Talk:Hooded Swan

The Brian Stable Website
I have found a number of links to the Hooded Swan books at The Brian Stableford Website. These contain the American and British covers, the cover blurbs and a very brief note on each of the books. Would anyone object if I were to try to add these links to the end of this article? There are also a couple of book reviews on Swan Songs on the net. Again, would anyone object if I were to try to add these to an External Links section? abdullahazzam 3rd January 2007 15:41pm (UTC)
 * Post the links here, please. Veinor (ヴエノル(talk)) 15:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The links can be found here, at Swan Songs: The Complete Hooded Swan Collection. If it is usable, a single link to this page should be sufficient to cover the entire series. abdullahazzam 3rd January 2007 16:31pm (UTC)
 * See WP:EL, links normally to be avoided, number 11: Personal webpages. Veinor (ヴエノル(talk)) 16:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I can see your point with the fansite, although it does provide a few bits of information not available elsewhere. What about the reviews? Would these sites be considered recognisable? abdullahazzam 3rd January 2007 16:57pm (UTC)
 * The issue is that the review might not have a professional quality, if you get my meaning. If you could find a review in a major publication, that'd be great. A review in a self-published site... that's probably not so good. Veinor (ヴエノル(talk)) 16:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I understand that point, I think. I'll provide some examples here.


 * Infinity Plus - Richard Hammersley
 * SF Site - George T. Dodds
 * The Alien Online - Andy Sawyer

abdullahazzam 3rd January 2007 17:14pm (UTC)
 * I think that those look good; anybody else want to weigh in? Veinor (ヴエノル(talk)) 17:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

As per Veinor's agreement, I am adding the above three links to the External Links section - for now, and as long as they are agreed upon. abdullahazzam 7th January 2007 17:04pm (UTC)

Astrobiology
The Hooded Swan books refer frequently to a subject known on Wikipedia as Astrobiology aka Exobiology, the study of possible life on other planets. I believe that it would be germaine to have a link somewhere within the body of the article to this subject, but I am not quite sure where to put it. Suggestions? abdullahazzam 3rd January 2007 15:41pm (UTC)

Probably a good idea...

Maybe link it in under the destcription of Grainger as an expert in alien environments? Or maybe part of the initial description could include that there's a strong emphasis on astrobiology?

Wandering Ghost 16:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I just checked another article, Extraterrestrial life, and this has even more to say on the subject. I'll think about it and see if there is somewhere where it can all fit in comfortably.

The Hood
I've also been mulling over the subject of 'the Hood', the device that connects Grainger to the Swan. It's basically a two-way brain-computer interface that replaces the pilot's senses with the senses of the ship, so that the pilot can feel and act as if the ship were part of his own body.

Is all of this worth a 'See Also' section with maybe three or so entries? abdullahazzam 3rd January 2007 16:48pm (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about the general procedures and standards of the 'See Also' category, but maybe. Another option is to put the Hood and the discussion of how many ships are flown with the help of brain-computer interfaces in the Ships section (though I think there's also manually flown ships - at least I got the impression that the liner jockeys Grainger complains about it don't actually interface).  Wandering Ghost 22:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The article as it stands is consisely written, neat and clean. I wouldn't want to damage this article by bulking it out in the wrong places. I am kind of hoping that maybe Veinor might have some ideas as to where to put something like this. (Feel free to comment if you are, Veinor.)

Unfortunately I don't have the books to hand. I was hoping that someone who does might be able to look up what Stableford says about the Hood. It should be found in Halycon Drift, the first book.

I also thought about William Gibson's Neuromancer, where he coins the phrase 'simstim' to describe the way that a person's senses can be overlaid with the sensory data of another person, so that you experience what that person is experiencing. Obviously this is not quite the same, but it is close.

I think that some brief discussion is merited within the main body of the article, as it is really the Hood that makes the Hooded Swan the Hooded Swan. abdullahazzam 7th January 2007 17:17pm (UTC)

P.S. Please also check out the God Helmet and Telepresence for more related topics. abdullahazzam 10th January 2007 14:35pm (UTC)

I too have thought about adding a section on the "flight controls" of the Hooded Swan and other ships in this universe. After all, the way in which he flies by feel (as opposed to the "liner-jockeys" and "pram-pushers" for whom he has such contempt) is very much part of how Grainger sees himself and how others see him. However my attempts felt clunky and I cancelled them.

I believe it is clear that the sensor hood, spinal electrodes, pilot's cradle, control levers etc. of the Swan are basically standard equipment on spaceships in Grainger's world. In Halcyon Drift when Grainger first sees the Swan's controls, he seems to recognise all the features, and is merely startled by their size and complexity. Grainger already has the interface electrodes implanted in the back of his neck, and in The Paradise Game this enables a complete stranger to recognise him as a pilot, so they must be fairly standard. In Chapter 5 of Promised Land there is a passage that confirms that the hood at least is not unique to the Swan: There's no way to explain what things look like or feel like inside an ordinary ship's hood, let alone the Hooded Swan's RB1956 12:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Schehrazade Issue 28
Schehrazade Issue 28 reviewed for Infinity Plus by Nick Jackson, carries the cover from Swan Songs and an interview with Brian Stableford in which he mentions the series. There isn't much on the books but I just thought I'd mention it, having seen the magazine while passing through Borders. abdullahazzam 9th January 2007 11:22pm (UTC)

Drive Systems
Although most of the recent edits seem for the better, there are two things I think warrant at least some discussion, if not outright reversion.

First, to my knowledge, p-shifting is explicitly Probability shifting, not Phase-shifting. This comes from the following text, in the first book:

"Whichever of the various gimmicks you employ to beat the Einstein barrier -- tachyonic transfer, probability shift, dimensional hopping -- it all amounts to the same thing -- if anything gets in your way, you have to go through it."

(Of course, the Grainger books are occasionally inconsistent, but I don't _recall_ anywhere in the book they referr to it as anything different).

The same quote's also why I listed tachyonic transfer as the 'method' of going faster than light, rather than mass relaxation, but I suppose that's a judgement call.

Also, do you (or anyone) happen to have a cite for Javelin being a dimensional hopper? I know Fire-Eater was, but I can't recall anything that said Javelin was - I always assumed it was mass relaxation, perhaps because of Grainger's familiarity with it, but I can't find a reference for that either. Wandering Ghost 12:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd better put my hand up here, and take responsibility for editing "Probability Shifting" to "Phase Shifting". I did not have a Wikipedia account at the time, so my edit was anonymous and non-accountable; my apologies. My reference for "p-shift" and "p-shifter" standing for phase-shift and phase-shifter is "Promised Land" (Chapters 4 & 5), in which the White Fire is described as a "phase-shift yacht", and as making a "p-shift" to "zero-phase" (normal space) as she approached Chao Phyra. It seems Brian Stapleford was inconsistent in this matter.

I edited "Tachyonic Transfer" to Mass-relaxation because when Grainger asks delArco about the Hooded Swan's drive in "Halcyon Drift" Chapter 4, he refers to it as Mass-relaxation. Also in the scene where Grainger and Eve Lapthorn are looking out over the spaceport at Hallsthammer, Grainger compares the size of the Swan to the "other" mass-relaxers. I suppose it is a judgement call, but the section heading is "Engine Types".

My reference for describing Javelin as a dimension-hopper is Chapters 23 and 13 of "Halcyon Drift". On rereading the passages I find that this is not explicitly stated; I had inferred it from the descriptions of the engine damage. According to the Prologue of "Halcyon Drift", Grainger chose Javelin because she was the closest human ship to Alachakh and Cuvio's ship Hymnia, and she is referred to as a dimension-hopper in Chapter 23. Certainly Javelin could not have been a mass-relaxer, because with a maximum speed of around 50,000c, the Hooded Swan is described by Grainger as being "faster by a factor of ten than any other mass-relaxation ship I'd ever heard of.", but when discussing how Javelin went down he says "She was just snatched out of my hands at twenty-five thou.", so clearly the ship was much faster than contemporary mass-relaxers. In any event, in Chapter 3 of "Halcyon Drift" Grainger specifically states that he'd never flown a mass-relaxer before the Swan. Grainger is fairly dismissive of p-shifters: "P-shifters don't have many advantages, you can't take them hardly anywhere, but at least they go wrong discreetly."(The Fenris Device, Chapter 3), so I think the balance of evidence is in favour of Javelin being a dimension-hopper. --RB1956 04:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. You've convinced me on the Javelin (technically, your inferring might count as OR, but I'm thinking it's not that big a deal), and you're right, although 'tachyonic transfer' is the _method_ of FTL, 'mass relaxation' is probably the drive name.


 * For p-shifters, yeah, I'm betting that's one of those inconsistencies that crop up from book to book... what say we compromise and put in both names? It could be both are in use, referring to different aspects of that particular technology.  Heck, maybe it's even a slang term... 'probability shifters, because probability has to be shifted in your favour to get anywhere with a phase shifters' or something (of course, such theories would be inappropriate for he main article).


 * Oh, and welcome to Wiki. Always nice to run into someone else who's actually heard of the books. ;)  Wandering Ghost 17:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Aviation Feel
I'm very much a Wikipedia beginner, so I'm going to throw this idea out here rather than just dumping a new section into the article. Comments are very much invited.

I have felt, ever since I first read the Hooded Swan novels back in the '70s, that they have a strong "aviation" feel rather than the "naval" or "merchant naval" feel of a lot of other SF. To put it another way, Grainger feels like the pilot of an aircraft, rather than the helmsman of a ship. One example is the way Grainger remains in the cradle for the entire flight, relying on intraveinous feeding and drugs to keep going rather than going "off watch". He always seems to land on a planet to rest.

It seems to me that the background and feel of the books, and the character of Grainger himself, have a great deal in common with the aviation adventure thrillers of the '60s. Books like Gavin Lyall's "The Wrong Side Of The Sky" and "The Most Dangerous Game" come to mind. Tough, sardonic, competent pilots flying (often reluctantly) by the seat of their pants through bad weather, to short rough airstrips far from well-charted routes, without much in the way of navigational aids were staples of the genre, as were dodgy employers with their own agendas, flawed sidekicks, corrupt law-enforcement and Cold War politics. Spotting the parallels with the Hooded Swan novels is left as an exercise for the student...

However, this is very much my opinion, and I've never seen any reference to Brian Stapleford being influenced in this way, so I'm not at all sure that any of this is appropriate content. RB1956 13:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

cover art on the HS paperbacks
pretty sure it's by chris foss, throughout the series. one of them ('promised land') is shared with a vangelis album, 'hypothesis', released without the big man's permission by giorgio gomelski.

duncanrmi (talk) 20:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)