Talk:Holyoke Police Department

Notability
Coverage was not local news, WRAL is not a local station, this also falls under 1 of only 7 police departments in this state taking part in the US Marshal Services Fugitive Task Force and was among 6 others national cities to be within one of the Police Foundation's first major studies on community policing. Holyoke consistently shows on lists of the most dangerous American cities (NeighborhoodScout example) and has been extensively covered by non-local third party sources because of this- at what point does this become notable when you have such examples as Salem Police Department (Massachusetts), Cambridge Police Department (Massachusetts), Somerville Auxiliary Police Department? I am not about to write the entirety of its contents into the city's main article. --Simtropolitan (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The other police departments are fair examples but also think speak to what Wikipedia was like in 2014, 2009, and 2011 respectively. I found the page through new page patrol which didn't exist in any of those years. Since there is no WP:SNG for Police Departments I was judging against GNG. I did not go super indepth in my search of outside sources but what I saw suggested local and run-of-the-mill. I concede I made a faulty assumption about WRAL but in general I'm not seeing the sort of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject that GNG asks for. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Would you agree the US Marshals Service is a source independent of a city police department? There are hundreds of articles in national news talking about murders of officers and disturbances related to this dept, but is that that how one establishes significance with these? If I want to explain the nature of the area's multiple riots and national narcotics trafficking cases in context with the worst crime in Massachusetts, this article, or some form of it, becomes necessary. The criteria for sources is reliable, significant, and independent. If an out-of-state news source, a report from a national non-profit, and a reference from a federal agency,  aren't enough to establish notability to start this article, what would it take? (7/351 Mass. police departments, 7/17000+ national departments) --Simtropolitan (talk) 22:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I acknowledge that not every town police department should necessarily have a page, but I would argue a state's cities, even its smaller ones, may have notability where something like crime has had such a large impact in recent years, but again I don't know if that unfortunate reputation is enough to warrant coverage. This is something that seems arbitrary when you consider again, whatever the year it was made, Wikipedia has an article for Police departments at the University of California. My point being, I see the guidelines in Notability (organizations and companies), however, what makes a notable police department? Some place's sourced reputation for high violent and property crime? The population of a town/city? Its participation in C3 policing or federal programs? The amount of national or international study it has had for community policing? Some specific murder of an officer, or egregious crime (which appears to be "notability" for many of these older articles? --Simtropolitan (talk) 23:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I am not trying to debate the notability or lack thereof of other police departments, just this one. For the sources you raised I see one reliable secondary sources without significant coverage (US Marshalls), one reliable secondary sources that is a rehashed press release (WRAL) thus not independent (as I can find nearly identical stories in multiple places), and one book that is reliable, independent, and offers significant coverage. So we agree Team Policing helps establish notability. If there were more sources present like that I would have marked it as NPP reviewed which always brings me more satisfaction than when I do some other patrol action. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * This police department's notability follows the same rules, if not what criteria are we going by? We're looking for significance in the subject, and if the U.S. Marshals office lists this as one of few in a national program, does it by definition require multiple follow up stories? We rely on a subject's "'significant coverage' in reliable sources so that we can actually write a whole article", not significant coverage of a specific source. Most of these other articles provide similar sourcing- if an article is syndicated in the national news, that is the state of journalism today, is this not still significant and independent coverage? (Edit: Moreover, the Boston Police Department for example cites almost exclusively City of Boston and Boston Globe sources, even if it is a metropolitan world city vs a small city, these seem like double standards to go by what distant sources cover a police dept)--Simtropolitan (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:RS reminds us that Press releases from the organizations or journals are often used by newspapers with minimal change; such sources are churnalism and should not be treated differently than the underlying press release. It is speaking there of scientific journals but the caution equally applies to any sort of press release picked up as churnalism. The nearly identical usage is why I say that it doesn't matter how far and wide it was used - it's not independent and thus does not count towards GNG. As for the Marshall's page it literally just names 10 agencies who were part of the task force. This is not some in-depth accounting this is a routine way that law enforcement agencies operate. Again it's not significant. I am sure the Holyoke PD has an important impact on a high crime community but that doesn't convey them notability on Wikipedia - at least not from the evidence I have seen so far. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:57, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You still haven't said what makes a notable local law enforcement agency on Wikipedia if this is somehow more than WP:GNG. Most of how law agencies operate is routine, but WP:MILL says nothing about this unless you're putting them in the same category as box stores or B-movies. Virtually all PD articles use these kinds of sources. If I'm citing an AP or UPI source and it's word-for-word in multiple publications, does that automatically make it churnalism or on par with the press release of a private company? When municipal police agencies like SLCPD, Boston PD, Cincinnati PD pass review with these kinds of sources, you're holding this to a different standard. If none of those do pass your own criteria, what kind of sources does one need to use to establish notability for a municipal police dept?--Simtropolitan (talk) 05:32, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Any major metropolitan police department is going to have no problem passing GNG with flying colors. They will have regular profiles written about their effectiveness (or not) by reliable indpendent secondary sources. The WRAL doesn't appear to have been written by the AP or UPI or some such. It has all the hall marks of a press release. A gussied up press release is not an independent source or assessment. Holyoke is not the size of Salt Lake, Boston, or Cincinnati so it's not surprising its institutions will be less notable. Are there other good sources out there, closer to Team Policing about Holyoke? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Any major metropolitan police department is going to have no problem passing GNG with flying colors"
 * > I can cite Wiley, articles in the Dallas Morning News, the Office of the Solicitor General of Canada, and that seems a bit moot if that's what is to establish notability. So if I too cite local newspaper articles from the The Republican or the Boston Globe, or the Hartford Courant, that doesn't count for GNG? City population is the only criteria? If you look in those reference sections, your idea of notability seems to be based on some idea that it needs to be a major city (where is the cutoff? Cincinnati? Carmel NY?) to get a pass regardless even if they are using the same caliber of sources or only explain the staff organization.--Simtropolitan (talk) 05:49, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not editing or patrolling those other pages nor are we having this discussion there. This is about how the Holyoke Police Department does or does not meet WP:N through WP:GNG. So I'll try asking again if there are there sources you're aware of that are closer in independence, significance, and reliability of Team Policing about Holyoke that could be added? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 05:54, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * We're not, but patrollers are supposed to apply the same rules w/regard to sources and notability. I said that there were more-
 * But that seems moot if you've chosen to ignore what I last raised. It shouldn't hinge on one type of program, is there any reason to doubt the significance, independence, and reliability of the aforementioned newspapers and publishers? Sources like-
 * If those are not sufficient, this needs to start a new discussion in guidelines for other articles. Having NPP applying unwritten rules for police dept notability by population should be part of a larger discussion.--Simtropolitan (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Most of those do seem like stronger sources (not the one about hiring new cops that's routine coverage). I think you should be WP:BOLD add in information cited to them and republish the page. We'll see what conclusion another reviewer will come to about notability but I suspect with the inclusion of that information you'll get patrolled successfully. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * But that seems moot if you've chosen to ignore what I last raised. It shouldn't hinge on one type of program, is there any reason to doubt the significance, independence, and reliability of the aforementioned newspapers and publishers? Sources like-
 * If those are not sufficient, this needs to start a new discussion in guidelines for other articles. Having NPP applying unwritten rules for police dept notability by population should be part of a larger discussion.--Simtropolitan (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Most of those do seem like stronger sources (not the one about hiring new cops that's routine coverage). I think you should be WP:BOLD add in information cited to them and republish the page. We'll see what conclusion another reviewer will come to about notability but I suspect with the inclusion of that information you'll get patrolled successfully. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If those are not sufficient, this needs to start a new discussion in guidelines for other articles. Having NPP applying unwritten rules for police dept notability by population should be part of a larger discussion.--Simtropolitan (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Most of those do seem like stronger sources (not the one about hiring new cops that's routine coverage). I think you should be WP:BOLD add in information cited to them and republish the page. We'll see what conclusion another reviewer will come to about notability but I suspect with the inclusion of that information you'll get patrolled successfully. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If those are not sufficient, this needs to start a new discussion in guidelines for other articles. Having NPP applying unwritten rules for police dept notability by population should be part of a larger discussion.--Simtropolitan (talk) 06:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Most of those do seem like stronger sources (not the one about hiring new cops that's routine coverage). I think you should be WP:BOLD add in information cited to them and republish the page. We'll see what conclusion another reviewer will come to about notability but I suspect with the inclusion of that information you'll get patrolled successfully. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2018 (UTC)