Talk:Honey Davenport/Archive 1

"Other endeavors
I wonder if we could eliminate the "Other endeavors" subsection by somehow merging the "Music" and "Other endeavors" subsections? DJing is related to music, and acting on Broadway and hosting a podcast are also forms of entertainment. Perhaps we could merge content and change the section heading to "Entertainment and music", or something? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:51, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to this. I'll take a look and do some tweaking in a moment. Armadillopteryxtalk 22:59, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What do you think of the changes I've made? Armadillopteryxtalk 23:18, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:19, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Good article?
Nice job on this article! I'm curious, do you have any interest in trying to go for Good article status? Of course, that's assuming you feel the article is complete enough and meets other criteria. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:47, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'd like to do that, but I hesitate because the prose is so short. Do you feel it's extensive enough?


 * I haven't been able to find much info to flesh out the Early life and Personal life sections, which I imagine might not go down well with a reviewer. A few of the songs off of Davenport's EP received coverage in secondary sources, but I've had to source the existence of several songs and most of her music videos straight from iTunes and YouTube. Naturally, I don't use those sources for any reason other than to record the existence/release of the music.


 * Funnily enough, the one good article I do have (Dorival Caymmi) is longer and more substantive in its prose, though due to its smaller amount of refs it's actually fewer bytes than this article :-p Armadillopteryxtalk 22:59, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , I would not worry about the length of the Early life and Personal life sections as long as they are not omitting details covered in sourcing. Some biographies just don't have much to say for these sections if sourcing does not allow. I would also suggest requesting a review from the Guild of Copy Editors before going to GAN. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:03, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm actually a (part-time) copy editor by profession. Is there something in particular that concerns you about grammar or style in this article? Armadillopteryxtalk 23:05, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , Nope!, but I submit requests here _every time_ I'm considering a Good article nomination and find the reviews quite helpful. I meant no offense, only offering a suggestion based on my nearly 100 Good article nominations. Hoping you'll take the plunge when you feel the time is right! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:10, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, no offense taken! It's not something I'm opposed to; my intuition was just that it may be overkill—especially because back in the day (when I had more time to devote to Wikipedia), I was a member of GOCE and copy edited other people's GA noms :-p I certainly don't mind if you think it's best for someone else to look through it, though. I don't have nearly as many GA-status articles as you! Armadillopteryxtalk 23:17, 6 June 2019 (UTC)


 * , I just find the outside eyes helpful in general. Usually reviewers catch something! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:19, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough! I'm fine with asking for a GOCE review. Armadillopteryxtalk 23:21, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Also, I just completed a series of edits, which I hope you'll find helpful. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:59, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I appreciate and agree with all of them except this punctuation change. I use AP style punctuation rules, which I find suitable for this article on an American subject. I hope you don't mind if I put the period back inside the quotation marks! Armadillopteryxtalk 23:02, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , Ok, I think the other way is preferred but I'll let GOCE/GAN reviewers decide. :) --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:08, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I just looked into this and read MOS:LQ. I'm not sure if this has changed since I last read it (years ago) or if I just missed that the Manual of Style prescribes logical quotes in all circumstances. I'll go through the whole article and make sure it complies with that. Armadillopteryxtalk 23:25, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:28, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Did you have a source for this edit? I don't recall any information about her religion from the sources I've seen. Armadillopteryxtalk 09:58, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , Oops! I may have been editing this article and Monique Heart's at the same time, and gotten them mixed up. I'll remove. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:37, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay! Thanks. Armadillopteryxtalk 23:40, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Do you feel the lead ought to be expanded if we are to nominate this article for GA status? Ideally I'd like it to have a bit more length, though I'm not sure what would make sense to add there. Do you have any ideas? Armadillopteryxtalk 10:25, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Update: I've made some changes now—could I have your thoughts? Armadillopteryxtalk 13:17, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think this article is looking pretty great overall! I'd consider submitting a request for review by the Guild of Copy Editors and maybe also posting a note at WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race letting editors know you're considering GA status and asking for any feedback. Might not get any bites, but sometimes doesn't hurt to ask. Great job on this article! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:41, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hoping these additions are ok as well. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:10, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Fine by me! Thanks. I'll post at WP:GOCE and the Drag Race WikiProject page. Armadillopteryxtalk 16:16, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , Wonderful! Hoping WP:RPDR may have its first Good article soon. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:53, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I will do my best! :-D Armadillopteryxtalk 16:59, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Infobox genres
I think inline citations are needed for the genres. Sources should specifically describe their music as such (not just individual works or songs). --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:52, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll go back through the sources and see what I can dig up :-D Armadillopteryxtalk 23:00, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:01, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Error at Wikimedia Commons
Does someone know how to fix the error message at commons:Category:Honey Davenport? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 01:00, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This seems to have been resolved. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:02, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Article structure
First of all, this article is wonderful. I just wanted to share a thought or two on article structure for consideration. Should "Career beginnings" be part of a general Career section, and not early life? I noticed for this article what would normally be a Career section is currently "Drag career", but there's other info here about music, media appearances, etc. Sure, most of the subject's notability comes from their drag career, but I guess I'm wondering if there's a way to have a "Career" section with subsections for drag, music, media, etc. If that's not really possible because their work is too mixed and not really easily defined into these buckets, I understand. Just something to think about. Thanks again for your work on this article! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:00, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it would actually be better to rename the "Drag career" section just "Career". The reason I put "Career beginnings" in the "Early life" section (and the reason I initially used "Drag career" instead of just "Career") is that everything in the Career section (including music and acting) corresponds to work done in drag (and credited as "Honey Davenport", not "James Heath-Clark"). The "Career beginnings" section ends at the point the drag began, basically. That allows the changes from male pronouns/male name to drag pronouns/drag name to line up exactly with main section headers (i.e. Everything in "Early life" and "Personal life" uses Heath-Clark/he, and everything in the lead and "(Drag) career" uses Davenport/she. Do you think this is a good approach?
 * Also, thanks for your kind words! Armadillopteryxtalk 17:49, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I don't feel strongly about changing/moving content, especially if the content you've added makes sense and you're comfortable defending during the Good article review. I was just trying to anticipate possible concerns (such as having "Career beginnings" text outside the "Career" section), but your argument makes sense as well. 'Twas just something to consider. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I've made some (admittedly light) changes bearing in mind the good point you made; do you feel they've made the article any better or worse? Armadillopteryxtalk 09:15, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , Better! Thanks, --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:43, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Gender
Just curious, in your research did you come across any preferences re: gender pronouns, such as he/him/his for Heath-Clark and she/her for Honey Davenport? I only ask because so many other drag queen articles clarify pronoun preferences. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 01:13, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * None that spoke about pronouns specifically, but I seem to remember some interviews in which Davenport refers to herself as a gay man and to her drag persona as a woman (not for the sake of clarity about gender, just in passing while e.g. telling a story). I know we've had to carefully source pronouns in articles of non-binary performers like Aja and Eureka, though I don't recall as much in articles of those who are male out of drag and female in drag. Do you feel strongly that Davenport's pronouns should be sourced? If so, I can go back through the refs and see which ones mention gender, though it might take a little while. I wouldn't be opposed to clarifying gender identity in all drag performers' articles, actually, but I'm not sure if everyone has adequate sourcing available. Armadillopteryxtalk 09:59, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , I understand and was just curious. I agree, pronoun preferences should be sourced when possible, but this cannot be done for all individuals. Thanks. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:12, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Imitation is the highest form of flattery?
First sighting of a mainstream news article paraphrasing our lead! It says, "Honey Davenport, the stage name of James Heath-Clark, competed in season 11 of RuPaul's Drag Race but the performer, singer and activist is best known as a fixture of the New York City nightlife scene."

The lack of italics in the series title, odd choice of "competed in season 11", missing comma before the conjunction, and overall awkward phrasing break my heart a little, though ... Armadillopteryxtalk 07:41, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

This page has gotten out of hand.
143 sources for an obscure drag queen? This page is absurdly lengthy, and is clearly the work of an obsessed fan. My completely reasonable tagging of this page as "Overly Detailed" was reverted without an explanation.--71.213.91.3 (talk) 03:37, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, this article has been vetted by the community and meets Good article standards. You're welcome to continue sharing your concerns here on the talk page, but stop removing the good article icon and adding templates when other editors disagree with your assessment. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 03:45, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

So you're going to completely reject my concern without even acknowledging that there's a problem? This article literally has dozens more references than the page for the 12th president of the United States, Zachary Taylor. 71.213.91.3 (talk) 03:01, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, well that speaks to the weaknesses of the Zachary Taylor page. Are there specific details you think should be removed from this article? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 03:16, 18 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
 * Please note that the length, level of detail, and number of unique sources in an article don't correlate with how famous/notable/well known a subject is. They correlate only with how much time and research volunteer editors felt like putting in. Also note that not all sources provide equal amounts of information: in the case of Zachary Taylor, I'm sure you can see that some of the sources are entire books. A book can easily provide the same amount of information as hundreds of short news articles. Almost all of the sources in Honey Davenport are short works that provide only a handful of facts each. What counts is the depth of coverage, not the number of citations. Zachary Taylor is so widely covered by long works that just a few of them suffice. With Honey Davenport, that isn't the case, so we combine lots of brief sources to get the same amount of information. In an ideal world, all Wikipedia articles would cover their subjects as thoroughly as we cover Honey Davenport and Zachary Taylor, but unfortunately that is not the case.
 * The thing is that virtually everyone who edits Wikipedia is a volunteer, only doing this out of fun and personal interest. This means that most articles fall short of many of our editing standards: they are too short, lack coverage of relevant aspects of the subject, have poor grammar, experience frequent edit warring, etc. Often, the more famous a subject is, the more traffic its article gets, the harder it is to keep the article up to date, and the harder it is to keep the article stable.
 * If you compare the Honey Davenport article to other drag queen biographies, you'll notice that no other Drag Race contestant's page has achieved Good article status, and one big reason for that is that those articles are woefully incomplete. In an ideal world, every one of them would be more fleshed out, contain more sources, be written more professionally and with better grammar, etc. I happened to take on the Honey Davenport article almost by myself, because I felt I could manage the quantity of sourcing available about her on my own. I couldn't even imagine combing through all there is to read about someone like Katya or RuPaul or Alaska without help. Getting those articles to GA status will likely require a team of devoted editors who know what they're doing, have a ton of free time, and are familiar with all the ins and outs of editing Wikipedia, including core policies and the Manual of Style.
 * Are you interested in learning Wikipedia editing policies and contributing to the project? Since you've edited this page, maybe you would be interested in WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race, a project dedicated to improving all articles related to RuPaul's Drag Race. We are always happy to welcome new editors who can help us bring more drag-related articles to this level. Though I don't presently have more than a few minutes a day (if that) to spend on Wikipedia, I'm always happy to answer questions and offer guidance—and so are lots of others involved in the project! Armadillopteryxtalk 09:18, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Too Long/Excessively Detailed
I mean no disrespect to Honey Davenport, but this article is longer and more detailed than the Wikipedia pages for some countries, let alone other drag queens. It seems disproportionate to her level of notability. 69.119.69.199 (talk) 16:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Notability only determines whether an article on a topic should exist, not how short or long that article should be. If there are specific details or sections that you feel may need to not be included, please feel free to bring those forward. But in general, the article is not excessively long as per WP:SIZERULE. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:10, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand, and I may have phrased it wrong. My point is that it feels like a resume/advertisement, and that it gives the air of someone writing their own Wikipedia page. 69.119.69.199 (talk) 22:53, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you have specific suggestions, then share them, otherwise this is just drive-by criticism. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 23:20, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

To add
Armadillo pteryx  19:20, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * https://variety.com/2023/politics/news/drag-march-los-angeles-protest-lgbt-center-1235577407/
 * https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/drag-march-los-angeles-easter-1234710222/
 * https://variety.com/2023/politics/news/drag-march-los-angeles-lgbt-center-1235574575/
 * https://sports.yahoo.com/easter-drag-march-set-los-191336703.html
 * https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/greater-la/drag-march-la-james-beard-westwood
 * https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/greater-la/drag-march-la-james-beard-westwood/honey-davenport
 * https://www.losangelesblade.com/2023/04/05/easter-drag-brunch-protest-march-in-weho-this-weekend/