Talk:Homerun (film)

Merging Homerun article into this one
A cursory read of the Homerun article suggests that it may be identical to this one. Someone should do a close comparison of the two articles to determine if that article has any info that is not in this one and do the appropriate merging.

--Richard 17:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, changed my mind. After rethinking what User:Themindset did and looking at the edit histories, it seems obvious that the two articles should be exactly the same because the only changes that happened after the move from Homerun to Homerun (film) were "recategorizations" by a bot.  The duplication was caused by User:Hildanknight misinterpreting User:Themindset's move as a "blanking" of his/her article and therefore reverting to a previous version.  I am in the process of explaining to User:Hildanknight what happened and why.


 * --Richard 18:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Should this article redirect? If so, to which article?
Several months ago, I wrote an article on Homerun, a 2003 Singaporean film. Previously, the article had redirected to Home run, as in baseball. Around a month after the article was created, another user added a disambugation link to the article.

In early July, I was considering leaving Wikipedia, and was wondering whether I should blank several articles I wrote, including Homerun and Google Groups.

Several days after my announcement, User:Themindset moved Homerun to Homerun (film), and Homerun was reverted to a redirect to Home run. I misinterpreted this as a blanking, and after advice from some Wikipedians, reverted the alleged blanking of Homerun. My revert was subsequently reverted. User:Richardshusr explained to me what happened on my talk page, and told me that I could discuss with other editors if I was not happy with this arrangement.

Well, I'm not happy with this arrangement. It relegates the article I wrote to the background. Bear in mind that Homerun helped Singapore win its first Golden Horse Award, and User:Richardshusr told me that with a little work, I could improve the article I wrote to a good article. Homerun (film) has a single disambugation link, directly to Home run. However, Home run does not have a direct disambugation link to Homerun (film). Instead it has a link to a disambugation page which includes a link to Homerun (film) in the list.

Under the current situation, a reader going to the Homerun article, will, after the redirect, require 2 extra clicks to get to the Homerun (film) article. Under the previous arrangement, a reader going to the Homerun article looking for the baseball concept will require a single extra click to get to the Home run article.

A reader looking for the movie will be more likely to search for Homerun without the space, rather than with, and a reader searching for the baseball concept will be more likely to search for Home run with the space. In addition, it is noteworthy that the Multiply article is about the social networking site, rather than redirecting to the Multiplication article (which does not include a disambugation link to Multiply), when one searching for Multiply will be more likely to be looking for the mathematical concept.

Therefore, I wish to know other Wikipedians' opinions on the matter to determine consensus on whether the Homerun article should be about the film, or whether it should redirect to Homerun (film) or Home run.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 15:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There should be no vote. The situation is already fixed in the way it is supposed to be: Home run (disambiguation). In the English language, the baseball definition of home run is by far the most used. Therefore, the baseball article gets the title home run and the homerun redirect. Because there are other uses of the term, the top of the Home run article tells readers about Home run (disambiguation). Kingturtle 01:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Two-way (1/0)

Three-way (1/0/0)

Homerun article about film

 * 1) Support as writer of article, and for reasons given above. This means more exposure for the article I wrote and will help it become a good article. If consensus is against this, I will support making Homerun redirect to Homerun (film), as this will not affect the exposure of the article. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 15:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. This seems to make the most sense; if someone was looking for the baseball term they can always click the link at the top. Shell babelfish 05:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Support per babelfish. Addhoc 20:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Homerun redirect to [[Homerun (film)

 * I don't know if the pump is the best place to sort this out, but if it is then I would go for this option, with a dab at the top of the article to say "for the baseball home run, see Home Run". The problem comes down the fact that the film is called homerun, without any spaces.  I don't know if it extremely common practice for the phrase "home run" to be written without any spaces, but unless it is then the all one word shouldn’t get preference when there is something that actually does use that spelling.  As an aside, you said "In early July, I was considering leaving Wikipedia, and was wondering whether I should blank several articles I wrote" - that would not really have been worth your while, not least because they could immediately be reverted again, and the fact that once you have typed or uploaded something to here under the GDFL you don't have the right take it away (thus, in theory, the quality of this encyclo can only get better, but if folks were leaving and taking their words with them then the site could very easily get worse very quickly) SFC9394 15:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Village pump is not (IMHO) the place to sort this out. An article talk page or a suitable project talk page is the right place for this discussion.  I would have preferred to have this discussion at Talk:Home run but since it was placed here, I have left a note over at Talk:Home run inviting interested editors to come here and express their opinion.
 * --Richard 17:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Create Homerun (disambiguation) and list both of them there.

 * Article titles are supposed to be based on the most common usage of a term, and, forgive me, but a Singaporean film is not the first thing someone whose native language is English will think of when they see the word Homerun. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Makes most sense to me. —— Eagle (ask me for help) 06:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Homerun redirect to Home run

 * I vote for this option. --Richard 16:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * -- Миборо в ский 01:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Homerun redirect to Home run (disambiguation)
I pick this as this is an existing disambig page. —— Eagle (ask me for help) 06:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for mediation regarding the REDIRECT of Homerun
User:Hildanknight has indicated in a recent edit summary that he intends to request mediation to resolve the "dispute" over the REDIRECT of Homerun to Home run as opposed to Homerun (film).

I'm not quite sure what mediation will accomplish in this situation. As the above "vote" shows, there is no consensus to do what User:Hildanknight wishes. If anything, the consensus is running against the proposed REDIRECT from Homerun to Homerun (film).

I have reverted User:Hildanknight's REDIRECT of Homerun to Homerun (film) back to Home run on the premise that it is inappropriate to start a vote and then plunge on ahead to implement a resolution that runs counter to the way the vote is leaning. This seems to violate the spirit of building consensus even if there is no explicit policy about it.

IMO, unless the vote count changes dramatically, User:Hildanknight should accept the result of the "vote" as "no consensus" and leave the REDIRECT the way it is (i.e. to Home run with a disambig link at the top of the Home run article). I'm sorry that this makes it more difficult to reach Homerun (film) from Homerun but the general argument seems to be that the baseball usage of the term is far more widespread than the title of a Singaporean film. NB: This statement would be true even if Homerun (film) were a feature film from a major American motion picture studio. Given that Singaporeans are a tiny minority of English speakers worldwide, the logical REDIRECT is to Home run.

That said, if User:Hildanknight does not find this argument convincing, he should consult WP:DR. Informal mediation can be requested via the Mediation Cabal, a Request for Comment can be requested viat the RFC process, or astraw poll can be conducted.

A request for mediation can be made AFTER an attempt has been made to reach a resolution via informal resolution processes. Note the following text from the Request For Mediation page.


 * Before requesting formal mediation, parties should have made an attempt some form of informal resolution; disputes that have not attempted informal resolution may be rejected with the direction to attempt informal resolution. Parties may find Requests for Comment or the Mediation Cabal useful steps prior to formal mediation. Disputes that cannot be resolved through mediation, or where the parties are unwilling to take part in voluntary dispute resolution, may be referred to the Arbitration Committee for binding resolution, including sanctions.

Formal mediation is the second last step in this process (one step short of arbitration). Arbitration is an undesirable forum for resolving disputes. It usually involves one or more parties who are so unreasonable as to be in repeated violation of Wikipedia policies such as WP:3RR, WP:CIVIL or WP:POINT.

Hope this helps.

--Richard 07:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion in search of a compromise regarding the REDIRECT of Homerun
I think the plethora of options has contributed to the lack of consensus. User:Hildanknight presented three options and five people voted. Thus, the vote count wound up being 2/2/1 but surprise, surprise, there's no consensus.

In his request for informal mediation at the Mediation Cabal, User:Hildanknight proposed three compromises...


 * 1) Homerun redirects to Home run (disambiguation). This offers 1-click disambiguation for both articles.
 * 2) Home run offers 1-click disambiguation to Homerun (film) instead of the current 2-click disambiguation. Could be used together with compromise 1.
 * 3) Homerun (film) offers 2-click disambiguation to Home run, instead of the current 1-click disambiguation. Best used together with compromise 1. Not recommended, however, as this is a lose-lose situation.

I will point out that he could have offered these compromises prior to seeking mediation but that's part of the learning process, I guess. One of the things a mediator will do is to see if a compromise can be reached.

So, let's figure out the next step. I think the problem with the first vote was based on "ideal" situations and everybody voted for their "ideal". Since that approach reached no consensus, we could offer the above list of compromises for a vote but I think items #2 and #3 above list unnecessarily muddies the issue.

I propose that we vote on item #1 with a straight up-or-down vote. So the proposal is to "Change the current REDIRECT of Homerun to Homerun (disambiguation)". An "Oppose" vote either indicates support for the current status quo (Homerun REDIRECTS to Home run) OR support for some other solution.

If we can reach consensus on this solution, we're done. If not, we'll have to talk some more. In any event, we will have to talk more to resolve items #2 and #3 above.

Support

 * 1) --Richard 17:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) I suggested it, and consider it the fairest compromise. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 10:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) --TBC TaLk?!?  23:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) -Ter e nce Ong (T 05:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Other uses of "Homerun" without the space
In his request for informal mediation, Hildanknight states ...
 * The issue here lies in the spacing of the words "Homerun" and "Home run". I have never seen "Homerun" (without the space) being used to refer to the baseball term.

A Yahoo or Google search will show that many people type "homerun" when they mean "home run (baseball)" although it is unclear whether formal publications such as newspapers ever write "homerun" instead of "home run". I wasn't that thorough in looking at the search results.

What I did find, though, was that there is support to argue in favor of Homerun (disambiguation). There are a number of instances of "HomeRun" other than just the baseball term and the movie. Not all of the following are notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia but the first one, a program on CBC Montreal probably is.

Homerun program on CBC Montreal

HomeRun Software

HomeRun Media

HomeRun Realty

HomeRun, something related to AppleScript

--Richard 17:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There currently is a Home run (disambiguation) page. We could list all the uses of both "Homerun" and "Home run" on that Home run (disambiguation), particularly if the other uses you listed are less notable. However, if the other entries are notable, we could also create a new Homerun (disambiguation) page. We could then have the Homerun (disambiguation) and Home run (disambiguation) pages link to each other. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 11:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Copied from User:Hildanknight's Talk Page
I noticed their was some conflict concerning the Home run and Homerun (film) articles dealing with the redirects and disambigs and such. I was bold in changing the other uses template on the Homerun article (see). I thought this might settle some issues. Let me know what you think.-- Joe  Jklin  (  T   C  )  04:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm quite happy with that arrangement. It was my second compromise offer when I opened a mediation case regarding the article. Hopefully there is consensus for this change. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 05:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Status of mediation case
My understanding is that the mediation case was closed due to the mistaken impression of the mediator that I (Richard Shu) was "handling it". However, the mediator was wrong because I can't "handle it" if I am one of the disputants. That would not constitute disinterested mediation.

However, in light of Hildanknight's comment above, it may be that we are converging on a resolution of this issue. At present, Homerun redirects to Home run which mentions this article in a disambig line at the top of the article. I'm not thrilled with this as I think it gives this film more exposure than it deserves. However, I am willing to drop my objections and wait and see if anybody else objects.

My question is: If this solution sticks, can we drop the other proposals (e.g. for a Homerun (disambiguation) page?

--Richard 05:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

References in Political satire section
Is The UrbanWire (used in reference 10) reliable? If not, feel free to remove reference 10, as reference 4 already covers the material.

I added four references (6-9) for the "little red dot" sentence. Among the four, which two are most reliable (or, if all are equally reliable, which two are most appropriate for use as a reference)?

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

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