Talk:Homeland (TV series)/Archive 1

Character Names
At the time of creation of this article (I suspect once we get closer to fall it will be clarified) it was quite difficult to get the correct character names. I thought I would explain why I chose the character names that I did. For example if you look under IMDB - Damian Lewis is cast as Scott Brody, but watching the clip you distinctly hear in the briefing that his name is Nicholas. Obviously during production they changed the name but to what it is actually right now I have no idea. Also Claire Danes is cast as Carrie Anderson, but again watching the clip; in the briefing her name is Carrie MATHESON. Now I was unable to find reference to a MATHESON and therefore have chosen to use Anderson instead like it is sourced.

The clip in question is available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyFmS3wRPCQ

If there are any concerns about character names please post them here. Meowies (talk) 09:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

The article states that the two principal characters were renamed: "Along with the announcement of the premiere date for the series, the network also announced that the names of the characters portrayed by Claire Danes and Damian Lewis had been renamed Carrie Mathison and Nicholas Brody, respectively." But I cannot find mention of what they were named prior to the change. Any thoughts? Appreciated. 99.246.170.110 (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I added the previous character names to the article. Thanks for the suggestion. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:07, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

It is my experience, anecdotely, that some Marines use the nickname or euphamism "jodie" to refer to a soldier who disgraces himself in some manner, I think it could be a reference to a "Judas" but it might have some other mil-speak origin, such as snafu or fubar it could even be an anagram? Could "Brodie" be a play on words, given the character's complex idealogical representation? As an allusion, it isn't beyond some authors to be so bold, think say F. Scott Fitzgerald I think with bananafish, no that wasn't Fitzgerald, let's see, Franny and Zooey, oh what's-his-face, Catcher in the Rye, right? Well, now I'm just starting to sound like Carrie: green, green marker, green marker, yes! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.243 (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Series origin
According to many sources (for instance this one:) the series is based on Israeli series named "Prisoner of war". This info is not included in the article, can someone add it?--Gilisa (talk) 11:38, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This has been added, thank you. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Hatufim is not POWs, but "kidnapped" or "captives". POWs is Shvu'im. A captive soldier can be a POW, if he's held buy an army of a government. But if he's held by a terrorist organization, denied any of a POW rights and may be killed by his captors, he's not a POW, but a "captive".--109.66.36.212 (talk) 21:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)Noa
 * Google Translate says "Kidnapped". --79.223.27.39 (talk) 22:41, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can some Hebrew speaker please find a reliable source for the translation of חטופים? Google Translate seems to constitute WP:OR. --91.10.43.148 (talk) 14:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not Google translate that is the problem. You provided no source for the Hebrew text that you added to the article, which you now claim translates to "Kidnapped". The source used in the article says that the series is "based on the Israeli format Hatufim aka Prisoners of War". It doesn't say that "Prisoners of War" is the literal translation, just that it is "also known as". --AussieLegend (talk) 15:00, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A source for a title? I guess you are serious, which makes it worse. Here is my Original Research:
 * Pick the article's title in he.wikipedia.org.
 * The translation is sourced, but I understand that by now you can't accept anything I do. Anyway, I accepted your (apparently) wrong translation and requested a RS before you came back to mention that point.
 * "Hatufim" is obviously a transliteration, and while I see the point of including it, it is certainly not more important than the actual original title. --91.10.43.148 (talk) 19:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia articles can not be used as references. That's not my rule, it's Wikipedia's. The source used in this article says what it says. If you disagree, you need a better source, that qualifies as reliable, but you can't ust say "Oh, it's in a Wikipedia article." --AussieLegend (talk) 20:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey all, Hebrew native speaker here. Hatufim or χatufim is the hebrew word for caprive or kidnapped. Babylon translation has it as: adj./n. abducted, kidnapped, snatched. In Hebrew the word is not used in any way to specifically relate to prisoners of war. There is a differet word for that Shvuyim. Not sure if anyone is following this thread so I'll add the hebrew word in hebrew and remove the prisoner of war reference. It should also be mentioned that the plot is close to but not really the same as the Israeli show plot. Drorzm (talk) 11:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Most Unnecessarily Uninformative Article Ever
No mention of what it probably the most important element of the show, her mental illness? You can't be fucking serious. --79.223.27.39 (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

i agree, this should be put somewhere in the overview. It is def a big part of the show, and will probably show up again later.MilkStraw532 (talk) 21:36, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

It's not surprising that the article skips mental illness. The whole focus is the biased presentation of "controversies," which sounds like it was written by an identity politics lefty. A few pro forma defenses against these attacks are included, but not enough to achieve balance. This is a work of fiction. Jamming it into the tiresome framework of identity politics distracts rather than informs. Wiki is an encyclopedia, not Buzzfeed. This is a common defect in Wikipedia, which infects even articles purported to be about science, if there happens to be a left-right split on that topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:240:CB81:3770:944D:CA0C:E9E0:DC42 (talk) 16:32, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Reference for showing that a word is a word.
No, sorry, I'm too old for that shit. If you want bad articles in Wikipedia, you do fine without me. --91.10.43.148 (talk) 20:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

'The Manchurian Candidate', similarities to
I'm wondering why 'The Manchurian Candidate' isn't mentioned anywhere in the article - the similarities and parallels are surprisingly blatant - almost a remake as a TV serial. I also note that there is a link to Homeland on the Manchurian Candidate page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twizzlemas (talk • contribs) 10:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There are some similarities, perhaps; enough to merit a "see also" entry, maybe. But unless some reliable source has made the same connection, then at present it doesn't have a place in the article, no. Swanny18 (talk) 20:33, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

You could obviously go further and examine the history of torture and SERE training, which the CIA developed in the 1950's based upon Russian Gulag and Chinese methods of interrogation, and then further look at similarities in the use of LSD to in some ways mimic the effect of these elements on the brain or human psyche, as developed at Cornell Medical as "human ecology" in which by effecting levels of serotonin reuptake in the brain you can sort of pull away at the fabric of why we do what we do, what motivates us. What motivates a soldier to kill? Can that same motivation be kept intact while other idealogical factors are stripped away? You can then parrellel PTSD with the effects of traumu such as date rape, and look at how different populations, ie soldiers returning from war or college girls after frat parties can exhibit some of the same behavior and are often treated with the same sorts of serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Which as it happened were developed based on the chemistry of LSD. And you can look at Carrie's character as being even more complex in what she represents as a young single woman and also a soldier still suffering from some form of PTSD. Was she also raped, in addition to the firefight in Iraq where her translator was killed? Why is the history of her illness left vague? Does it maker it easier for viewers in her demographic, let's face it, there are a lot more women 25-35 suffering from some form of social anxiety disorder than have been to Iraq, make it easier for viewers to identify with her?

Obviously with Brodie's character we're assuming that drugs such as LSD (which officially the CIA used as a truth telling serum in the 1950's but which a much larger scope of research seems to hint was either being planned to be used for much more or was used for much more, put onto Fidel's cigars for instance, planned to be widely sprayed over SF) were, in the fictional universe of Homeland, not employed by his captors. Though he is injected on camera, several times, it could be suggested to be something like adrenilin or a stimulent. But that doesn't make reference to either the Manchurian Candidate, or some of the CIA's 1950's work upon which some of that movie is fictionalized, any less relevent, since the experience the CIA was using LSD and other drugs (magic mushrooms or psilosybin) to mimic was based upon the effects of torture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.243 (talk) 18:12, 20 September 2012 (UTC) What about the whole JFK marine sniper reference, too obvious? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.72.243 (talk) 17:58, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Dubious
The introduction here says the name of the Israeli series Hatufim translates as “Abducted”. Three months ago it was “Kidnapped”. Before that, and as originally written, it was “Prisoners of War”. According to Google translate, it means “Abductees”. I gather from this comment that there is some abstruse political point involved here, but our guidelines are clear enough; we go with what is verifiable, we use common names, and we follow reliable sources. The name used by all the sources I’ve seen, including the banner shown in each episode of the series (which was developed with the input by Gideon Raff himself) is “Prisoners of War”. That is the term which most people will know, so that is what we should use. If that doesn’t completely explain the subtleties of the expression in any way, then it should be footnoted. Is there any objection to my changing this (as, for example, like here?) Swanny18 (talk) 20:01, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, it should just say what it's known as and what is sourced. (Hatufim and Prisoners of War). I'm going to make the edit now. Drovethrughosts (talk) 22:04, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks OK to me: Good! (Now we just have to wait for the squeals of indignation....) Swanny18 (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Something is wrong...
Something is majorly wrong. I don't know how one fixes this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.44.22.88 (talk) 17:16, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a lot for me to process.  Could you hold back on the details a little more? --SubSeven (talk) 18:01, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Yellow Infobox
10/2/12

The new yellow infobox has been my baby all day. I hope it looks pretty; tell me if anything goes awry. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saw1998 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Message About Full Cast/24
 * Please stop reverting the changes. I included the show 24 as related because of the link in styles/genre and producer. Also, :the full cast does not need to be in the infobox; as is customary in a show/movie with an ensemble cast. Thank you and please :be respectful, ergo, unanounced 'butchering' ...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saw1998 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but all the changes you've made besides adding a color are non-helpful and/or are simply incorrect, and borderline vandalism.


 * 1) The show name does not need to be manually italicized/bolded, it already is.
 * 2) Removing cast members for no reason. You don't get to decide who's in the infobox, all those actors are starring cast members. Do not format it your liking.
 * 3) Using an incorrect dash for the running time.
 * 4) Removing a correct link to Showtime, and instead having it link to a disambiguous page.
 * 5) Inserting incorrect picture format information along with disambiguous links for HD and SD. Showtime broadcasts in 480i and 1080i.
 * 6) 24 is not a related show. Howard Gordon and Alex Gansa wrote for it, but the shows don't exist in the same fictional universe. That's what that field is for.
 * 7) Removing the last_aired parameter for no reason, and incorrectly putting "present" into the first_aired parameter.


 * So yeah, you're not helping. Drovethrughosts (talk) 18:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The list isn't necessary. I don't want to get into an edit war, I'll be honest, that's the last thing I want. Hopefully you as well. I took out the cast & put in a link to full cast and a couple other things. Hopefully we can come to some agreement. If you don't think this is right, by all means, bring it up ::politely. You calling me names (and making a long list) is not achieving anything.
 * ---Saw1998 (talk) 00:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep the cast if you wish. I don't want to fight.


 * I'm sorry, but that list I wrote isn't achieving anything? Are you serious? I was pointing out, fact by fact, the various errors you were making, that you were oblivious to. Besides adding a decorative color and the opening theme, every single other change to the infobox was non-helpful and/or plain incorrect. Whatever, it's all fixed (back to normal) now anyway. And oh yeah, don't censor my text for no reason. Drovethrughosts (talk) 12:21, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Psychological Thriller?
The Wikipedian definition of the genre is "Psychological thriller is a specific sub-genre of the broad ranged thriller with heavy focus on the unstable emotional states of characters, in combination with mystery and thriller." (page here)

Now, I get why the series can be placed under that category, but it's not really a psychological thriller. The series includes themes of mental instability, yes, but very rarely. Take Carrie for instance, we find out she has some 'disorder,' not detailed or named, and then eight or nine episodes later it's revealed that she is Bipolar. I wouldn't call that heavy focus at all-- in fact, the subplot of her illness isn't brought up as a major focus or plot point until the last couple of episodes in the season.

But, let's figure Brody. He was a POW, and that comes with its own problems psychologically, but we never really see that taking effect at all. His actions are influenced by them, but those actions don't influence the plot of the series at all unti, the last second of the first season. The most whatever pts disorders have on him are nightmares which rarely cause problems-- never any serious ones.

We don't see emotional states taking any heavy focus of the series.

So, that begs the question, can it be considered a psychological thriller? I don't think so. I move to remove it. Thoughts? ---Saw1998 (talk) 01:15, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It's definitely a psychological thriller, all the reasons you bring up make it obvious that it is. Look any review of the show, or interviews with the cast and crew, it's vary often labeled as a psychological thriller. The original official network description of the series calls it a psychological thriller. Just Google "homeland psychological thriller" if you want more links. Drovethrughosts (talk) 12:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If you Google "Homeland Soap Opera," you find plenty of links as well. 68.97.12.88 (talk) 00:33, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Poster
The title card for the show has been changing frequently over the past few days. We need to decide on a more permanent one.

I put the poster from the article there as a placeholder temporarily.

Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saw1998 (talk • contribs) 21:51, 6 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The image used in the infobox should always be one of the title card, if available. See Game of Thrones, Dexter, Frasier, Friends, and just about any other TV show on Wikipedia. The poster was used in place of the title card when the series had not premiered, and for a time afterward, but the correct image to use is the one currently in place. Trut-h-urts man (talk) 23:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Impossible language volt
In the third series Brody learns Iranian language, Farsi, in a single week ! But even for a native Arabic speaker this wouldn't be possible. Farsi is an Indo-European language, and is as such more related to English than to Arabic. Boeing720 (talk) 22:32, 11 December 2013 (UTC)