Talk:Holy Spirit in Islam

Only One View Of Abortion In Islam Is Presented
First of all, according to the wiki article islam and abortion, while abortion is a hotly debated subject in Islamic jurisprudence, "the majority of Muslim scholars permit abortion, although they differ on the stage of fetal development beyond which it becomes prohibited."; second, the given Quranic passages do not explicitly say anything that contradicts this statement; third, the entire espousal of this emotionally charged and singular view is irrelevant to the article anyways.Extrabadfish (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)extrabadfish

Incorrect reference to Genesis 18
I did not find anything related to Gabriel or a spirit in Genesis 18. Might this refer to Genesis 16? In there at least I can see references to "the angel of the Lord". If you know about this, please correct. God Head /*26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

For people who believe the bible Genesis Chapter 1 verse #26 God said "Let Us make man in our image,after our likeness"/ This shows God was speaking to another part of being The Creator. This has to be at least His Son Jesus. This in my view shows there is a God Head of at least 2 forms. I believe three because when God and/or Jesus said something The Holy Spirit performed the action.Fishenfun (talk) 02:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)Fishenfunx

Trinity in the Quran
I would argue that the Allah of the Quran IS a Trinity, as the text speaks for itself. In Muslim exegesis, however, this is explained away via the application of the name of Angel Gabriel to the Holy Spirit, even though the Spirit of Allah has all the attributes of God, such as the ability to create life and omnipresence, and is never associated with an angel or with any other created entity which is subordinate to God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.158.14 (talk) 00:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it a forum topic? »  nafSadh did say 10:26, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The idea of a trinity is unique to Christianity - it's a mistranslation of the Hebrew, where it refers to the "breath" of Yahweh, and where Yahweh's breath is seen as the source of life. PiCo (talk) 03:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I am not going to argue what the concept of Allah is in the Quran; but the English translation of the Quran used here has a flaw. It translates the passages regarding the beliefs of others as "Trinity", however this is not the word used by Arabic Christians, in fact the word used is better translated "Three" a pantheon concept of Allah held by some sects in Arabia at the time of the Prophet.It is misleading in an English text to use such a translation. It is obviously the bias of the translated rather than faithful study of the text. A comparison can be made by looking at the Arabic text of the Quran and Arabic Christian documents regarding the "Trinity" such as the Canons of their Churches User:Alaxdar —Preceding undated comment added 18:23, 5 September 2011 (UTC).

That is a mistranslation of 5 Al-Maeda 73, it does not use those words.إِلَـٰهٌ Ila is אל El in Hebrew, and means a God, اللَّهَ Allah is אלהי Elohey in Hebrew, the Highest El, and he is Holy Spirit, and to put the Highest El the third of three, is the blasphemy against Holy Spirit that Jesus said has no forgiveness in this life, or the life to come like Muhammad is saying. You are are each an El, a group is plural El, אלהים Elohim. Speaking of Jerusalem from above as Christ Joseph's Bride, and speaking of the Prophet like unto Moses Joseph as Elohim, speaking of Joseph's son Jesus as the High Priest like unto Aaron, calling the Father and Son each,  an El, putting Holy Spirit Yahweh our Creator as the third of three is blasphemy. I am the Prophet Joseph. Psalm 82:6 א‍ני־אמרתי אלהים אתם ובני עליון כלכם׃ "I said, You are Elohim, and my son Highest all you!

.5 Al-Maeda 73

"Have disbelieved who say that Allah is the third of three and no El but one El, although not finished what they say to the elders who disbelieve their painful torment."

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَـٰهٍ إِلَّا إِلَـٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۚ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ 2001:558:6014:31:1174:DC89:7267:6449 (talk) 17:59, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Article structure
Normally in a Wikipedia article the title term goes first, then related terms, then not directly related items, hence:
 * 1) The Holy Spirit, al-Ruh al-Quds, in the Quran
 * 2) The Spirit, al-Ruh, in the Quran
 * 3) The Quran against the Trinity
 * 4) Muslim view of Gabriel
 * 5) See also
 * 6) References
 * Also the article badly needs better WP:RS sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:50, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Rename to Angel Gabriel (Islam)
The term Holy Spirit is never used by Muslims and just causes confusion (ie. makes some people believe that Muslims agree with the Christian concept of Trinity) - 175.107.232.114 (talk) 17:09, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Arabic wording
There seem to be two accepted terms in Arabic for The Holy Spirit, الروح القدس ar-rūḥ al-qudus, which is used here, and روح القدس rūḥ al-qudus.

The difference is primarily a grammatical one, in the first the word qudus is used as an adjective, and in the other it's used as a noun. But, I have also found that the former alternative is used in the Arabic Bible, while the latter is used in the Quran. Since this article is about The Holy Spirit in Islam, I think it would be more appropriate to use the term used in the Quran. There is also a problem with the transliteration of the word قدس into quddus, with gemination, instead of qudus, without gemination, which is the proper transliteration of the word. There might be some confusion with the word قدّوس quddūs, which means most holy.

Wazzafak (talk) 12:45, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Make up yer minds, guv
The article states:


 * The Holy Spirit (Arabic: روح القدس‎, Rūḥ al-Qudus) also known as Jibrayil described in the Islamic faith is mentioned several times in the Qur'an, and is generally interpreted by Muslims as being the same Holy Spirit that is referred to in both the Old and the New Testaments of the Bible

The intro says two things: that the Islam version of the HS is J (aka Gabriel) and also that its the same as the Christian view. The Christian view is that the HS is the third aspect of the Trinity; and not at all Gabriel.

Or so it seems to me.

Clarification?


 * Mmmhh, It is very strong claim that of the intro paragraph! and it is not backed by a single reference I'll have it therefore removed as for Muslims there is no bible or is there new or old testaments, then there shouldn't be any parallels. The wording Jibrayil should be preferred when referring to the created messenger they refer to.186.144.42.107 (talk) 03:41, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

William M. Connolley (talk) 23:22, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Holy Spirit (Christianity) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:46, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Holy Spirit in Christianity which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:02, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Military campaigns
The "Military campaigns" is a common characteristic for the archangel jabrail, but I think not of "the holy spirit", except one hold them as the same. This might be the case for several scholars, especially whose who reject most anthropomorphic characteristics of angels, but the main characteristics of "holy spirit" is revelation, while Jabrail is both revelation and "destruction" (also for Sodom & Gomorrah, War, ...), while the "Holy Spirit" is not. Some sources even consider the "Ruh" (as long I do not confuse something here, is seems to be the same as the "Holy Spirit" (Ruh al Qudus)) as another angels above Jabrail, or the Ruh something that Jabrail is entrustet with. My suggestion is, to move this section to Gabriel#Islam?--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 11:39, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Hmm. We need to go to RSs on this one. The article on Gabriel (D̲j̲abrāʾīl) in Encyclopedia of Islam, 2nd ed, states in passing that Gabriel is identified in Islam with the spirit mentioned in those Quranic verses. There is no separate entry on ruh al-qudus, which, given how comprehensive EI2 is, indicates that the editors did not regard it as a separate Islamic concept. Ruh is treated in the same entry as nafs as a more general concept. Encyclopaedia of the Qurʾān does have separate entries on Gabriel and Holy Spirit. The former states "Gabriel is further identified by the commentators with the spirit who, together with “the angels,” descends and ascends to God". The entry on Holy Spirit states that "some" Muslim commentators make that identification while "For others the holy spirit in these passages is said to be identical with the created spirit from God, identified elsewhere in the Qur'ān as the agency by which God enlivened Adam (e.g. q 15:29), made Mary pregnant with Jesus (q 21:91), and inspired the angels and the prophets."
 * Based on this, I don't see a rationale for having an article called Holy Spirit in Islam at all, since Islamic doctrine identifies the expression ruh al-qudus either with Gabriel or with other uses of the term ruh. I suggest that we distribute the content in this article between a new article called Gabriel in Islam (article move) and the article Rūḥ. I think the narrative minutia we have here on military campaigns is too detailed for a high-level article like Gabriel. Much of it doesn't strike me as encyclopedic at all. Eperoton (talk) 22:57, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I guess it was in "Stephen Burge Angels in Islam: Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti's al-Haba'ik fi akhbar al-mala'ik ", there "Ruh" was explained in detail as a seperate entity. He was designated as "the spirit caring for the souls (also called "ruh")" or a high-ranking angel in Emanationism cosmology (the highest intellect). But since "the highest intellect" is also identified with Gabriel or "the Pen", I think an entire article for "Ruh al Qudus" would be too extensive. I sometimes foun some references to "Ruh al Qudus" as a seperate spirit (or angel). I once thought to add him within the "Ruh"-section, but withdrew since he is not mentioned very often, and if he is mentioned, he can easily (and is often) replaced by another angel in Islam. So, basically, I agree with you. Concent, which refers to the concept of "Ruh" itself, should be moved to Rūḥ and all the stuff, referring to Gabriel can be moved to an article "Gabriel in Islam". Yes, the "military section" strikes me odd sometimes, although I think, his role as a "warring angel" is noteworthy (for example, accordginy to "Milton in the Arab-Muslim World", Miltons uses Gabriel as the warrior angel, instead of Michael, as usually in Christian thought). It further indicates a line between Jewish and Islamic angelology than Christian and Islamic angelology, to depict Gabriel as an angel of destruction and war. However, the style the "militant campaign" section uses, needs to be rewritten, that could be done after a move.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:09, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Ok, great. I made some quick source verifications and additions to the articles. I have to run now, but it sounds like we have a consensus. If you'd like to do the move/reorganization yourself, please go ahead. Eperoton (talk) 00:17, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I moved much content here to the "Ruh" article now. When I was going to move the rest of this article to "Gabriel in Islam", I noticed that the article is 1) a redirect to Gabriel#Islam. 2) That we do not have specific articles for the other archangels Islamic counterpartsas well (except Israfil). The article would look empty anyway. Do you agree to just redirect this page to "Ruh#Ruh al Qudus" instead?--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I think it was the right next step. There's enough material in the two encyclopedias I consulted to have a separate article about Gabriel in Islam, so I'll put that on my todo list. Eperoton (talk) 01:55, 5 February 2019 (UTC)