Talk:Holy Name of Mary College School/Archive 1

Enrollment
The enrollment figure which has been added to this page numerous times is unverifiable. Request for reference has been made but with no response. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

The enrolment figure now has a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeycanuck (talk • contribs) 01:59, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

There have been references made by certain contributers as to how small the school is. Enrollment at Holy Name of Mary College School is 155 (as of June 18, 2011), which exceeds the Mean number of students for all private schools in Ontario, of 148. (See http://www.societyforqualityeducation.org/reports/OntariosPrivateSchools.pdf (Table 1)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.72.69 (talk) 00:11, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

By any standard, whether public or private, the school is small and falls short of its cap. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.17.230 (talk) 03:30, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Mickeycanuck (aka 99.254.17.230 - as per information contained in his/her request to unblock IP) states, "By any standard, whether public or private, the school is small..." While it is true the school has not yet reached its cap, it is not small when compared to other private schools. As per the previously referenced url, http://www.societyforqualityeducation.org/reports/OntariosPrivateSchools.pdf (Table 1)), the Mean number of students for all private schools in Ontario is 148, while this school's enrollment is 155. Given this private school's enrollment exceeds the Mean number for all private schools in Ontario, the school cannot be considered small, when compared to other private schools. Comparing this school with some public schools, it might very well be considered small, but then comparing private and public schools would, in many cases, be tantamount to comparing apples to oranges.  As for Mikeycanuck's statement, "and falls short of its cap", the cap on enrollment is provided as information for prospective parents as to the maximum number of students that will be allowed to attend.  It is included to provide transparency about current enrollment as compared to maximum enrollment. Parents may draw their own conclusions regarding the enrollment and cap since both numbers are contained in the Infobox. The introduction by Mikeycanuck of the same information in the article is redundant and should therefore be deleted.

A school can be private and quite small. Just because many private schools are very small doesn't mean HNMCS isn't small. Stating that is using the facts to describe the school. It's not redundant. Everyone knows HNMCS has not come close to achieving the students it had hoped to attract, and I know this first hand from my many Basilian friends and staff at SMCS.Mikeycanuck (talk) 03:58, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The fact is the school's enrollment number is greater than the Mean number of students for all private schools in Ontario. That is a verifiable fact. Mikeycanuck's characterization of the school as "quite small" is a subjective opinion. Mikeycanuck states, "Everyone knows HNMCS has not come close to achieving the students it had hoped to attract, and I know this first hand from my many Basilian friends and staff at SMCS." Please provide verifiable references to support this claim. 174.89.27.124 (talk) 04:03, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Location
User:Mikeycanuck states in the View History, "Alumnae and others unaware of the school's forced relocation might now be aware so it's appropriate in the HMNCS introduction as well." The use of the phrase "forced relocation" uncovers a potential bias and therefore conflict of interest on the part of Mikeycanuck. The purpose of the reference to both schools is to reduce ambiguity and refer Wiki users to the correct page. The historical location of the school is addressed on the wiki page for Holy Name of Mary Secondary School.

Request neutral third-party review and recommendation as the constant revisions on this point are not helpful. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 07:18, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

There is no bias intended. The school was forced to relocate and that is a verifiable fact. Adding the simple phrase "previously on its campus" removes any ambiguity to those not aware that the original Holy Name of Mary was relocated to Brampton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeycanuck (talk • contribs) 07:22, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for neutral third-party review and recommendation, notwithstanding Mikeycanuck's statement above. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 07:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck (aka IP 99.254.17.230) states, "the original Holy Name of Mary was relocated to Brampton". In fact, the original Holy Name of Mary School ceased to exist and two schools, Holy Name of Mary College School and Holy Name of Mary Secondary School were created. The location of the original school, and that of the renamed school, Holy Name of Mary Secondary School, is addressed in the History section. The inclusion of this information in the introduction of the article is redundant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.27.124 (talk) 06:10, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

When Holy Name was privatized in 2008, the school community that was relocated did not cease to be the "original" Holy Name of Mary. Most of the students and staff followed in the move. The history and traditions built up followed to Brampton, which is clear from Holy Name of Mary Secondary School's official history on its website and publications. The only difference was the building. In a parallel instance, St. Michael's College School did not cease being St. Michael's College School when relocated from Bay St. to St. Clair Ave. So yes, Holy Name was previously located in Mississauga on the campus of what is now HNMCS. It is important information for alumna and readers who might be confused about what happened to HNMCS without getting into the nitty gritty of history. If the fact is not wrong, which it is not, then it should be clearly stated that the school was relocation in the introduction. If you really believe that two new schools were created, then you can't say Holy Name College School was founded in 1964. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.254.17.230 (talk) 03:23, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck (aka 99.254.17.230) states, "Most of the students and staff followed in the move." Would you please provide numbers (and verifiable references) as to how many students were enrolled in Holy Name of Mary Secondary School (Brampton) in September 2008 and how many of them attended Holy Name of Mary School (Mississauga) in September 2007. There is unlikely to be any confusion about "what happened to HNMCS", given the wiki for Holy Name of Mary Secondary School goes into the "nitty gritty" of that history in some detail, from the school board's decision to vacate the premises in Mississauga, to the opening of the renamed Holy Name of Mary Secondary School in Brampton. The location issue is also mentioned in the History section of this wiki. At least we appear to agree the history and traditions of Holy Name of Mary College School and Holy Name of Mary Secondary School draw upon the original Holy Name of Mary College School. In that sense, both schools were founded in 1964, certainly in a spiritual sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.27.124 (talk) 03:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Confusion will arise, and that is why it is fair to put the information on the relocation right at the start. This is still fairly recent news. I don't deny HNMCS has inherited some aspects of the original school, but calling HNMCSS a "new" entity in any way is historically false. I will find a reference for the numbers that followed to the new location.Mikeycanuck (talk) 03:54, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

For people who might not read beyond the introduction, what's to stop them from thinking that HNMCS is the "original" HNM, and that the one in Brampton is just another school named Holy Name of Mary. Look how many Notre Dames and St. Joseph's and Jean Vanier Schools there are in the GTA now. This is why I think it's appropriate to briefly reference that HNMCSS used to be in Mississauga at the start. I think it's fair. It's true. It's a very recent occurence that the school moved.Mikeycanuck (talk) 04:02, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

On the Holy Name of Mary Secondary School wiki page, Mikeycanuck removed content from a particular section stating readers would get to it "soon enough" in the sections that follow. I'm trying to understand how Mikeycanuck can argue for content to be removed on one page based on the fact it appears later in the article, but not on this page? 174.89.27.124 (talk) 04:06, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck, you did not respond to my request to provide references to support your claim, "Most of the students and staff followed in the move." Would you please provide numbers (and verifiable references) as to how many students were enrolled in Holy Name of Mary Secondary School (Brampton) in September 2008 and how many of them attended Holy Name of Mary School (Mississauga) in September 2007? 174.89.27.124 (talk) 04:18, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I shall in good time.Mikeycanuck (talk) 04:23, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

View History
Please review entire page history as there is definite pattern and tone to Mikeycanuck's entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.220.182.220 (talk) 07:52, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Please also review entire page history for Holy Name of Mary Secondary School as there is a recurring pattern and bias to entries from 74.220.182.220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeycanuck (talk • contribs) 13:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC) Mikeycanuck (talk) 13:25, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck stated in View History the school almost closed again in 2010 and school numbers are still low and not close to projections. No references provided; unverified statements challenged and removed as per Wiki standards. The school's enrollment has tripled since the 2008/2009 school year, and the long term viability of the school is no longer in question. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 03:04, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

As of 24 June 2011, the school's enrollment has more than quadrupled since the 2008/2009 school year. The viability of the school is not in question at this time. 174.89.27.124 (talk) 19:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion of student opinion in History section
Mikeycanuck asserts the opinion of a Grade 11 student represents the feelings of the communities of two schools, Holy Name of Mary Catholic Secondary School and Holy Name of Mary College School. The student may very well be able to speak to the feelings of her own school, and as such, her opinion "may" belong on that school's wiki page. Holy Name of Mary College's school community has not expressed the same feelings, and as such, the opinion does not belong on this school's wiki page. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 04:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The student's reaction is the an incident in both HNMCS and HMNCS's history. It's wiki states it was founded in 1964. Was it? Or is history only the day it opened as a new school. How this school was created and how people reacted is part of its history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeycanuck (talk • contribs) 04:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The student's opinion may not belong on Wiki at all, but if it does have a place, it belongs on the Holy Name of Mary Catholic Secondary School wiki page. Including it on the Holy Name of Mary College School's wiki page may leave the impression this student's sentiments represent the feelings of the Holy Name of Mary College's school community. Holy Name of Mary College's school community has not expressed the same feelings. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 04:53, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The reference is clear that it reflects the school's history re: the lease of the building. . It does not leave the impression HNMCS students feel this way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikeycanuck (talk • contribs) 04:56, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The opinion is that of a Holy Name of Mary Catholic Secondary School student and "may" belong to that school's wiki page. It has no place on this school's wiki page. Awaiting neutral third-party review. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 05:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The student's opinion reflects historical reaction of many people to the lease termination for the publicly-funded school. It forms part of the historical record, whether 74.220.182.220 wants it to be or not. Virtually no current HNMCS students were part of the pre-2008 HNM community. Mikeycanuck (talk) 05:12, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck, would you please confirm how many current Holy Name of Mary Catholic Secondary School students were part of the pre-2008 HNM community? 74.220.182.220 (talk) 05:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

74.220.182.220 -- I cannot confirm that number, but since the school expanded to Grade 5 and opened without Grades 11-12, no one in Grades 5,6,7,8,9, or 10 could have been part of the original HMN, so a small number. Mikeycanuck (talk) 05:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck, -- likewise, no one currently in Grades 9, 10, or 11 at Holy Name of Mary Catholic Secondary School is likely to have been part of the original HMN. Would you agree? 74.220.182.220 (talk) 05:33, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

74.220.182.220 -- correct, but this is about history, not 2011. Would you agree? Mikeycanuck (talk) 05:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck -- If this is about history, what was the point of your assertion, "Virtually no current HNMCS students were part of the pre-2008 HNM community."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.220.182.220 (talk) 05:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

You stated that the reference creates an impression that current HMNCS might feel the way the student did in 2007. I am saying that it is clearly not a HMNCS student's opinion. It is the opinion of someone who had to move to a new location. You obviously are part of the current HMNCS and might see the history through your own lens. Mikeycanuck (talk) 05:47, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck -- since the opinion is that of a Holy Name of Mary Catholic Secondary School student, it may have a place on that school's wiki page. Instead of going back and forth, how about we wait for a neutral third-party review? Your assertion, "You obviously are part of the current HMNCS and might see the history through your own lens." is unfounded and I will not respond in kind; I prefer to stick with verifiable facts. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 06:01, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

74.220.182.220 -- Yes we can wait. As for you being part of the HMNCS, there is much evidence to support that belief. Anyone who purposely adds facts to other schools' wiki articles (Loretto Abbey, HNMCSS) that will be perceived as negative, is showing a bias. You add nothing positive to those schools' pages, which is telling. And including a newspaper letter to the editor that gives a glimpse of how an historical event was seen by many, is indeed sticking to "verifiable facts". Mikeycanuck (talk) 06:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck -- You have made many additions to other schools' wiki articles (Loretto Abbey, Holy Name of Mary College School, and St. Michael's College School). Of these, you target Holy Name of Mary College School and St. Michael's College School with additions that may be perceived as negative; you add nothing positive to those schools' pages. By your own logic, is this proof of your association to Holy Name of Mary Catholic Secondary School? 74.220.182.220 (talk) 06:19, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

74.220.182.220 -- I've added lots of information to many sites. You can assume I am part of HNMCS, but I am not. I've made lots of changes and additions to many school's sites, beyond the ones you mention. I may be a nun. I may be a CSB. I may be just one who believes in Catholic education. Mikeycanuck (talk) 06:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck -- You have made only negative additions to Holy Name of Mary College School and St. Michael's College School. I make no assumptions about you, and certainly would not assume you are Catholic, or a nun, or a CSB. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

74.220.182.220 -- Assume what you wish. Let's see what I added to HNMCS that you deleted right away.... Is including the tuition of HNMCS negative? Is including the student population negative? Is being honest about the school's history negative? I can even understand why you want to make Loretto and HNMCS look bad. As one who is quite Catholic, albeit imperfect, and who believes strongly in Catholic education available to all without reference to the wealth of a child's family, I am making sure they are accurately and fairly portrayed. Mikeycanuck (talk) 06:43, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

74.220.182.220 -- I've removed the Marshall reference from SMCS. I'm sure it's shown you what purposely adding a negative fact to a school's website doesn't seem nice, even when the facts are true. Mikeycanuck (talk) 06:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck -- Now I understand; you support Catholic education, but only if it is publicly supported. That explains, but does not excuse, your actions. 74.220.182.220 (talk) 00:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

74.220.182.220 -- And I understand, you will do anything to make other girls schools appear as negative as possible to make HNMCS look better. Also, very Catholic eh? Mikeycanuck (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion of school type, gender, and religious information for SMCS
There have been repeated deletions by Mikeycanuck (aka 99.254.17.230) which remove pertinent information about St. Michael's College School from this article. The two schools are brother and sister schools, and as per the History section in this article, "The Felician Sisters and St. Michael's College School co-founded the independent Holy Name of Mary College School". As such, it is appropriate to contain some basic information about SMCS in this article and in the same way, to include some basic information about Holy Name of Mary College School in the SMCS article. The inclusion of the school type (private), gender (all-boys), and religious information (Catholic) of St. Michael's College School in this article, is meant to illustrate the parallels to the school type (independent), gender (all-girls), and religious information (Catholic) of Holy Name of Mary College School. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.27.124 (talk) 05:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck once again removed relevant content illustrating the parallels between the schools without referring to the Discussion page, despite the fact the Discussion page was referred to in the View History. I would appreciate entering into a discussion regarding this point with Mikeycanuck, rather than enter an "edit war". Mikeycanuck, would you care to respond? 174.89.27.124 (talk) 04:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I have not been remotely convinced that it is relevant to an article on Holy Name of Mary C.S. that St. Mike's is private and Catholic. It's superfluous information. Readers who want to learn about SMCS can do so on its wiki.Mikeycanuck (talk) 04:18, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The point of including this basic information is to show how Holy Name of Mary College School and St. Michael's College School are connected by virtue of their school type, single-gender, and religious affiliation. The inclusion of this basic information is included to illustrate the parallels between the two schools. These parallels are part of the reason they are brother and sister schools, and therefore this information is relevant and should be included in the article. 174.89.27.124 (talk) 04:25, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Mikeycanuck has suggested a compromise on this point on the SMCS wiki page. On that Discussion page I asked, "So if understand correctly, the inclusion of a section on each wiki describing the links between the schools is an acceptable compromise in your view?" Awaiting his response. 174.89.27.124 (talk) 05:11, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Resolved by the inclusion of SMCS school type, single-gender, and religious affiliation in this article's introduction; see SMCS wiki Discussion page for details of compromise. 174.89.27.124 (talk) 05:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)