Talk:Honduran fourth ballot box referendum

Referendum
I recommend renaming this "referendum". Most reliable sources have been calling this a "referendum", not a "Fourth ballot box," like in Spanish. -- Rico  05:32, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I have seen a reasonable number of English sources which use the Spanish "cuarta urna". Also, of course, Referendum would not be the correct title for this - we'd have to qualify it with Planned 2009 Honduran constitutional referendum or some such, and the "planned" part would be controversial ("I didn't plan it!"; or without, "But it never happened, the title is misleading"). This title has the advantage of being both pithy and specific. Homunq (talk) 13:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The English-language mainstream media sources that call this a "referendum" frequently are quite lazy about details and avoid the "extremist" attitude called minimal-effort-to-be-accurate-given-easily-available-sources. The 28th June poll would have been a non-binding poll about whether or not to have a fourth ballot box on 29th November which would have asked whether or not people wanted to organise a constituent assembly. The second "would" was contingent on whether or not the result of a high majority in favour on 28th June would have been enough to persuade Congress and/or the Supreme Electoral Tribunal to decide to put the fourth ballot box in the 29th Nov poll. We'd need something like What had been a possibility of 29th November 2009 Honduran Constituent Assembly referendum and the 28th June 2009 non-binding poll that had been planned. "... constitutional referendum" would be not quite right since it could be easily misinterpreted as meaning a vote about whether or not to ratify an already-known text for the new constitution. Whereas the reality is the cuarta urna would only have been a declaration saying "we the people want a constituent assembly" without any definition or suggestions for the actual process of preparing the text, consensing on it, signing it, and then finally ratifying it. It would have put political pressure on whoever won the elections to do something.


 * So the present title seems OK to me. Boud (talk) 18:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You should really write more concisely, because this is a very intelligent post -- but I didn't read it, because it looked too long.
 * After reading this, I think we should have an article about the referendum, and not the cuarta urna -- because the cuarta urna never happened, but Zelaya's pushing forward with the referendum caused the coup. -- Rico  21:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been reading the New York Times, Washington Post, Times in Britain, Associated Press, and Reuters. I haven't seen any of them using the term "cuarta urna." Do you have a link to any article referring to the "cuarta urna"? I've seen them all referring to the "referendum".
 * I've only been seeing the term "cuarta urna" used in the Spanish language media.
 * Per WP:NAME, we're only supposed to be considering what the English sources call it.
 * Click here. -- Rico  21:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As I mention below in the expansion section, why not call it Honduran fourth ballot box referendum? It encompasses both the lack of proper name in the "lazy" English press--referendum--and correctly identifies this referendum's central topic, the disposition of a fourth ballot box in the next general elections of Honduras. Moogwrench (talk) 23:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I like it. -- Rico  05:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If "a reasonable number of English sources use the Spanish 'cuarta urna'," should we call it the Honduran "cuarta urna" referendum? -- Rico  05:16, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I had actually wondered the same thing, but I didn't suggest it because I did not know if it is appropriate to have quotes in a title. I had looked around for some good examples but hadn't found any, but perhaps it would be correct to use Honduran "cuarta urna" referendum instead of Honduran fourth ballot box referendum? Part of the difficulty is that the English RS haven't been delving into too much detail on the referendum and explaining its relationship to a vote on the constituyente. I suppose it comes down to whether or not we feel understanding is enhanced by providing translation in the name. Does it help or would it kind of be like having an article on the May 5 Mexican holiday entitled "Fifth of May" instead of "Cinco de Mayo"? Moogwrench (talk) 06:34, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Simplification and expansion
this article needs to simplify the arguments from the 2009 crisis page and expand on the referendum.Should the 28th June poll have a seperate article? Cathar11 (talk) 13:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * simplify: absolutely, I agree. separate article: I think not - that's in fact the most notable part of this article, as the cuarta urna itself is obviously off the menu now. Homunq (talk) 14:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If the most notable part of this article is the poll then this should have been reflected in its name in the first place. PS did you read the sandbox created by Rico? on the crisis? Cathar11 (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Certainly, in Spanish at least, "cuarta urna" is the best available shorthand for the whole debate. It's also nice and neutral. I do understand its shortcomings - its direct referent is an event that never took place - but it's still the best name I can think of. If you have another proposed title, please suggest it. Homunq (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The 28th June poll was about the cuarta urna, so "fourth ballot box" seems a valid title to me. Boud (talk) 18:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "Fourth ballot box" is a translation of cuarta urna. The New York Times, Washington Post, the Times in Britain and the Associated Press have reported on the "referendum". -- Rico  21:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Could we call it Honduran fourth ballot box referendum (I say Honduran because other countries/leaders have also proposed a fourth ballot box like Nicaragua's Ortega)? This would conserve the English press's use of referendum, to which they have never put a proper name, while specifying that it was related specifically to the cuarta urna that was to be held later that year.  If this is the only one that they have had, omitting the year might be appropriate, or not, depending on how people feel. Moogwrench (talk) 23:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Could we write some content instead of Talk.Cathar11 (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

requested move for Chronology_of_events_of_the_2009_Honduran_coup_d'état
Talk:Chronology_of_events_of_the_2009_Honduran_coup_d'état Moogwrench (talk) 20:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Article name
This is a horrible article name. "Fourth ballot box"? That is ever so generic. 76.66.197.2 (talk) 05:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
moved to Honduran fourth ballot box referendum. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 13:54, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Fourth ballot box → ? — This needs to be renamed, since it could easily refer to a fourth item for a California ballot initiative, or something. 76.66.197.2 (talk) 06:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If "a reasonable number of English sources ... use the Spanish 'cuarta urna'," like Homunq says, Honduran "cuarta urna" referendum would seem to be both the best name, and the topic most covered by reliable sources in English.
 * The cuarta urna that never was could also be explained within this same article. -- Rico  01:19, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This also works, I suppose it is probably just a matter of asthetics. I would be just as happy with your version as the one I proposed below. Either way, the RSs are extremely limited in their treatment, so it seems to be six to one, half-a-dozen to another. Moogwrench (talk) 07:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * Please voice your support or opposition to the suggestion, along with a rationale to support your position.

Honduran fourth ballot box referendum (I say Honduran because other countries/leaders have also proposed a fourth ballot box like Nicaragua's Ortega)? This would conserve the English press's use of referendum, to which they have never put a proper name, while specifying that it was related specifically to the cuarta urna that was to be held later that year. If this is the only one that they have had, omitting the year might be appropriate, or not, depending on how people feel. Moogwrench (talk) 07:08, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Fourth ballot box of Honduras User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 08:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The only reason why I would suggest "referendum" be placed in the title to qualify the fourth ballot box topic is because (as noted above in other talk page discussions) 1) there was never a fourth ballot box because it was never "approved" by the referendum nor supported by the Honduran power structure, and 2) referendum ties it to the English RSs which almost exclusively use that word. Moogwrench (talk) 06:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Honduran fourth ballot box referendum sounds good to me. 76.66.197.2 (talk) 09:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Discuss other issues related to the rename request here.

RfC at 2009 Honduran coup d'état regarding mention of the constitutional crisis in the lede
Comments are welcome at Talk:2009_Honduran_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat. Thanks! Moogwrench (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Sections
ALBA section should be in the beginning because Honduras joined ALBA before the fourth ballot box plans. Alb28 (talk) 22:19, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Catthar11 claimed that this is an "opinion piece". It is not. It is an in-depth news article by the largest newspaper in Honduras. Alb28 (talk) 00:47, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

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