Talk:Holocaust victims

Citation for 5.7 million Soviet civilans figure does not list that figure?
In the table "Classes of Holocaust victims", the entry "Soviet civilians" gives a figure of "5.7 million (excl. 1.3 million Jews)" citing https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution. But that page (as of 13 October, eg. http://web.archive.org/web/20231010071124/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution) does not seem to give that figure, or any figure, for a number of Soviet civilians. (It does list 3.3 million Soviet POWs.) Can the citation be fixed, or another one found? If no citation can be found, should the figure be removed? Daekharel (talk) 13:32, 13 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Please refer to this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1071011/holocaust-nazi-persecution-victims-wwii/
 * It is clearly where the numbers came from, and prior to the edits by User:Tpbradbury on 25 October 2023 what the consensus on the page reflected. Claiming only 4.5 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians died is Holocaust denial, and erasing any mention of the fact that 1.3 million of the 6 million Jews were Soviet citizens is historical revisionism. The figures need to be corrected and the source added as soon as possible. I would make the necessary changes myself but I do not have 500 edits. Patriotparty1776 (talk) 09:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * statisa.com isn't a reliable source wp:rsp: "Statista...should not be cited directly. It may be useful as a research tool to find sources..." Please provide a reliable source, Tom B (talk) 11:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20201130211526/https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
 * This is the source that Statista cites, as of December 2020, when the data was compiled. There has obviously been changes to the page since then, resulting in the discrepancy which started this thread. It clearly states "Soviet civilians | around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)." Please update the page with the information and source provided. Patriotparty1776 (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Definition and scope
I find this definition weird. The Holocaust is about the extermination of the Jews. You better find really good sources that define the term "Holocaust victims" (I see none in article). Otherwise the article title must be Victims of Nazi crimes. - Altenmann >talk 21:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)


 * You are correct that this is not the correct definition. In fact, it's quite wrong insofar as it includes "political beliefs."
 * The article as currently written is essentially a WP:POVFORK of The Holocaust - it lists different groups of Nazi victims and says what happened to them, and it's a POVFORK because it describes (in Wikivoice) all the victim groups as victims of the Holocaust, when WP:RSes do not describe them in that way. The worst example is the table at the top of the article.
 * What this article could be is a historiography article that explains the ongoing scholarly debate regarding Who are the victims of the Holocaust? This debate breaks down into three basic groups:
 * Most scholars hold the traditionalist view, that the Holocaust was limited to Jews, e.g. Waitman Wade Beorn, Paul R. Bartrop, Donald Bloxham, David Cesarani, John Connelly, Abraham and Hershel Edelheit, Jack Fischel, Günter Grau, Peter Hayes, Timothy P. Jackson, Alex J. Kay, Peter Longerich, Stephen D. Smith, and Dan Stone, among others.
 * Some scholars who argue for expansion of "Holocaust victims" to include certain non-Jews, though they do not all agree on which non-Jews should be included. For example:
 * Ian Hancock - Roma/Sinti
 * Samuel Totten - Roma/Sinti, disabled, LGBT
 * Charles King - Roma/Sinti, disabled, Slavs
 * Paul E. Wilson - Roma/Sinti, LGBT, Jehovah's Witnesses
 * Jonathan C. Friedman - Roma/Sinti, disabled, LGBT, Soviet POWs
 * Doris Bergen - Roma/Sinti, disabled, LGBT, Soviet POWs, Polish elites
 * John J. Michalczyk - Roma/Sinti, LGBT, Jehova's Witnesses, "and others"
 * Estelle Tarica - Roma/Sinti "and others"
 * Some scholars argue that the terms "Holocaust" and "Shoah" should be retired altogether, and we shouldn't differentiate between victim groups, for example Christian Gerlach and to some extent David Cesarani
 * There are some scholars who have mixed views or take a "both sides" approach, for example David M. Crowe, David Engel (historian), and A. Dirk Moses.
 * Alternatively, I'd be fine with moving this to Victims of Nazi crimes rather than having it be a historiography article. I guess until we figure this out, I've added the disputed tag to the article and linked it here. Levivich (talk) 23:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it is pretty clear that the article scope doesn’t reflect the academic consensus, which is either for Jews only, or Jews and Romani/Sinti. The inclusion of others constitutes a minority view, but I don’t think that we should be reflecting that minority view when determining scope for articles about the Holocaust. It should be mentioned, but excluded from the scope. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:25, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Consider that research in the past on this topic was limited in scope, however today we have much better picture of Nazi genocides. 220.107.189.119 (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Waitman Wade Beorn should be removed from your list of those embracing traditionalist viewpoints, as he offers the exact opposite view in a tweet and has no idea where you got the notion that he supports the idea that the Holocaust only refers to the murder of Jews. Barefootwriter (talk) 19:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This comment appears to be referring to this tweet specifically, in which Beorn writes I don't recall expressing that viewpoint in reply to 's comment. However, Beorn writes this on page 4 of The Holocaust in Eastern Europe (2018):
 * So I'm not sure that Beorn's comment is totally accurate. Malerisch (talk) 06:31, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yup, that's where I got the notion. Levivich (talk) 12:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This is the paragraph that comes before that. This is seems like a disingeuous use of a paragraph setting conventions (that seem designed to sidestep critique from traditionalists) to paint his views as other than they actually are.
 * Barefootwriter (talk) 16:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So... he says in his 2018 book that he's not using the term "Shoah," instead he's using "Holocaust" to refer "mainly" to the Nazi murder of Jews and "Nazi genocidal project" to refer to other victims of Nazis. And he's said the same thing in works other than the 2018 book (see below). Maybe his views have changed since 2020? Btw when Beorn asked you on Twitter what the citation was, you replied "'making shit up' I guess? lol." so I'd appreciate it if you told him what the actual citations are (Beorn 2014 p. 4, Beorn 2018 p. 4, Beorn 2020 p. 98 n. 1) cuz I am not making shit up. Levivich (talk) 18:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * For the record, Beorn also repeats this view on page 4 of Marching into Darkness (2014), so the 2018 book wasn't a one-off:
 * And Beorn also makes the same point on page 92 (Note 1) of Understanding and Teaching the Holocaust (2020). Malerisch (talk) 14:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No it wasn't. The historical record does not bear out that Jewish people were the sole victims of the holocaust. Other ethnic minorities, homosexuals, the handicapped, etc. were all rolled in and put in the same camps. Many of us have studied this subject for decades. A massive argument on who gets to have the Holocaust all to themselves and discount the identical suffering of millions of other people seems in very bad taste. 146.115.242.10 (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Suffering has nothing to do with the definition, all the more "the discount". Anyway, wikipedia is not a forum. In article talk pages we discuss article content, and the discussions must be based on references to reliable sources. - Altenmann >talk 16:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, many of us have studied this subject for decades. Did I miss any major 21st-century Holocaust scholars in my list above? Please tell me if so. Levivich (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems pretty comprehensive. Christopher Browning? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh man how did I forget Christopher Browning! Thanks for that. Happen to have a quote in my notes from another scholar talking about Browning's views on this:
 * So I would categorize Chris Browning as "Jews, Roma/Sinti, disabled, Slavs". Levivich (talk) 16:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm also missing Omer Bartov and Marion Kaplan, both of whom I'd put in the "unclear" category simply because I don't have any notes on them (they may have expressed an opinion on this, I just don't know it). Levivich (talk) 16:46, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Also Raul Hilberg and Martin Gilbert. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Gilbert I'd categorize as "Jews-only"; Hilberg I don't know. Levivich (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Add: this book by Bashir Bashir and Amos Goldberg: Levivich (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Just looked and there are 219 currently in Category:Historians of the Holocaust, and I think about 119 of them are 21st-century . Levivich (talk) 05:48, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Mss83 (talk) 03:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Good sources that define the term "Holocaust victims" will never be found as the definition of the term Holocaust (in itself both a variable and singular noun) is still contentious. Paul Mojzes in his book Balkan Genocides: Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in the Twentieth Century discusses this dilemma quite well. Extermination camps across occupied Europe were not segregated and victims of all religious denominations and races were exterminated in them. Having two separate articles Holocaust for Jews and Victims of Nazi crimes for others, separates victims into different categories and enters a dangerous territory as it could be perceived as marginalizing non-Jews. It has been 77 years since the end of World War Two and if scholars are still debating the term, then I am sure a consensus will not be made any time soon and as such, we should leave it as is. ElderZamzam (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's probably my tendency to lump things, but I tend to agree with this comment that we should have an article about "Victims of persecution(/democide/whatever better word) by Nazi Germany and collaborators", without distinction. Artoria2e5 🌉 06:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This article needs to be rewritten completely or renamed. The Holocaust article clearly gives the definition of the Holocaust to be the destruction of European Jews, yet this gives a contradictory description that the Holocaust includes all of the other groups as well. I believe Victims of Nazi Germany would be a better title, and a clarification that 6,000,000 Holocaust victims are included in the 11,000,000 death count. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 04:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Jewish people are not the only victim of the nazi regime. Many died from the Nazis in concentration camps,but when Russia was invaded a policy of starvation was implemented because sending Russians to camps wasn't as efficient as starving them. This hunger plan was implemented during the invasion of Russia which killed millions of civilians. Zionists employed the same hunger plan tactics in Israel and cut off food water and electricity to Gaza in 2023 it is a highly effective way to eliminate large populations. Despite the UNs explicitly saying food and water should be allowed into Gaza Israel implemented an unnecessarily complex sprocess for aid to enter Gaza refusing entry to all but a few aid lorries, this led to widespread malnutrition before Israel continued it's racist elimination of Palestinian. 2A04:204:2644:600:8AED:2E52:EB8A:1A85 (talk) 10:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Jewish people are not the only victim of the nazi regime. Many died from the Nazis in concentration camps,but when Russia was invaded a policy of starvation was implemented because sending Russians to camps wasn't as efficient as starving them. This hunger plan was implemented during the invasion of Russia which killed millions of civilians. Zionists employed the same hunger plan tactics in Israel and cut off food water and electricity to Gaza in 2023 it is a highly effective way to eliminate large populations. Despite the UNs explicitly saying food and water should be allowed into Gaza Israel implemented an unnecessarily complex sprocess for aid to enter Gaza refusing entry to all but a few aid lorries, this led to widespread malnutrition before Israel continued it's racist elimination of Palestinian. 2A04:204:2644:600:8AED:2E52:EB8A:1A85 (talk) 10:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

non-arbitrary break
Seems to me that the above discussion boils down to two distinct questions: Have I accurately summarized the discussion so far? Should we vote on A/B/C and 1-7 to see if we have consensus, and possibly ping participants? Levivich (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
 * First question: move-and-recreate or split?
 * A) Move-and-recreate: move this article ("Holocaust victims") to a new title (about non-Jews), and then recreate/rewrite "Holocaust victims" (about Jews) - this option moves the history of this article to the new article
 * B) Split: create a new article (about non-Jews), and move content about non-Jews from the current article "Holocaust victims" to the new article - this option keeps the history of this article at this article
 * C) Neither: always an option
 * Second question: what should the new article be called? Options supported so far:
 * 1. Victims of Nazi Germany
 * 2. Victims of the Axis powers and collaborators
 * 3. Victims of Axis states and its collaborators
 * 4. Victims of Nazi Germany and collaborators
 * 5. Victims of Nazi Germany and its collaborators
 * 6. Victims of Nazi persecution
 * 7. Groups targeted by Nazi persecution
 * Something else?


 * Question 1: B. But not in two articles but in three: Jews, non-Jews (European focused) and the victims by Japan and allies/collaborators. Japan was an Axis power too. The Banner  talk 19:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)


 * (C) & (6) 
 * Question 1: (C) there is already an article on the Holocaust, another separate article about Jewish victims would be duplicating that;
 * Question 2: (6) "Victims of Nazi persecution" is most concise and precise (i.e. excludes victims of Nazi-fomented wars, and includes all victims of Nazi state policy). Walrasiad (talk) 03:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * C & Opfer der NS-Vernichtungspolitik
 * I recommend keeping this article, it's an eye-opener.* As for the title, it would be quite straightforward if in German: Opfer der NS-Vernichtungspolitik – escaping the confusion of how the Holocaust should be defined. I'm not able myself though to translate it concisely. Opfer der = victims of (or Opfergruppen, victim groups). NS = Nazi Germany, the entire killing machine, including collaborators under its command. Vernichtungspolitik = policy of annihilation, genocide; a total war against targeted civilian populations.
 * A quick, qualified estimate of the stats presented here, and in related articles, gives that 94% of all civilian victims of the Nazi terror came from areas east of Germany, and that 92% of all Jewish victims lived in Eastern Europe. 35% of the victims in Eastern Europe were Jewish, 65% were non-Jewish. Basecam (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * A quick, qualified estimate of the stats presented here, and in related articles, gives that 94% of all civilian victims of the Nazi terror came from areas east of Germany, and that 92% of all Jewish victims lived in Eastern Europe. 35% of the victims in Eastern Europe were Jewish, 65% were non-Jewish. Basecam (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

True number of Slav ww2 victims
Holocaust monopolised by Jewish lobby. Misrepresentation of Slav victims of ww2. Number of Slav victims diminished and Jewish numbers inflated for political reasons/interests. 61.69.130.129 (talk) 02:03, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Evidence? The Banner  talk 10:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Estimates of victims table
Should the category "Soviet civilians" be labeled "Soviet non-Jewish citizens?" No political angle here - I just think it's important that it be clear that some of the 6 million Jewish people murdered were Soviets. Perhaps there is a better way to make this distinction. 45.26.61.142 (talk) 17:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * They are already sorted under Gentiles. The Banner  talk 22:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Albanians victims of the holocaust
Please also add the 28,000 Albanians killed by the Nazi army to the list of Holocaust victims.

This is confirmed by many sources such as the following:


 * Pearson, Owen (2006). Albania in Occupation and War: From Fascism to Communism 1940–1945. Albania in the Twentieth Century. Vol. II. I.B. Tauris. p. 418. ISBN 978-1-84511-104-5.
 * https://memorie.al/en/there-were-517-albanians-in-the-zemun-nazi-camp-where-132-died-from-epidemics-some-cooperating-with-the-germans-such-as-rare-confession-of-a-former-prisoner/
 * Fischer, Bernd Jürgen (1999). Albania at War, 1939–1945. Hurst. p. 268. ISBN 9781850655312.

Please add Albanians as victims of the holocaust. TheIllyrian (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I can't access the first source, but the second and third don't appear to have the word "Holocaust" in them. The third source, p. 268, says 28,000-30,000 is one estimate of the number of Albanian casualties in the war. Of course not everyone who died in the war was a Holocaust victim. The Holocaust in Albania gives the number of Albanian Holocaust victims as 600 (cited to a Haaretz article and Paul R. Bartrop's encyclopedia). But those are already included in the count of Jews given in this article, and this article doesn't give a breakdown of Jews-by-country (which it probably should); there's a little bit of that in Holocaust victims. Levivich (talk) 21:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Capitalists?
The addition of "capitalists" to the list of politically persecuted victims of the holocaust was added by user [] on revision [] without adding any referenced material. None of the previous nor subsequently added references supports that claim.

Someone please either remove "capitalists" from the list or add a reference to a credible source.

91.126.156.12 (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Text conflicts with source re: number of Jews killed in Poland—leading to edit war
Here is the source given, which gives two sets of numbers for Jewish deaths in Poland:


 * from U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: Pre-War Jewish Population 3,350,000; Number of Jews Killed 2,770,000-3,000,000; % of Jewish Population Killed 90%
 * from Yad Vashem: Pre-War Jewish Population 3,300,000; Number of Jews Killed 2,900,000-3,000,000; % of Jewish Population Killed 90%

The text stated:


 * the Nazis murdered 3.3&amp;nbsp;million Jews, or 90&amp;nbsp;percent of its Jewish population.

Which is obviously incorrect. I corrected the text, but The Banner has reverted it twice, asserting "the quote was accurate", which it objectively is not

I don't know how to deal with this. This is as black-and-white as it gets. Surely there is an admin watching this page, as it's been locked? 11:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC) Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:52, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So, what is wrong with the original text?
 * Original text: (...) the Nazis murdered 3.3 million Jews, or 90 percent of its Jewish population
 * New text: (...) the Nazis murdered 3 million of its 3.3 million Jews, about 90 percent of its Jewish population.
 * The only change is that the text is more complex IMHO. The Banner  talk 15:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The original says 3.3 million died. The corrected text says 3 million.  Are you saying you didn't even read the text before reverting it twice?
 * The corrected text should actually say "up to 3 million", as the source gives a range of 2,770,000-3,000,000. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Are your arguments so flimsy that you need personal attacks straight away? The Banner  talk 22:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ADMIN INTERVENTION, PLEASE.
 * The Banner is not engaging in good faith, and seems bent on trying to provoke something. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:43, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I can say that of you too. With my last edit I simplified the text, correcting it the desired 3 million. What do you want more? The Banner  talk 08:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There was nothing even remotely "confusing" about it, and it took calling for an admin for you to finally give in. Now we have you on record admitting that my correction was correct.
 * You show no sign of contrition, and every sign that your trigger finger is ready to revert anything else you don't like. Looking through your talk page history, you appear to have a history of this behaviour.  Perhaps you're used to people backing down when you make a scary face?  Perhaps you should waste people's time elsewhere, like Reddit or 4chan.  Your "contributions" here today have been infuriatingly negative and damaging to the article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And again your arguments are so flimsy that you need personal attacks. The Banner  talk 09:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This is exactly the shit I'm talking about. You were black-and-white wrong, and even after  it, you're still spewing horseshit about "flimsy arguments".  You are obviously going to be a continuing disruption at this article.
 * Do you get off on fucking with people? Because there's nothing else you can achieve with this disruptive manure. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You could have settled the matter with removing two characters... The Banner  talk</i> 11:33, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 July 2024
There was 10.000 Slovenian victims of Holocaust. Please be respectful and put the right information there. So change “20.000 - 25.000 to 10.000”.

https://sl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holokavst 2A02:A444:4C2C:0:21D8:9B33:73B:DE0E (talk) 12:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have reliable sources for that? The statement on the Slovenian Wikipedia (not suitable as a source itself) is unsourced. The Banner  <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 12:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Lol, he's grossly misrepresenting what's written in the slwiki article. 10.000 Slovenes died in Auschwitz, not in whole holocaust. IP is falsifying stuff on both projects.  A09  | (talk)  20:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Number of Slovenian victims too high
Exactly 10.190 Slovenians died due to Holocaust. Why are they portrayed as one of the main target groups? BellatrixxxLestrange (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Source? Slatersteven (talk) 13:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably a sock of the above IP. Source seems to be slwiki, but OP is trying to falsify what is written on slwiki.  A09  | (talk)  20:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)