Talk:Holocaust survivors

Possibly Overlapping Articles
To the person working on this article: you will need to really differentiate it from the much more established Sh'erit ha-Pletah, or otherwise it will be an unnecessary duplicate. You could also consider adding your additional knowledge of the matter as a new section at Sh'erit ha-Pletah. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 21:01, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Undersourced lead
Chefallen, great additions to the lead, but not a single source?! This might have it all taken out, sooner or later. That's wasted time & effort for you, and a loss to WP. So please... Thanks. Arminden (talk) 06:50, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Arminden, understood. I guess I put the cart before the horse... I'm working on the content and the sources that will substantiate the lead and will try and publish them expeditiously. Chefallen (talk) 15:13, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Gross anti-Semitic photo
I am new to Wikipedia editing, can someone please remove the photo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciotogist (talk • contribs) 20:44, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Which photo? 205.201.21.118 (talk) 01:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Jewish and non-Jewish Holocaust surviviors
The current lead paragraph of the article reads as follows:

"Holocaust survivors are people who survived the persecution and attempted annihilation of the Jews by Nazi Germany and its allies in Europe and North Africa during the Holocaust both before and during World War II, from the rise of the Nazi Party to power in Germany in 1933 until the defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945. More broadly speaking, the term includes anyone who was discriminated against, displaced or persecuted as a result of the policies and actions of the Nazis and their allies and, in addition to Jews who were uniquely targeted for complete annihilation, it includes those who were persecuted as a result of the Nazis' racial theories, such as the Romani people and Slavs, along with others who were seen as "undesirables" such as homosexuals, or for political reasons, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Communists."

To me, this suggests a far wider reading of the term Holocaust survivor than is conventionally accepted and almost WP:FRINGE. It is true that there is some debate about whether the term Holocaust should include the treatment of Poles, Soviet POWs, Christian dissenters, Homosexuals, etc. but the currently suggested definition seems almost WP:FRINGE. Rather than removing it, since the subject is clearly controversial, I wondered if a consensus could be built here to rephrase it along these lines which reflects my reading of the debates:

"The term Holocaust survivor refers to people who survived the Holocaust which is conventionally defined as the persecution and attempted annihilation of the Jews by Nazi Germany and its Allies in World War II. There is no universally accepted definition of what constitutes a Holocaust survivor and the term has been applied variously to Jews who survived the war in German-occupied Europe and to those who fled into Allied or neutral countries before the outbreak of war. In some cases, it has been applied to non-Jews who also experienced collective persecution under the Nazi regime."

Thoughts? —Brigade Piron (talk) 18:58, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , . —Brigade Piron (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Support' the new version: considerably improved. However, it would be best to include references for the definition. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  22:43, 27 November 2020 (UTC)


 * In principle, I agree that the term Holocaust survivor most commonly applies to Jewish survivors. However, it's not fringe when other groups, such as the Roma and male homosexuals are also recognized as such, by for example, the USHMM. Note that the definition of Holocaust survivor is addressed in more detail in the Definition section of the article and we should take what it says in the body of the article into account in the lede. However, the distinction indeed may be too subtle in this introduction and so I have a few notes on your proposed change, and a suggested re-write below, based on your proposal:


 * I think we should stick with the opening phrase Holocaust survivors are people ... as this is an article about a group of people.
 * I assume you inadvertently linked "Allies" as in "Nazi Germany and its Allies" to the Allies who fought Nazi Germany rather than "Nazi Germany and its allies", linked to the Axis powers, who were Nazi Germany's allies (lower case).
 * The word conventional is not correct in "is conventionally defined as...". The Holocaust is established fact and not merely a "conventional" definition.
 * It is appropriate to mention the geographical range of an event in an introduction to a topic; presumably most readers will have some idea, but this provides a frame of reference for all. I would leave that in.
 * The definition of Jews as survivors who fled to Allied or neutral countries also includes those who fled during the war, not just before it (e.g., from Poland to the USSR, 1939-1941 and later, as well as others, as detailed in the Definition section of the article).
 * I think we should note that the term has evolved over time, as described in the Definition section, especially if we aren't going to mention the others specifically.


 * As such, I propose a re-write along these lines:

"Holocaust survivors are people who survived the Holocaust, defined as the persecution and attempted annihilation of the Jews by Nazi Germany and its allies before and during World War II in Europe and North Africa. There is no universally accepted definition of the term and it has been applied variously to Jews who survived the war in German-occupied Europe or territories controlled by Nazi Germany's allies, as well as to those who fled to Allied or neutral countries before or during the war. In some cases, non-Jews who also experienced collective persecution under the Nazi regime are also considered Holocaust survivors and the definition has evolved over time."


 * --Chefallen (talk) 05:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks for this. I agree with most of what you have said and I think your suggested paragraph would be fine. I would note though -
 * The term Holocaust is necessarily an umbrella term which covers part of the complex overlapping genocidal killing and discrimination in German-occupied Europe. I am aware that some scholars do provide a much more expansive definition to the Holocaust which is why I suggested "conventionally". This is only to explain my position.
 * There does seem to be some dispute about whether refugees who left German-occupied Europe count as Holocaust survivors (see this summary which is quite good). I think your suggested text covers this aspect reasonably, though.
 * Do you want to insert the text yourself? —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:49, 29 November 2020 (UTC)


 * , thank you, I appreciate your notes above, and acknowledge that some aspects can be harder to define in very cut-and-dried ways; however, since we are in agreement that the last rewritten paragraph above is satisfactory for the introduction, I will go ahead and update it. --Chefallen (talk) 21:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * But before we make the update, I think it's best practice to wait a few more days in case any other editors wish to comment. --21:22, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * In the absence of other comments, I have added the text. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:14, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Merging "In hiding and partisans" and "In collaborationist regimes and occupied countries"
My rationale for merging these two sections is that they entirely overlap. Although there may have been a tiny number of exceptions for politically valuable hostages, I have not heard of any examples of Jews surving the Holocaust in German-occupied Europe except in "hiding" - either literally or with the aid of false papers provided by resistance or criminal groups. At the moment, the "In collaborationist regimes..." section notes: "Some Jews everywhere, but particularly in Belgium, France, Holland, Hungary and Italy, survived because the Germans and their collaborators did not manage to complete the deportations and mass-murder before Allied forces arrived. In Italy and France, about three quarters of the pre-war Jewish population survived, and in Belgium, about half survived, while in Holland, only about one in five of the pre-war Jewish population survived, and in Greece, Hungary, Slovakia and Yugoslavia, most of the Jews were murdered. In Hungary, for example, about one-third of the original Jewish population survived because liberation came before the Nazis could completely carry out their plans for the deportation and annihilation of the entire population."

The implication is that these people survived for purely administrative reasons which is clearly untrue or, at least, accountable for only a tiny number of people liberated in prisons or transit camps. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * , I see this as two distinct groups of survivors:


 * 1) "In collaborationist regimes and occupied countries" Jews who survived, not in hiding, but because the collaborationist regimes refused or ceased to cooperate with the Germans in carrying out plans to deport and murder the Jews, or in occupied areas, because Allied forces arrived, or the war ended before the Germans were able to complete the annihilation of the Jewish population, as described in the section.
 * 2) "In hiding and partisans" are those who survived throughout German-occupied Europe, and including Germany itself, because they hid, or more often were hidden by non-Jews. The cited source states "...Other Jews all over Europe escaped deportations altogether because they were sheltered by individual non-Jews..." (Gilbert, p. 229). Of course, the numbers who survived in hiding were small, hundreds only in Germany, and few thousands in Poland and France, for example (Gilbert, p. 230), but not insignificant numbers.  Jewish partisans, mostly in forests in eastern Europe, especially Belorussia and the Ukraine and later Lithuania, numbered only in the thousands altogether, and perhaps this is a point that needs to be better noted and sourced. --Chefallen (talk) 03:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I do not agree with this at all. There is a significant historical debate about the different survival rates in different parts of Europe. My understanding is that the consensus is generally that it reflects multiple facts which, as well as local assistance and obstruction, include external considerations like the geographic and urban concentration of pre-war Jewish populations. The difference in the zeal and organisational nature of occupation regimes in Belgium and the Netherlands, for example, partly explains the widely differing rates of survival. You can obviously make the case for special circumstances in particular countries - Denmark or Hungary for example - but I don't think it is fair to say that this represents a conceptual difference between different types of regime. It hardly applies to Croatia or Slovakia, for example.
 * The comment that "in occupied areas, because Allied forces arrived, or the war ended before the Germans were able to complete the annihilation of the Jewish population" certainly does not reflect my understanding of the period and I have never seen it argued before. Most of the Jews actually deported in Western Europe had already been killed by the end of 1942 several years before the arrival of Allied troops. Ditto in Poland and the Soviet Union. —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:02, 6 December 2020 (UTC)


 * So are you saying that you are not objecting to the different survival rates stated for the various countries but rather to the reasons given for them? If so, I agree that there are many different circumstances for the various survival rates in each place and we would either need to go into a lot more detail here or perhaps agree on some kind of summary at the beginning of the section stating that there were various reasons and which significant one's there were (not covered in the concentration camp or refugee sections) and not trying to specify reasons by country in the text that follows.--Chefallen (talk) 00:05, 7 December 2020 (UTC)


 * If I've correctly understood the issue you are raising, let me know if the following proposed text would be a satisfactory summary of the two sections in questions, or what you might like to see instead:


 * Other Jews throughout Europe survived because the Germans and their collaborators did not manage to complete the deportations and mass-murder before Allied forces arrived, or the collaborationist regimes were overthrown, or those regimes decided not to, or refused from the outset, to cooperate with the Nazi's plans. Thus, for example, in western Europe, about three quarters of the pre-war Jewish population survived the Holocaust in Italy and France, about half survived in Belgium, while only about one in five of the pre-war Jewish population survived in the Netherlands. In eastern and south-eastern Europe, almost three-quarters of the country's Jews survived in Bulgaria, about 60 % in Romania and only about one-third of the Jewish population survived in Hungary. In Greece, Slovakia and Yugoslavia, there were relatively few survivors.


 * Throughout Europe, a few thousand Jews also survived in hiding, or with false papers posing as non-Jews, hidden or assisted by non-Jews who risked their lives to rescue Jews individually or in small groups. Several thousand Jews also survived by hiding in dense forests in Eastern Europe, and as Jewish partisans actively resisted the Nazis as well as protecting other escapees, and, in some instances, working with non-Jewish partisans groups to fight against the German invaders.

I think this is a big improvement. It would also leave us with a much clearer distinction between (i) concentration camp survivors, (ii) survivors in Europe and (iii) refugees. —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:54, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

GULAG
This statement:
 * "After the German invasion of the Soviet Union, more than a million Soviet Jews fled eastward into the interior. The Soviet authorities imprisoned many refugees and deportees in the Gulag system in the Urals, Soviet Central Asia or Siberia, where they endured forced labor, extreme conditions, hunger and disease. Nonetheless, most managed to survive, despite the harsh circumstances."

must be carefully checked. That contradicts to everything what I know about the history of WWII. During WWII, Soviet authorities did not target Jews specifically (they started to do so only in 1952, just before Stalin's death). I am checking the sources (refs 6,7, 16, 17), and it seems they do not support this claim. World: My Life and Times). The source does say Jews (as well as other population of annexed Polish territories) were forced to become Soviet citizens, but it says that many of them were deported, but it does not say they were imprisoned in Gulag. The author concludes:
 * the ref 6 ("Seeking Relative Safety he Flight of Polish Jews to the East in the Autumn of 1939") mentions GULAG only once, in the reference to the book by Victor Zarnowitz (Fleeing the Nazis, Surviving the Gulag, and Arriving in the Free
 * "Although no one could have foreseen it in the autumn of 1939, the choice of staying or leaving turned out to be a choice between death and life."

which implies that there WAS a choice between staying and fleeing (there was no wholesale deportation), and that survival rate of those who moved (or had been moved) the the East was incomparable with the rate of those who stayed. My conclusion is that this source does not support the article's statement.
 * the ref 7 ("How the Definition of Holocaust Survivor Has Changed Since the End of World War II") tells a story of one Jewish family. It says:
 * "''In June 1940 alone, around 70,000 Jews—mostly refugees who rejected Soviet citizenship—were deported to the Soviet interior. Others were pressured to “evacuate” east as more refugees of Nazi violence flooded Soviet territories in Eastern Europe.
 * ''Deportees labored in the Soviet penalty system of the gulag, working in mines, farms and factories in the Urals, northern Kazakhstan and as far as Siberia. They endured extreme conditions, starvation and disease. The Burstyns ended up in one of these camps in the Urals, spending 13 months there."

This source supports the claim that some Jews (actually, 70,000) were deported. With regard to imprisonment in Gulag, that is something that needs additional confirmation: it is not clear if the author tells about Gulag camps or about labour settlements (which is not the same, some non-experts do not discriminate between these two). According to what I know from specialized sources, only convicted persons were imprisoned in Gulag proper. I would say, this source needs additional verification per WP:REDFLAG.
 * the ref 16 ("Escape from German-Occupied Europe") says: " While Soviet authorities deported tens of thousands of Jews to Siberia, central Asia, and other remote areas in the interior of the Soviet Union, most of them managed to survive." That is a pretty non-controversial statement, but it has nothing in common with the article's text. My conclusion: this source does not support the text.
 * the ref 17 ("The Fate of the Jews Across Europe") does not mention Gulag either. It says "Only about 10% of Polish Jewry survived the Holocaust, the majority in the Soviet Union." It does not support the text.

I am going to remove the statement: "After the German invasion of the Soviet Union, more than a million Soviet Jews fled eastward into the interior. The Soviet authorities imprisoned many refugees and deportees ..." because the cited sources do not support it. Some of them say nothing about deportation or forced labour, whereas others tell about the fate of some Jews who were deported after Soviet annexation of Eastern Poland, not after the German attack of the USSR. With regard to the rest, I am going to bring it in accordance with what the cited references say. Paul Siebert (talk) 19:27, 14 April 2023 (UTC)