginning women farmers. HMI’s Holistic Management® whole farm/ranch planning curriculum focuses on business planning skills, time management, soil fertility management, and profitable sustainable livestock and crop farming practices.

HMI's non-profit mission is to educate people to manage land for a sustainable future. The organization believes people count, healthy land is essential, and money matters.

Thank you 69.247.65.70 (talk) 23:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC) Peter Holter, CEO HMI - Holistic Management International


 * Peter I can add that info if you provide a third party source? Redddbaron (talk) 23:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you - please let me know more specifically what you need in the way of verification and i can get it....69.247.65.70 ([[User talk:69.247.6

http://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/news/2012/07/13/holistic-management-to-train-360-women.html

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/holistic-management-international-hmi-awarded-537101-grant-to-train-beginning-women-farmers-162228395.html

NIFA Press Release… http://www.csrees.usda.gov/newsroom/newsletters/pdfs/07_09_12_nifa_news.pdf 5.70|talk]]) 18:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)Peter 69.247.65.70 (talk) 17:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)Peter Holter
 * Peter, I used 2 of the 3 sources, one seems to be just a press release made by HMI and doesn't fit WIKI policies against self promotion. The other 2 seem to be good sources. The article seems to be approaching the level of proven reliable secondary sources to establish notability. Notability (organizations and companies) Technically it has met every criteria listed, "significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources." with the only grey area being the definition of "significant". It does say "The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources should be cited to establish notability" and that is what I tried to do. So I think the article is meeting minimum requirements, which is why the deletion tag is gone. Does HMI still do international work? Are there any more secondary sources for that? If so that would help in removing the tag from the article. Redddbaron (talk) 13:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you - yes we continue to work internationally primarily through our network of 50 Certified Educators worldwide, appreciate your interest and will continue to provide sourced material to you. Peter69.247.65.70 (talk) 22:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)