Talk:Honório Hermeto Carneiro Leão, Marquis of Paraná/Archive 1

Scrolling reference footnotes
Just a note that I am about to remove the scrolling footnote list. I have no personal problem with scrolling lists, but this will likely be flagged as a negative when the article goes up for review (see this guideline, WP:Manual of Style, this guideline, and also this guideline). &bull; Astynax talk 20:20, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * My bad, thank you, my friend. --Lecen (talk) 19:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this will eventually be a good article, and I just don't want the reviewers to focus on a minor issue to criticize the article. &bull; Astynax talk 20:20, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Could you take a look in the text I just added? Thanks, --Lecen (talk) 23:25, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I gone over the new text, and have made a few minor changes. &bull; Astynax talk 08:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Changes that are very, very welcome. Thank you! I will try to add the text about rhe "Platine War" today. --Lecen (talk) 10:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Added the text of the platine war section along with a new picture. --Lecen (talk) 13:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Reference list
I noticed an automated script was used to add "name=" to the reference citations within the articles. In other articles I've edited, this has sometimes caused references to point to the wrong place in the footnote section. I don't have time right now, so it would be good if someone could check to make sure the links were not broken. I try to do so later if no one else has the time. &bull; Astynax talk 19:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Capitalization
This issue has been discussed elsewhere before, but I think it would be good to leave a note here for future reference. According to MOS:CAPS, we should only be capitalizing words when 1– they are proper nouns or adjectives, 2– a title is used as a proper noun (e.g., it is OK to capitalize when "emperor" is used in place of a specific emperor's name but not if it is used to describe the generic office of emperor that could be applied to more than one emperor), 3– styles of nobility (e.g., properly "His Imperial Majesty"), 4– the names of general movements (political or otherwise) are not capitalized, but the names of specific organized factions or organized factions are capitalized in order to avoid confusing them with more general "philosophies, theories, doctrines, and systems of thought". These are the main instances which seem to affect this article and others on Brazilian history, and I point them out because I cannot always detect if a source is talking about an individual or generic office, whether a person is a member of an unorganized movement or a member of a definite faction, etc. There is still some inconsistency in this and other articles, but my reason for mentioning it now. &bull; Astynax talk 20:47, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Removed content
I removed some of the non-vital texts to here. --Lecen (talk) 21:33, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Early years
Advancement of his [Antônio Neto] career was thwarted by his character flaws. Antônio Neto was a hotheaded with a strong personality which once even led to his arrest for insubordination.

His father [Antônio Neto] made great efforts to provide him with an education of much higher quality than would normally be expected in a family of their limited financial means.

He [Honório] was a member of a secret society called A Gruta (The Den), founded by Brazilian students at Coimbra with the primary goal of changing Brazil from a kingdom into a republic. The republicanism of Honório's youth would fade with time and eventually be replaced by staunch support for monarchism.

From judge to general deputy
He may have helped finance Honório's studies at Coimbra.

On 14 October 1826, he was named to a three-year term as Juiz de Fora (External Judge, a magistrate) with jurisdiction over the villages of São Sebastião, Bela da Princesa and Ubatuba, in the province of São Paulo.

Nothing of note seems to have occurred during his tenure apart from a quarrel with the village's military commander. The ostensible cause of the disagreement was a dispute over the boundaries of their respective jurisdictions, but in reality it was a conflict over who held power in the region.

He had a modest start in the Chamber, primarily focusing on bureaucratic activities such as on parliamentary committees.

Era of troubles
The abrupt abdication was completely unexpected.

As a minor, he was not expected to rule until he had attained the age of majority.

Honório, who was a moderate deputy, had an unobtrusive role up until this point, having been overshadowed by Bernardo Pereira de Vasconcelos. Not only was the latter the leader of the deputies representing Minas Gerais, he had also been the main leader of the Liberals in the Chamber during the 1820s.

Defender of the Constitution
Honório seemed an unimpressive figure at first glance.

Like his father, he was headstrong, opinionated, and often scathing.

First presidency of the Council of Ministers
Pedro II was offended and steadfastly refused to dismiss Saturnino Coutinho, explaining the reason years later: "I felt that the dismissal was unjust, and the way in which [Honório] Carneiro Leão insisted on it made me feel that if I gave in they would think me weak."

Praieira
Disgusted at first, Honório would later, when he again became prime minister in 1853, learn to appreciate the merits of absence of partisanship in provincial and local politics.

Platine War
Honório, who was known to take offense easily, would long remember and resent the slights he had to endure.

Despite his notorious outbursts of anger, Honório knew how to be patient and wait for the right moment to strike back.

Second presidency of the Council of Ministers
He married his son Honório to a niece of Rodrigues Torres, thus establishing a link between his family and the province of Rio de Janeiro's planter aristocracy. More important politically, he saw the saquarema cabinet formed in 1848 slowly weaken, as its ministers (especially Eusébio) became increasingly at odds with the Emperor.

Emperor wished to make amends for what he considered an injustice committed against Paraná in 1844,

He also named João Maurício Vanderlei (later Baron of Cotejipe), a young Conservative who was a rival to veteran saquarema Francisco Gonçalves Martins (later Viscount of São Lourenço) in Bahia's provincial politics. Paraná had a "score to settle" with Gonçalves Martins; in 1850, as president of Bahia, the latter had "interfered in Paraná's strategy in repressing the praieiros".

Legacy
By the early 1850s, Paraná had seen both his main foes – Aureliano Coutinho and Feijó – and their political factions fall into oblivion, while he rose to power. Eusébio, his main rival within the Conservative Party, had attempted to rally the saquaremas against his project, and failed. Eusébio and Paraná carried on their power struggle during debates in the Senate, and in the end, Paraná emerged victorious. His success came at the expense of his own party, which had divided in two groups. The first was the saquarema ultraconservative (or tradionalist) wing, then called vermelhos (reds) or puritanos (puritans), led by Eusébio, Uruguai and Itaboraí. The second was the conservador moderado (moderate Conservative) wing, which supported conciliation and was composed mostly of younger politicians who had risen due to electoral reform. The moderate Conservatives would, in the early 1860s, ally with remnants of the Liberal Party to create the Liga Progressista (Progressive League).

In theory, Paraná's initiatives for judicial and electoral reform would have ensured fairer elections, since they aimed at curtailing the corrupting influence political parties had on elections. In practice, however, the opposite happened; tamprering by the parties was merely replaced by interference by the cabinet. For more than a decade, both Brazilian parties, when in government, had exploited the powers granted by the reforms of the Additional Act and the Code of Criminal Procedure to meddle in elections through coercion and patronage. The electoral reform, then known as the Lei dos Círculos (Law of the Circles), created electoral districts (called "circles") in all provinces.

Election reform increased the reliance of candidates upon patronage from the cabinet, rather than upon the political parties and their national, provincial and local leaders. Parties (including that of the saquaremas) were also undercut by the reform's prohibition against appointed members of local judiciaries standing for office, which severely limited the pool of experienced individuals available to recruit as members and candidates. Reform also mandated that deputies be elected as representatives of specific districts, or circles, within a province, rather than being elected province-wide. The influence of national and provincial party leaders was lessened, as they could no longer put up a slate of candidates to be voted on by the whole province. Electoral reform ensured that the success of these local deputies was more dependent upon help from the cabinet than connections within the party hierarchy. Deputies needed to secure funding for projects in their districts and for other patronage in order to be viable candidates for reelection, and that sort of support was largely obtainable only through the cabinet.

The reform strengthened the executive branch to the detriment of the legislative, and the notion of parliamentary government was weakened. The government was supposed to adopt the policies put forward in the chamber, representing the will of the nation (even though in reality, the electorate consisted of only a minority of the population, as was the case elsewhere in the western world at that time). The reform allowed the cabinet to impose its will upon the nation's representatives. Paraná probably knew that the reform, as ennacted, had the potential to do more harm than good, as it gave him unprecendent control over national politics. According to Needell, "Paraná might well have seen the cabinet and its victory as his personal vindication before the party rivals and his monarch, his political triumph after the dismissal of 1844 and the second-rank status and saquarema disrespect of 1850."

Copyedit and comments
I just finished copyediting the article. It might be worth it if someone wants to double check my changes, though, I tried not to introduce more errors or change the meaning of anything, but you never know. Also, you could check the consistency of dashes and logical punctuation. This sentence might need some work since the use of the word "recent" is frowned upon: "Since his death, Paraná has been widely praised by historians and others for his political achievements, although the detrimental consequences of the electoral reform in his Conciliation cabinet were generally ignored by historians until recent years." Otherwise, the article looks great to me. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You did it perfectly, don't worry. I changed "recent years" for "recently". Perhaps it's better. I also changed of place the description of his physical appearance: now it appears far earlier, in Education section. The way it was before, it looked like he was unimpressive because he was dark haired, which makes no sense. But this is not your fault, but mine. Thak you very much, Mark. You helped a lot. --Lecen (talk) 09:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

"Honório Hermeto" v "Paraná"
I notice that the article itself refers to "Honório Hermeto" until the early 1850s, when he was en-nobled, and then "Paraná". That seems right and there is a nice link " Honório Hermeto (or Paraná as he became known)". However, the lead refers to him as "Paraná" throughout, which reads rather oddly to me, especially as he was known as such for such a short period. Is this a FA requirement? Davidships (talk) 20:37, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it is not a requirement for FA. The usage is, however, employed by some sources when looking back over his entire life. The lead, as a summary introduction, need not make granular distinctions that are explained in the article's body. The same format is followed in the Ringo Starr article and other FAs in which names have changed or been modified with titles. &bull; Astynax talk 09:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. But Starr's notability was virtually all under that name, whereas Paraná's was almost entirely as Honório Hermeto (or some other part of his natural name) in his lifetime.  So I wondered - but I won't be proposing any changes. Davidships (talk) 13:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Not reactionary, regressive
The name of the party that was to become the party of order (and then the conservative party) was Partido Regressista, aka Regressive Party, and they used the term in debates, pointing out how they wanted to reverse or "go back" on some changes. I proppose we change the parts in the text where they mention "reactionary" to "regressive". Reactionary Party would be Partido Reacionário — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.58.15.138 (talk) 19:35, 23 September 2017
 * Do you have an English language sources that use the proposed terminology? Per policy, it is necessary to follow what sources say, whether or not alternative translations make more sense to us. &bull; Astynax talk 18:48, 24 September 2017 (UTC)