Talk:Holly River State Park

Events
None of the events listed in the "events" section are discussed in reliable secondary sources. Mere events listings on the websites or in the newsletters of the organizations hosting those events are not enough to keep the content in an encyclopedia article about the park. Thus I'll remove that section again. Huon (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * wrong there are some relaiable secondary sources. I was trying to insert them when you deleted this section again. All sources will be reliable once the changes are made to the links. 50.110.91.140 (talk) 15:52, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to write a summary of what reliable independent sources say about events at the park. What I removed didn't cite any such sources. Huon (talk) 18:56, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I have such sources at my disposal and will use them. 50.110.91.140 (talk) 20:25, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I also have concerns about what was listed in the Events section. Some of the citations that were provided were incomplete. None of the content really discussed why the events were noteworthy. All of the material seemed like advertising and not really appropriate for an encyclopedia. Bitmapped (talk) 04:23, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know whats goton over you two, but the sources that were listed were independent, especily the newsletters because they are written by a third party and now you should be able to acess them. 19:30, 17 January 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.110.91.140 (talk)
 * Are there newspaper articles about these events? Those would generally be considered reliable secondary sources. Bitmapped (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The events sections has been completely rewritten to include reliable sources and include new links to the original sources. 184.15.245.136 (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No, you didn't fix the citation issues. The Irish road bowling section cites the same website as when it was first removed. This isn't a third party reliable source.Bitmapped (talk) 18:59, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Check the urls, one of them was different from when it was originally written.184.15.245.136 (talk) 23:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It's the same website - http://www.wvirishroadbowling.com/. One of the URLs, http://www.wvirishroadbowling.com/index.html, is the exact same as what was removed in January . You changed the other from a 2014 schedule to a 2017 schedule on the same website. These are not third party sources, these are still pages for the organization holding the event. You still haven't provided anything that shows why this event at Holly River is noteworthy when there appear to be 20 other road bowling events by the same organization this year. Wikipedia is not an event calendar. If people want to know about what's happening at Holly River State Park, they should go to Holly Ri seriousver State Park's website. Bitmapped (talk) 01:08, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

{{}od}I have removed the road bowling which not only wasn't based on secondary sources; the content wasn't even supported by the primary sources. Not every thing that someone does in the park and posts on their website is worthy of mention. While I was at it I also removed the tourism website, for obvious reasons. Huon (talk) 21:00, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I have found two other sources with the exact same information which can be used for the purpose of this article. The section on the Holly RIver festival needs some expansion. 184.15.59.14 (talk) 22:26, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * What are these other sources? How do they show the Irish road bowling at Holly River is noteworthy? As Huon has said, not every event that occurs is appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia article. What are your proposed edits to the Holly River Festival section? Bitmapped (talk) 00:08, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * A far as the Irish road bowling is conerned I had stumbled upon a news article containing enough information to restore it. 184.15.58.28 (talk) 07:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * How about presenting the source here so others can take a look? Huon (talk) 07:59, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * http://www.visitwebsterwv.com/2015/11/13/irish-road-bowling-draws-interest-in-webster-county/184.15.58.28 (talk) 08:02, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * That's not a news article. It's the Webster County tourism office promoting an event. Huon (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with Huon. It's not an appropriate source and doesn't prove notability. Bitmapped (talk) 17:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Considering that you put theme Bitmapped and thaey remain untoched un til now, then that leads me to belive there reliable. 19:10, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * .... and the question should have been addressed at the time they were inserted, not after the fact. 184.15.188.110 (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5Yr7moGpC?url=http://www.wvstateparks.com/recreation/WVSP_facilities_grid.PDF to http://www.wvstateparks.com/recreation/WVSP_facilities_grid.PDF
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060720230618/http://www.cedwvu.org/programs/realchoice/recreation/ to http://www.cedwvu.org/programs/realchoice/recreation/

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Avoiding copyright issues
I've noticed that much of the text that was previously added to this article was taken directly from the Holly River State Park website at. This is an illegal violation of WVDNR copyrights. I've tried to rephrase or remove the issues I noticed but it's important that any further additions be written new, from scratch, rather than copied-and-pasted as has happened before. Please see WP:CV if you have any questions about copyright policies on Wikipedia. Bitmapped (talk) 01:31, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Holly River State Park Foundation
I disagree with creating a separate section for the Holly River State Park Foundation in this article. As the IP user's text mentions, similar foundations were planned for each West Virginia state park. The text as included doesn't provide useful information to the user that couldn't be delivered with a passing mention in the text where appropriate and it doesn't address any particular notability of the organization. The Foundation section also needs a reliable source other than a book by one of its cofounders. Bitmapped (talk) 22:19, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I its not a good idea because of formatting issues pertaining to the festival subsection, also the book is about the park itself.50.110.108.128 (talk) 23:38, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Your comment isn't intelligible. What's not a good idea? The book being about the park isn't an issue, but its author not being a secondary source for the information is. Bitmapped (talk) 00:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)f
 * when you deleted the section, you inadvertently move a subsection into another section..50.110.108.128 (talk) 00:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Events notability and reliable source claims misleading
In January, there was some event notability and reliable source issues addressed which were misleading, mainly the Irish Road Bowling. These issues led to the events section being completely deleted. The editor involved in the deletion failed to look at other sources to replace them and claimed that existing sources weren't reliable even though they were from reliable third-party sources. These claims need to stop. 184.15.188.110 (talk) 17:22, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * in fact there is a replacement for the affected sources. 184.15.188.110 (talk) 17:25, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * What are your proposed replacement sources? Let's see them so they can be discussed. Bitmapped (talk) 19:01, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * https://www.wvdnr.gov/wwvmagazine/Archive/Batch2010/2010%20-%2010%20October.pdf
 * ..and the source that you provided before this ever started are still reliable.. 184.15.188.110 (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Wonderful West Virginia magazine is published by the West Virginia Division of Natural Resources, the same agency that operates the park. By definition, it's not a third party source. If the Irish road bowling event is truly notable, you should be able to find a reliable third party source writing about it. As for the other "previous sources" you reference, please specifically list the individual sources to which you are referring. Bitmapped (talk) 00:08, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * No the Park system is under the Department of Parks and Recreation, but in my better judgment it can be used as a source as well as the WVIRBA, which you have cited as a source. 184.15.188.110 (talk) 09:43, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * .... and the webster co tourism sites too. 184.15.188.110 (talk) 14:11, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * As explained at, West Virginia state parks are operated by the Parks and Recreation Section of the Division of Natural Resources. A magazine published by WVDNR is not a third party source when speaking about parks operated by a unit of WVDNR. The WVIRBA and Webster County Tourism sites have already been addressed, with the majority consensus being that they are not reliable sources to use. Bitmapped (talk) 03:42, 2 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I have declined a third opinion request presented by 184.15.188.110. This issue goes back further than this section, so there are more than two users involved. Pinging who was the original remover of the content. If that is unsuccessful, I recommend WP:DR, but not until all editors have had a chance to comment. Nihlus 16:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think the proposed source can be considered an independent source about activities at the state park. It's published by a state agency, and the author works for the WV Department of Commerce in their PR department. There is no independence whatsoever here, they're promoting West Virginia's attractions. Huon (talk) 19:12, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * But they can be used on themselves per WP:SELFSOURCE. 184.15.48.187 (talk) 09:05, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The self-published sources don't demonstrate notability. An organization promoting its own event, or an event in the area in which they are supposed to promote tourism, is inherently self-serving. Like I've said before, if the event is truly notable and worthy of inclusion, you should be able to find citations from reliable third party sources for it. Bitmapped (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, self-published sources should not be used for promotional content. That would be precisely what we'd be doing here. Huon (talk) 16:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)