Talk:Hollow Horn Bear

Move to talk
Moving this to talk, can be replaced with sourced. It's messing with my understanding of the chronology. G M G talk   17:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

For later I guess


This is... someone playing the character? This is supposed to be almost six months after his death? G M G talk   17:59, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Oration
"Hollow Horn Bear is long with the 'white man's game,' as he calls the art of conversation. In truth, he has most white men lashed securely to the bowsprit and the sinking head on, when it comes to the art of the talk. He comes every once in a while to talk a few hundred thousand out of the stony-ghearted bureau of Indian affairs."

G M G talk   21:07, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Shift?
"After the uprising of 1889 and 1890, in which Sitting Bull and scores of other notable Indians were killed at the battle of Wounded Knee in South Dakota, Hollow Horn Bear became a good Indian and from that time forward was one of the leading influences for good and prosperity among his people on the Rosebud reservation." 

Not clear how reliable this contemporary source is, but seems to jive with modern sources somewhat as far as general shift in attitude/approach. This is talking about c. 1890 though, which is well before conversion to Catholicism, around the time of negotiations with Crook. Not clear what may have precipitated the shift. May have been much more gradual than this source makes it out to be. G M G talk   16:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Son
Son asks to be in 1917 inauguration. G M G talk   16:23, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

File:Hollow Horn Bear LCCN 2016858434 (2) (cropped).jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Hollow Horn Bear LCCN 2016858434 (2) (cropped).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on August 2, 2018. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-08-02. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 03:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Was he on a $5 bill?
Seeing the above item, which currently says "He was featured on a 1922 postage stamp and on the five-dollar bill", I was surprised, because I didn't know that any Native Americans / Indians had appeared on US paper money. I googled for it and found a number of pages (for example, this page) saying that there was only one such bill: this one.

And that source and Wikipedia agree that that's Running Antelope on the $5 bill, not Hollow Horn Bear.

This page does mention Hollow Horn Bear when talking about the bill, but what it says is that someone who may have been Hollow Horn Bear appeared on the $2.50 and $5 coins, not on any bill.

However, the article does cite a source saying that Hollow Horn Bear was on the $5 bill. I have therefore flagged the statement as "dubious".

I am no expert on the history of paper money in the US or anywhere else, and that's all I have to say about this. I hope someone else can provide either some sort of reference to the actual relevant $5 bill, or if it is an error, remove it. --76.69.47.228 (talk) 09:06, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * There are lots of sources which say he was on the five dollar bill, as do period newspapers, one of which is already quoted in the article. The first source you link to appears to be an amateur blog, and the second is apparently a generic website of people trying to sell coins. Neither appear to be high quality sources of the type that should be preferred over multiple published books.
 * As is already pointed out in the footnote in the article, according to the artist themselves they intended to portray a "type" and not an individual, and likely based their "type" on multiple people as they had already done portraits of many names of the day. It therefore seems likely that the image did not begin as Hollow Horn Bear, but rather became Hollow Horn Bear because of his widespread popularity. It may have later "become" someone else as Hollow Horn Bear fell into relative obscurity in the late 20th Century. But without high quality sources definitively tracing that evolution, it's mostly just conjecture and original research, and all we can really do is defer to the sources on who was, and who wasn't, and when there were where.  G M G  talk  11:41, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that your search produces "lots of sources", but if you substitute "Running Antelope" for "Hollow Horn Bear", you get a similar number of them. Unless they're talking about two different $5 bills, I believe this means that the tag as "dubious" is justified.  And I wish there was a "high quality source" that would settle the question. --76.69.47.228 (talk) 08:34, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm. As do I. Still looking, preferably for a numismatic publication. I also left a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics to see if anyone more familiar can weigh in here. If we can't find a definitive source that reconciles the apparently conflicting sources, we may just need to add a comparatively lengthy explanation in the article itself detailing the disagreement among sources.  G M G  talk  13:52, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Alright, well, they definitely appear to be talking about the same five dollar bill. In fact it seems to be the only five dollar bill they could possibly be talking about. The sources just disagree on who the image is based on. Moreover, although there are definitely sources that disagree, I've not found any sources that actually address the disagreement among the sources. So pending further research, I've just rewritten the article to say essentially "some sources say this, and some sources say that," which may be the best we can really do.  G M G  talk  15:08, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I think that addresses my point adequately until something more definitive is found. But now the Running Antelope article needs similar changes. I don't think I'm inclined to do it myself. --76.69.47.228 (talk) 02:57, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The Running Antelope article probably needs nuked and completely rewritten actually, since it doesn't really cite any sources for anything. I'll put it on my to do list.  G M G  talk  10:25, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * There are several issues of The Numismatist that discuss Hollow Horn Bear. If someone will send me an email, I will reply with screenshots of the relevant pages. The February 1909 issue states that the 1899 Silver Certificate portrait is "said to be" Hollow Horn Bear, an article in the November 2017 issue says definitively that he was the model for the gold coins.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:33, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Email sent. I did find online forums talking about the gold coin article, but hadn't found it. Thanks for your input.  G M G  talk  15:45, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Return of shirt by German Museum
If it can be acertained completly - perhaps there is more news Stateside, we could include this information. --Wuselig (talk) 16:52, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I've added it; there is reliable coverage in US sources. Powerful news! Parkwells (talk) 15:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)