Talk:Hongi Hika

Untitled
There are a number of words in the article that are unknown to people who do not speak New Zealand English. For example, is there any reason to use Pākehā instead of European? I understand how the term 'Pākehā Māori' as Standard English doesn't have an accurate translation of the situation. Iwi (tribe) is also supportable since it is a political term with some uniqueness. But rangatira (chief) and taua (war party) seem very much like one to one matches for their English counterparts.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts. Ashmoo 02:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * When I was writing it I thought it was better to use more precise non-English terms which were defined and would become familar to the reader because of the frequency they appeared - however if i was to die in a ditch over any term, it would be Iwi. Rangitira I agree is essentially interchangable with chief and though Taua is less cumbersome than war party, i'm not too concerned. Actually I'd more like to keep the reference to Nietchze you deleted, as I think it provides an interesting example of how an apparently barbaric insult can actually show some insight, (evidence after all being the religon spread most rapidly amongst oppressed peoples such as slaves and women). I thought that captured part of the essence of Hongi Hika's contradictory image - a savage obsessed with military sucess, and the astute and prescient observer of cultural collision.  What do others think?Winstonwolfe 05:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It sounds like we are in agreement on most things. And I do agree with your analysis of his Ntchze-like quote. Unfortunately, it's considered original research according to wiki rules. If some other notable writer has made the connection, then include that. Otherwise I think we just have to include Hongi Hika's quote and let the read judge his insight for themselves. Ashmoo 05:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * While I would cheerfully claim it as my original research, then argue against the boundaries of deletionist original research rules, I'm afraid it was merely an observation. Winstonwolfe 02:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

emerged from myth?
I'm not happy with this phrase: "when Māori history emerged from myth and oral tradition..." - anyone willing to improve? Seems to me that its the merging of pakeha into NZ history is the key thing about this period. Moving from oral to written history is hardly significant itself...--Snori 19:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what you mean by the merging of pakeha into NZ history. If you mean the begining of pakeha settlement the apragraph and the article both stress the importance of Pakeha settlement, and Hongi Hika's involvement.

To my mind Hongi Hika is a vital figure at the begining of recorded Maori history - in the sense of a contemporary written record. By way of comparison, this places him in the same context as Themistocles in Greece, (c.f. Theseus), or Alfred in Britian, (c.f. Arthur). I think it is significant to record that status. However if there is opposition to the phrase in the introduction, it could be moved to another position int he article. Winstonwolfe 02:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

who translated Hika by fish ?
the word Hongi indeed means "smell" but also refer to the maori custom of rubbing noses to say hello, thus enabling people to smell each other the word Hika cannot come from the word ika (fish) (I wonder who has first given this translation of the maori name ?) hika means rubbing hard like in making fire from wood sticks... also sexual intercourse...

so the name of Hongi Hika could came from the fact that he was hard in his nose rubbing but see also :kahika, ancient; a chief of high rank (Tregear in nzetc)

stefjourdan@caramail.com


 * I am not sure of the original source but note the same comment on this site which predates the Wikipedia entry.  Certainly your translation would make more sense - it would be good to find some authoratitve answer (unfortunately for translators the relatively small Moari vocabulary seems to have lead to more multiple meanings/puns than in English :-). Winstonwolfe 05:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

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