Talk:Hoodoo (spirituality)

Part of speech
I removed the reference which claimed that "I can still hear that old hound dog barking, chasin' down a hoodoo there" (from the Credence Clearwater Revival song) was an example of hoodoo used as an adjective. It isn't.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.91.43 (talk) 20:29, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Folkways
The repeated use of the term "folkway" (a coinage which never entered the popular lexicon) is both pretentious and deleterious to this article. 74.127.90.179 (talk) 04:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)


 * It is not a "coinage" at random. It is a well-known and well-defined word in the lexicon of sociology. It has been in wide use in that field since 1907 when an entire book on the subject was published by an Ivy League professor, and there is an Encyclopaedia Brittanica article about both the word "folkway" and the book Folkways (1907). So what's the beef? Are we restricted to only the use of "coinage" which has "entered the popular lexicon"? I know of no such rule for Wikipedia articles, otherwise, the articles on Chemistry and Biology subjects would be scant and thin indeed. Moreover, the usage is not pretentious, it is accurate and precisely correct in the way in which it is used here IMO. And, in what way is it deleterious? Make your point, don't just let it dangle there unexpounded. How does the use of the term "folkway" cause "harm or damage" [definition of deleterious] to this article? JoGusto (talk) 11:41, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Archived Conversations
Conversations over one year old have been archived. To read these conversations, please see the archive box at the top of the page. Thanks. GooferMan 21:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Deleted Other Artists and Folk Humor
I deleted these sections because they do not contribute to our of blues singers in relation to Hoodoo. However, this section needs work as well it needs to be flushed out with more detail that will explain the relevance of the the Hoodoo/Blues connection. GooferMan 18:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Deleted references to etymological origins of Hoodoo
I have seen different etymologies for the word. The most popular being it's either an Ewe influence related to Vodu, Voodoo, or it's a Hausa word related to hu'du'ba. I'm not an African linquist but I've studied linguistics long enough to know that the latter is a stronger argument. I don't mind seeing the reference to African etymology in the text but there needs to be some sort of documentation and references. I don't have the sources that make these arguments so I can't quote them here and thus removed the reference in the article in order to conform with NPOV. It's interesting to note that regarding the association of Hoodoo as linquistically related to Voodoo, Zora Neale Hurston contributed to this belief in her book Mules and Men by stating that Hoodoo was Voodoo according to white people. However, Just because some white folk don't always understand the practices of other cultures doesn't mean that their misunderstandings determine the the true history of the word.

In short, I'd like to recommend that we not refer to the etymology at all since it contributes little to the article. It doesn't reveal much about Hoodoo as a socio-cultural reality'. Even a linquist will admit that there is a lot of guess work in etymologies of this sort. GooferMan 18:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

--

"I don't have the sources ... and thus removed the reference ... in order to conform with NPOV."

Correct me if I am wrong, but that's not what NPOV is about. What you are describing is "unreferenced material", material without citations for their source. NPOV can occur even when the material is sourced, but does not overall accurately reflect a consensus view of the issues presented. JoGusto (talk) 11:12, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Deleted Reference to Hoodoo in Africa
In following with my point about the linquistic origins of Hoodoo, I deleted the sentence referring to Hoodoo being a well accepted and current practice in Africa. I am not arguing that this is not the case, but we have had no discussion or documentation of sources regarding origins. I think this would be an relevant, and interesting discussion to have. We will have to sort out what specifically in hoodoo is of African origin and what is of Native American and European origin. Too often I read people who write about the African origins without citation. It's as if they are saying, "if it's a predominantly black tradition, then it must come from Africa." Again, I'm not saying that it's not African origin, but asking what parts of it are African origin? Why is it not African American origin? Or, why is it specifically indigenous African origin and Muslim African origin? I certainly see a lot of similarities between hoodoo and Muslim magical practices from North Africa, and many of the slaves were Muslim, as well as indigenous. Point being, we need a discussion and documentation.GooferMan 22:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Hoodoo is a Natchez/Choctaw/Chickasaw word. maybe creek at this point. anyway, just to clarify for those who have seen "roots," Indians were slaves. not slave-owners, ever. the scene in roots with the creek dude buying someone at auction was probably the underground railroad at that time, seeing as how at that time there were hyanusee's or whatever the word is for free-towns in the southern Appalachians, where muskoki speaking people met haudenossee speaking people after their families had escaped northeast to the Appalachians going upriver from the plantations in Louisiana where Indians, Africans, and south-Indians were enslaved by a few wealthy families, who did not represent the status quo of the Louisiana purchase at the time. circa 1700's ad. yoruba African religion was similar to hoodoo. different, but similar. and later there was cultural conglomeration between hoodoo religion and yoruba belief systems/religion. maybe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.60.150.143 (talk) 05:33, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "Natchez/Choctaw/Chickasaw word. maybe creek"? Reliable sources or it doesn't count. I've been a linguist all my adult life, with a doctorate in the subject, and this smells of "Well, I heard it somewhere, or something like it, so it must be so." Compare
 * https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/hoodoo
 * https://www.etymonline.com/word/voodoo
 * https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hoodoo
 * https://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/irish5.html
 * https://www.odwirafo.com/Akan_Origin_of_the_Term_Hoodoo.pdf
 * --Thnidu (talk) 01:13, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Subsections Television, Games, Sports, and Military History
Before I get to cut-happy with deleted irrelevant sections, I propose that we eliminate the subsections Military history and Sports. Neither of these sections contribute to our understanding of hoodoo. If someone has information on the use of hoodoo on the battlefield by soldiers, that would be an great thing to include under the section. Same with sports. However, again these sections as they stand now are documentations of the use of the word and not a documentation of the tradition or its influence in history. GooferMan 19:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I haven't heard any responses to the contrary, so until we can connect these sections to how they are important to our understanding of hoodoo, I've deleted them. here they are in case we want to replace them:
 * Television Supernatural, a television series on the CW network, has referred to the practice of hoodoo in a few episodes during its second season. "Playthings" refers to the use of a five-spot symbol as protection, and "Crossroad Blues" contains references to goofer dust and using a hoodoo-like ritual to summon a demon to a crossroads to make a pact.
 * Games Hoodoo (and Voodoo) are a central part of the plot to Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father, an adventure game released in 1993. A hoodoo stick, hoodoo bow and jinxed hoodoo skin are all items in World of Warcraft. Also, in Rayman 3: Hoodlum Havoc there is an enemy named a hoodoo, and has the ability to go invisible and cast forcefields at will. In the Global version of MapleStory, there is also a Monster named Hoodoo in the Halloween Town. In the latest Nancy Drew video game, "The Legend of the Crystal Skull", Hoodoo is one of the central themes.
 * Sports In English, Australian, and New Zealand sports journalism, the word hoodoo is sometimes used to refer to a team's inability to achieve a certain goal - such as beating a particular opponent or winning a certain trophy. This usage jokingly implies that there is some supernatural force preventing the team from doing so and derives from the false notion that hoodoo magic consists only, or primarily, of curses. For example, the Gloucester Rugby Club is said to have a hoodoo against Bath Rugby Club, having failed in to beat Bath RFU in the English league at the Rec (Bath RFC Home Ground) in their 134 year history.
 * Military history The first battleship of the United States Navy, the USS Texas, commissioned in 1895, was referred to by nickname as the "Old Hoodoo" due to a series of incidents that occurred after she was commissioned that gave her a reputation as an unlucky ship. The code letter "H" that was assigned to the Texas at that time may have also contributed to the inspiration. At the battle of Santiago, Cuba, on July 3, 1898, the "Old Hoodoo", in the words of a contemporary New York Sun article published shortly after the battle, became the "Old Hero".
 * GooferMan 18:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Before I get to cut-happy with deleted irrelevant sections, I propose that we eliminate the subsections Military history and Sports. Neither of these sections contribute to our understanding of hoodoo. If someone has information on the use of hoodoo on the battlefield by Bath RFU in the English league at the Rec (Bath RFC Home Ground) in their 134 year history.


 * Military history The first battleship of the United States Navy, the USS Texas, commissioned in 1895, was referred to by nickname as the "Old Hoodoo" due to a series of incidents that occurred after she was commissioned that gave her a reputation as an unlucky ship. The code letter "H" that was assigned to the Texas at that time may have also contributed to the inspiration. At the battle of Santiago, Cuba, on July 3, 1898, the "Old Hoodoo", in the words of a contemporary New York Sun article published shortly after the battle, became the "Old Hero".
 * GooferMan 18:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Books section revised -- and why i did it
I have taken the liberty of breaking the books section into non-fiction and fiction.

I have also deleted the reference to "Mama Zogbe" as an author, since i can find no books by her -- or, indeed, any mention of her outside of this wikipedia article and its various internet clones.

A google search on the terms


 * < "mama zogbe" hoodoo > turns up only 25 pages

-- and all of them are clones of this article. Just as a reality-check for notability, a google search on


 * < "emma bull" hoodoo > turns up 250 pages,
 * < "harry middleton hyatt" hoodoo > turns up 425 pages
 * < "newbell niles puckett" hoodoo > turns up 450 pages
 * < "jim haskins" hoodoo > turns up 1,150 pages,
 * < "ishmael reed" hoodoo > turns up 3,380 pages,
 * < "zora neale hurston" hoodoo > turns up 5,350 pages,
 * < "catherine yronwode" hoodoo > turns up 6,380 pages.

I therefore have decided that either the Mama Zogbe reference was a spoof or Mama Zogbe is not a notable writer on hoodoo.

Sorry for interfering, but it was bugging me.

cat yronwode (yes, me) Catherineyronwode 07:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

added section "Hoodoo Conceptual System"
I added the above section and two subsections "Moses-as conjuror" and "bible-as-talisman". My goal was to add some more description to what hoodoo is by discussing some of the underlying symbolism and worldview. I'm missing a quote that I haven't been able to track down, in Hyatt's book vol 1 Hoodoo-Conjuration and soforth, there is an informant who says something along the lines of, "if I cross someone, and it works, then it happened with God's permission." This isn't exact but just an approximation. If any of you have access to this book and find it before I do, can you add it and the citation in the sentence marked (citation)? I think Hyatt even mentions this quote in his introduction if I remember correctly.GooferMan 21:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Gypsies and hoodoo??
Until we get some documentation, I've deleted the reference to Gypsies practicing hoodoo. I don't think that there is an historical record of this. However, recently there are a number of sources that pretty much anyone can use to learn these practices. Therefore, if there are a number of gypsies that use hoodoo (and not just the individual who added the word), then we should perhaps deal with it in a new section. . . something like "Prevalence in Contemporary Culture". GooferMan 18:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * please refrain from using racial slurs. Stregamama (talk) 04:43, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * From the Wikipedia article on Romani people: "The word Gypsy in English has become so pervasive that many Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names." and "However, the word is often considered derogatory because of its negative and stereotypical associations."
 * It's seems pretty clear from this, when taken at face value, that the usage of the word "Gypsy" doesn't necessary carry connotations of racism or disrespect, but the point is taken. However, the term "Gypsy" is widely recognized as an exonym for Romani peoples, and in a way that is self-claimed [by Romani people in sufficiently numerous instances] not to be an offensive slur, so it still seems appropriate to use it as a link between the people being discussed and the hoodoo subject of the article. Agree? Disagree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoGusto (talk • contribs) 11:27, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

New Section, "Cultural Influences"
I added a new section on cultural influences. My thinking is that we need three sections to discuss each of the three regions that the article claims had an influence on Hoodoo: Africa, Europe, and Native America. I am not versed enough in African or Native American influences to write those sections, so I just included Europe. I have two other grimoires to talk about, I'll add them when I've finished them.GooferMan 02:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Delete Differences between Hoodoo and Voodoo
I propose that we deleted this section. Though the words sound the same, we all know that they are very different. I think that the article is developed enough that a reader will be able to tell the difference by reading it, then reading the article on Voodoo. I think part of the reason people always confuse them is that they are always spoken of in tandem. If we stop this now, we will reinforce their independence from each other. Does the article on Christianity have to have a section called "Differences Between Christianity and Judaism"? That's why there are separate articles for each topic. GooferMan 02:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I would prefer that you leave the "Differences" section in place, revising it as you see fit. See the very first scomment on this talk page. It's an ongoing prolem, and ignoring it will not change the need for disussing it.


 * By the way, thanks for the splendid job you are doing on the article. I noticed that you need a cite for the Pow Wows refernce. If you want, you can cite my online book "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice." Wikipedia allows citations from web books published by people who are already recognized and print-published authors in the field.


 * Cordially, cat yronwode Catherineyronwode 04:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * hoodoo voodoo, and juju are all the same thing24.254.77.203 (talk) 02:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Etymology
I can't find where it is explained in the article the exact etymology of "hoodoo." Badagnani 02:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Badagani . . . First, my apologies for the late reply on your comment. Please see the explanation above on why the etymology of the word 'hoodoo' is absent.  In short, it is difficult to establish an exact etymology.  I think the old etymology deriving it from the word 'voodoo' has come into disfavor. Instead, the view that it is from the Hausa word related to hu'du'ba - "to arouse resentment, produce retribution" - has become more prominent. However, if you search the terms 'hoodoo', 'etymology', and 'Irish' you'll find an interesting argument for the Irish origins of the word.  There's too much guess work in etymology for my skills.  However, it would be nice to get some documentation and references on the subject.  As yet, no one has stepped up to provide a thorough case for the etymology.GooferMan (talk) 21:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Quotations
Are the quotations in this article word for word from their references? And how valid are the references? Quoting African Americans in this way seems pretty racist to me. If you were quoting a mexican american, you wouldn't write the quote with a mexican accent. These quotations do not fit within an educational article and should be replaced with something else. Meskarune10:11, 4 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.66.211.91 (talk)   —Preceding unsigned comment added by GooferMan (talk • contribs)
 * The quotations are indeed word for word from their references. Moreover, the references are entirely valid and arguably the most authoritative sources on the subject (Hyatt and Huston are at any rate).  These are direct quotes from a folklorists trying to document both the beliefs and the dialect of their informants.  Because of this, the quote as written is acceptable in an educational article. GooferMan (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

quote from hoodoo practitioner
While I have no evidence as to whether or not the whole thing is a joke, I think this should be written in proper English, rather than how it might have sounded due to the persons accent. It's demeaning and simply not accurate. We know they would have been saying "that you" and not "da' chew". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.146.124 (talk) 10:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

---separate two cents: I agree. my great great grandpa was a hoodoo man of creek-Chickasaw-Choctaw-natchez run-away from Louisiana to the hills in Tennessee where he took on a nativized English street name as a last name with his bro-han. the most annoying thing about this whole article is the misinfo propagated, and the fact that hoodoo is of swamp indian origin, while voodoo is a hybrid word of vodun and hoodoo as far as I've been able to deduce. I mean it all makes sense, hoodoo was in Louisiana before the French claimed it, and then later runaways and people were brought there bringing buju and vodun. hoodoo+vodun might = voodoo. i'd say that the quote may or may not be a joke, keep in mind in the era when this quote was collected, there was often literal 'as-heard-scripting-of-writing' albeit, somewhat non-accurate, I think both parties were trying to be good people, as is usually the case everywhere in everything. I mean, I know if you've ever been to anywhere where there are alligators, there are sometimes just people I can't even understand. but i'm a youngster, too. do know of hoodoo tho. that's a plus....


 * No, the quote is not a joke. And if you follow the reference you can see that there is a significant scholarly work dedicated to hoodoo and the people who practice it.  While Hyatt may have been an amateur folklorist, he worked hard to document these practices and beliefs AS WELL AS the manner in which his informants spoke.  Many of these interviews were recorded and then later transcribed and he did a fairly good job at capturing the dialect of his informants.  He was no professional linguist, so the methodology of his transcriptions can be criticized, but NOT the fact that he chose to capture their dialects as honestly as he could.  To do otherwise, to give his informants perfect English, would have been dishonest.  And what, by the way, is demeaning about capturing the way someone speaks?  As someone raised in an area where people speak in a similar fashion, and as someone who speaks similarly with some family members, I find this direct quote neither personally nor academically demeaning.  The only argument to be made is that those who look upon others who speak this way with scorn are the ones who most often feel that a direct quote of this type is demeaning.
 * There is no argument to be made in favor of FALSIFYING the manner in which this informant speaks by transforming it into 'proper' English! GooferMan (talk) 20:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure there is. A lot of us don't speak Ebonics, or Afro-English, or whatever it is. The dude, while it may sound like "chew" clearly means the second person pronoun and not the action of mastication. There's a difference between having an accent and mangling the language. Presenting the quotation in deliberately incorrect phonetics is insulting to both the source, and the language, and, like the above mentioned, the mark of an amateur. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.217.25 (talk) 20:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a quote from an historically significant book. That is the way the author presented the material he collected, which is here being quoted. Do you propose to regularize the usage and style of, say, Robert Burns' deeply dialectic poetry as well? 74.83.14.59 (talk) 10:53, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

What on earth does this mean?
"Hoodoo shows obvious and evident links to the practices and beliefs of African folk magico-religious culture. The Hoodoo practiced in the U.S. by the enslaved Africans was brought from West and Central Africa, specifically, the area that is now known as the Congo and Angola, Togo, Nigeria and other West African regions."

OK, first of all - African folk magico-religious culture? What, pray tell, is this? Is there some kind of unitary religious/magical perspective which comes from being African? Also, the claim that Hoodoo comes from "specific" parts of "West and Central Africa" - not backed up with a citation, by the by - undermines itself by describing a vast stretch of the African coastline as being the "home" of Hoodoo, from the far southeast past the Bight of Benin, an area comprising a large number of cultures, languages, religious traditions, etc. This is a paragraph with pretensions to precision, but under the bluster it's pretty well devoid of content. So I'm deleting it. 99.245.254.91 (talk) 20:01, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Regarding My Post Addition Attempts and Their Subsequent Reversions
Hello everyone,

I am trying to post this addition. If there are any objections, please voice your concerns or any areas in which there are factual problems. Otherwise, please do not remove my additions. Here is the addition as I would like to add it:

Moses & The Old Testament on Conjuring/Witchcraft/Wizards/Mediums
Although hoodoo draws on the Old Testament for many of its ideas, in many places the text of the Old Testament itself explicitly condemns use of some methods that hoodoo employs. Take, for example, these excerpts from the Book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (two of the five Biblical books received by Moses himself on Mount Sinai:


 * "...You shall not practice augury or witchcraft" (Leviticus 19:26).


 * "Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God" (Leviticus 19:31).


 * "If a person turns to mediums and wizards, playing the harlot after them, I will set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people" (Leviticus 20:6).


 * "When you come into the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer.  For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you.  You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.  For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you so to do" (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

These are only some of the places in which hoodoo practices are Biblically condemned; in fact, these citations are all from books that Moses is believed to have written down himself. Considering the weight that hoodoo believers give to Moses-as-conjuror, this is an important point to recognize. These views are based on an ancient Jewish understanding of the laws that the Jews (then Israelites) believe were given to them by God through Moses. If the Israelites believed that God gave them these laws through Moses and the laws contradict some aspects of hoodoo belief, it is therefore necessary that the hoodoo belief that Moses (and, by logical extension, God) is a conjuror (in the hoodoo sense) should be called into question as a Biblically supported idea. This is even more necessary considering the explicit condemnation present in the Bible, the same source from which hoodoo believers draw their ideas of God- and Moses-as-conjuror. Such a contradictory set of viewpoints stemming from the same source must be carefully scrutinized.

---END OF ADDITION---

Once again, please let me know what the issue(s) is/are... if there are no posts within 12 hours, I will re-post my addition.

Divineofficer (talk) 05:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Divineofficer, the works of Hoodoo involving Bibliomancy and Bible-as-Talisman are different from traditional definitions of 'mediums, wizards, augurs, sorcerers, witchcraft, divination, etc.' (I am trying to work out Leviticus 20:6 from the Ancient Hebrew to a better English understanding. The verse speaks of 'prostitution' towards mediums, etc. in the ancient Hebrew text which is a turn away from God. In Hoodoo reading, their is guidance asked from God himself for knowledge and clarity into a situation.) I state this because in these types of works, as stated in the original article, God is always in control. The 'black arts' or 'black magic' that is spoken of refers to attempting to summon demonic forces or false gods for power whereas Hoodoo, at least in all of the works I have studied, is sort of a physical representation of prayer. To state that these works in their entirety is considered an abomination would conflict with ideas such as holy water and annointing oils used in the Church to this day. These are actually practices used in Hoodoo as a petition to God and His angels who protect us. Do not confuse Hoodoo with the forms of witchcraft and sorcery that were used during the timeframe in which Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written (approx. 1450-1400 BC). 128.221.224.57 (talk) 08:04, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * To summarize my reasoning for the above response, the addition of the section regarding "Moses & The Old Testament on Conjuring/Witchcraft/Wizards/Mediums" is:

(1)Not relative to the subject of Hoodoo as an academic article towards the subject, and; (2)Biased based on perspective of the translation of the terms "wizard", "medium", "sorcerer", "divination", "soothsayer", "augur", "conjurer", etc. The definition of these terms, originally written in Hebrew from the timeframe of 1450-1400 BC, must not be skewed to represent a generalized idea of what the English language interprets the definition to mean almost three and a half millenia later.128.221.224.57 (talk) 08:20, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Divineofficer. Please read WP:OR and then see if you can find a secondary source on Catholic/Hoodoo interelationship. Fainites barley scribs 16:56, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Another Explanation
OK Fainites, here's the thing: Wikipedia's WP:OR section says (and I quote), "...primary sources are permitted if used carefully. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."

Here are some quotes directly from the current wiki article:

"The goal of hoodoo is to allow people access to supernatural forces to improve their daily lives by gaining power in many areas of life, including luck, money, love, divination, revenge, health, employment, and necromancy."

"Contact with ancestors or other spirits of the dead is an important practice within the conjure tradition..."

Here's the definition of necromancy according to dictionary.reference.com/browse/necromancy: "1. a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art; 2. magic in general, esp. that practiced by a witch or sorcerer; sorcery; witchcraft; conjuration.

Now, after that small bit of critical thinking, here is a direct quote from a primary resource in its original context with no interpretation:

"There shall not be found among you any one who... practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you" (Deuteronomy 18:10-12).

Isn't that pretty cut and dry? It doesn't seem that there is any need for a secondary resource.

P.S. I didn't mention Catholic teaching in this post at all because it is not called for. I merely cited a primary resource and directly quoted from it to show a bit of ideological conflict (namely that Moses, the man who wrote Deuteronomy, from which this direct quote is taken, and who hoodoo teaches is a conjuror, explicitly condemns the very practices that hoodoo employs). I'd say that's a pretty serious factual flaw in this article.

Divineofficer (talk) 18:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah but the article shouldn't argue with itself! The bit you quote describes Hoodoo. Hopefully that bit is properly sourced as a description of Hoodoo. The next point is - what if any is the relationship with Catholicism? There is material, apparently sourced, which claims Hoodoo borrowed a great deal from Catholicism and that many people comfortably practice Hoodoo and Catholicism side by side. The point I am making is - if you say the Catholic Church teaches differently - you need a secondary source about this subject - not quotes from the bible. There should be some sources as I believe the Catholic Church has spoken out on these matters and there have been issues about the state recognition of Vodou, for example, in Haiti. What you really can't do though is take bits of a primary religious text and use it to illustrate a current church's views on another religion.Fainites barley scribs 20:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply
Fainites, if the beliefs of hoodoo and those presented in the Bible are at odds, it is inevitable that the article will argue with itself! On the other hand, one can take it as a balanced representation of hoodoo beliefs and the weak points of their belief system. If they use the Bible as a source of teaching, they should understand what it actually says about their practices!

This is even more dire when one considers that Moses, who they present as a conjuror, wrote down the first five books of the Bible (commonly called the Pentateuch). Leviticus and Deuteronomy are two of those first five books. If the content of those books condemns hoodoo practices (by name, no less!!!), then that must be made known as part of a balanced approach! If this is done with direct quotes and without any interpretation necessary, then there is no reason to exclude it from the article... indeed, no interpretation is needed! It is explicitly stated in the primary resource (which hoodoo believers themselves use today)!

Furthermore, in this hoodoo article, there is no previous mention of Catholicism anywhere that I could find. If this is not present, I find it unnecessary and inappropriate to introduce the Catholic view on hoodoo.

However, in the voodoo article, which infers strong connections between Catholicism and voodoo and additionally implies an acceptance of voodoo practices by the Catholic Church, there is a basis for speaking about Catholic teaching. These are separate articles.

For this separate article on hoodoo, in which no mention of Catholicism is previously made, I cannot justify a mention of Catholic teaching or, therefore, any citation of Catholic thoughts. This is about the primary resource. They are citing it from ancient times, and so am I. I'm doing no different than they are.

Do you see what I'm saying yet? It's not about interpretation. They say Moses is a conjuror. Moses says not to conjure. They are necromancers. Moses wrote down that his people are not to allow necromancy. It's right there in the same source they use... fair is fair!

Divineofficer (talk) 21:35, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * But this article is about Hoodoo. It's not about what the Bible says that can be interpreted as contrary to the practices of Hoodoo. Fainites barley scribs 22:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Another Reply
So Fainites, you're saying that, if the Bible says "necromancy is an abomination" in a few Biblical books that Moses wrote down (I can easily find a reliable source that proves he did) and hoodoo says "we practice necromancy," then it's OK to keep that as an entry in an encyclopedia like Wikipedia?

If hoodoo believers say "Moses is a great conjuror" and Moses (in his writings, in the Bible) says to his people (essentially), "don't conjure" and "worship God alone" (not some snake or your ancestors), then we should take hoodoo believers at their word and ignore what Moses told his people about God's laws?

That's akin to your father telling you not to smoke or roll cigarettes, and then later in life someone telling you that your own father was a great smoker and cigarette roller! Shouldn't we take Moses, the very man himself, at his word?

If, as you seem to think, this is not the place to make a correction to the reality of the situation, then where is a good place? Should I create a new Wikipedia page devoted to the Biblical stance on conjuring, necromancy, divining, charm-making and usage, and the like? If the answer is that simple, please let me know ASAP!!!

Even if that's the case, both sides of the issue should be represented in this article.

Divineofficer (talk) 01:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not a question of "sides". It's a question of sources. There will undoubtedly be an article on Moses already. Certainly you may create a page on the Biblical stance on these matters but not sourced from your interpretation of the Bible! Fainites barley scribs 10:28, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell you what Divine, we could ask the reliable source noticeboard or the no original research noticeboard.Fainites barley scribs  17:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Moses didn't write anything. All the Pentateuch was written down much later, after centuries of oral and written transmission. Copied here from Torah:
 * The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian captivity (c. 6th century BCE), based on earlier written sources and oral traditions, and that it was completed with final revisions during the post-Exilic period (c. 5th century BCE).


 * Any claim that Moses wrote anything had better be supported by indisputably reliable sources, and at least acknowledge the disagreement of the scholarly community with that fundamentalist fringe belief. :--Thnidu (talk) 01:25, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Film
What about Angel Heart? --BjKa (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

been reading this, and while it's all well and good to bandy about the vagaries of languages, hoodoo and voodoo, while different, are still tied together at the hip here in mississippi. (wearing a hoodoo fetish around my neck as i type this.) 58 year old white male, been around different places here and beyond, and while the practice of voudou isn't as prevalent here in the edge of the hills and in the mississippi delta as it was once, it's still here. so is hoodoo. a "hoodoo" is still used here and there, no matter what the language. here, it came from blacks and indians, and where they got it from is so lost in the fog now one will ever know to a point of being irrefutable truth. many of the mexicans here also are ... afraid?... of a hoodoo. as are many blacks. some whites are also. maybe this, maybe that, it's still around. not sure if i'll say i believe, but i'm just going to hedge my bets. for my two bits worth though, i'll say i believe that hoodoo, and/or the word, came from celtic europe and africa both, with celtic women being enslaved and bred with black slaves until it was outlawed. from there it came on in on the backs of slaves through the carribean and blended with native american beliefs and such.Zeropointstatik (talk) 03:40, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

"...anyway, just to clarify for those who have seen "roots," Indians were slaves. not slave-owners, ever. the scene in roots with the creek dude buying someone at auction was probably the underground railroad at that time, seeing as how at that time there were hyanusee's or whatever the word is for free-towns in the southern Appalachians, where muskoki speaking people met haudenossee speaking people after their ..." I read that while sitting here about five miles from where indian chief Greenwood Leflore had his plantation headquarters, owning slaves and himself being a prominent businessman in central and north Mississippi. Been living around here in the hills and delta most of my life, and the words i have in parentheses above just ain't so. now if yall will excuse me, it's midnight, and i have some hoodoo stuff do do here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CF71:6F90:C495:F667:284:9058 (talk) 06:02, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

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Reliable sources
This article cites a number of sources that may be unreliable (WP:RS) or questionable (WP:QUESTIONABLE). WP:SCHOLARSHIP states that, “Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable.” Some are self-published (WP:RSSELF, WP:SELFPUB).

The following are not scholarly works and may be unreliable or questionable sources not appropriate for an encyclopedia:
 * McQuillar, Tayannah Lee, The Hoodoo Tarot. Destiny Books, 2020
 * Zepke, Terrance. Lowcountry Voodoo: Beginner's Guide to Tales, Spells and Boo Hags. Pineapple Press, 2009
 * Hyatt, Harry Middleton. Hoodoo—Conjuration—Witchcraft—Rootwork. 5 vols. Western Publishing, 1973 - possible self-published (WP:RSSELF, WP:SELFPUB)
 * Alvarado, D. The Voodoo Hoodoo Spellbook. Weiser Books, 2011.
 * Felix, Talia, The Conjure Cookbook. Createspace, 2010 (WP:RSSELF, WP:SELFPUB)
 * Felix, Talia, Voodoo Conjure. Createspace, 2010 (WP:RSSELF, WP:SELFPUB)

There may be more unreliable sources, but this is a start in cleaning up the references. Unless someone can show that these works meet the Wikipedia guidelines for a reliable source, they will be deleted. - Epinoia (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Witch Burning
Any references to burning Hoodoo practitioners like those in Puritan New England ? A comparison would be something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liberty5651 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

"In popular culture"
There had at some point been a great section about Hoodoo featured in popular culture.

This entire section was scrapped on 16 July 2017 by a user with the remark "removing unreferenced information".

Now, I don't want to start a silly edit war but I found this information quite interesting and useful. In fact, it's the reason I revisited the article.

Shouldn't this be reinstated? Despite this user's remark, many entries gave information where the hoodoo occurs, sometimes even citing song lyrics. How exactly should this information be referenced anyway? With a timestamp for songs and movies? With a page number for stories?

I could be wrong, of course, but I have the impression this user simply didn't like the section for whatever reason and removed it wholesale. This is not the approach I value with Wikipedia and I find this excision of good information regrettable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack L Rains (talk • contribs) 18:59, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Information that is not referenced can be removed at any time, without discussion. Any items that are returned should have reliable, verifiable sources attached.  What this article does not need is more unreferenced or poorly sourced information.~TPW 18:27, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Transatlantic slave trade
The article states, "Approximately 388,000 enslaved Africans from various ethnic groups were transported to North America from the 17th to 19th centuries" - that number seems low - the article Atlantic slave trade states, "Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years." - not all of those went to North America - I don't have any reliable sources at hand to check how many were sent to North America - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 19:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I found a source on the Library of Congress website that estimates about 400,000 African people came to the United States during the transatlantic slave trade. https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/immigration/african/beginnings/ Another source from a museum states about 450,000. https://www.abhmuseum.org/how-many-africans-were-really-taken-to-the-u-s-during-the-slave-trade/ Sources vary on numbers.


 * ok, thanks - Epinoia (talk) 21:50, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Capitalization of Black and white
It looks as if Black - meaning someone of African heritage - is sometimes capitalized and sometimes is lower case. It seems white is always lower case.

It would be great to have an approach that is consistent throughout the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:32, 4 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree. Carlstak (talk) 20:52, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Tone issues in article, needs more scholarly sources
A lot of this article reads like an opinion piece rather than an objective overview of a spiritual/religious practice. Lots of links to non-academic, opinion articles from places like Cosmopolitan and Vice, particularly in the "Hoodoo vs. Marketeered Hoodoo" in the article. I feel like a section on the commercialization of hoodoo practices is fine to have in the article but it needs to have a more academic tone and not read like a personal essay. Passages like this particularly stand out to me as an example of this-

"The New Age community is known for appropriating the spiritual traditions of people of color and spreading misinformation online about Hoodoo. To correct the narrative, some African American women created social media accounts on Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and other platforms to inform their communities what is and what is not Hoodoo. The African American women interviewed primarily use Hoodoo for healing."

"Many of the spells in the white witch community were appropriated from Hoodoo, such as honey jars, love spells, binding spells, and many hex (curse) spells come from Hoodoo.[339] White witches publish books about hexing and love spells as though they do not come from Hoodoo. These authors do not give credit to the origin of the spells they are writing about. This is problematic, because it is implying that African Americans do not have a culture rooted in spirituality, and that Hoodoo is all about how to use spells to get rich and harm people, making Hoodoo a trend. This furthers the stereotype that the practice of Hoodoo is a selfish form of magic. In addition, social media has become a hub for this kind of appropriation. These authors are making money on Hoodoo which is a tradition that has its beginnings in slavery."

These are very subjective statements and I'm not sure if the belong on Wikipedia. There are a lot of very definitive sounding statements that are unsourced and feel like personal speculation on the part of the author. There is a lot of serious, scholarly research on folk magic beliefs and practices, including hoodoo, out there, and I think this article would really benefit from consulting those resources.

--Mothpriest (talk) 21:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

capitalization
I noticed that the capitalization of this topic was inconsistent throughout the article, and after reviewing the etymological source (Merriam-Webster), I opted to be bold and make the use of the word lower case. I recognize that capitalization carries emotional weight for some individuals, and I encourage discussion based on sources to arrive at a consensus if this bold decision doesn't sit right with some. (If a consensus to revert is reached, please note I made a few other typographical edits which should be preserved.)~TPW 18:24, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I have seen the word capitalized in several scholarly sources, and some sources it changes from lower to upper case depending on the meaning. Also the deletion of the section on animal sacrifice was not explained. There is historical evidence that animal sacrifice is a part of Hoodoo in historical records and archeology evidence. The deletion of that section was not explained by True Pagan Warrior. It should be restored because there is plenty of evidence that animal sacrifice is a part of the practice. It shouldn't have been deleted. All the sources from interviews with African Americans who practiced hoodoo said they sacrificed chickens. Hoodoowoman (talk) 19:11, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The removal of much of the animal sacrifice section was not intended; I apologize for that and I am glad you noticed it. On capitalization, I again invite discussion to arrive at consensus.  The phrase "hoodoo is sometimes spelled Hoodoo" is a distinction without a difference, and would be confounding to anyone using a spoken word form of this article.--~TPW 17:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The distinction of traditional African American Hoodoo and the commercialized hoodoo needs to be understood. Traditional African American Hoodoo created by enslaved Black people in the United States include a variety of practices from burial practices influenced by Bakongo and Igbo people, spirit possession by ancestral spirits and the Holy Ghost, animal sacrifice, the ring shout, pouring of libations, African American quilt making, African-American folklore, the tricking or the folk magic part, and other practices. Commercialized (marketeered or tourist) hoodoo does not include these practices. It's selling candles, oils and other things. Also, some white witches and non-blacks think hoodoo is about spells and lighting candles for love and money, hexing people and jar magic. There are some older and younger African-Americans that practice Hoodoo the traditional way, such as, only using oil lamps or only using white candles for conjure because 7 day glass encased candles and colored candles were not used on the plantations during slavery. Colored candles and glass encased candles were used for conjure in the 20th century. African-Americans gathered plants from their back yards and used local dirts. However, I am still unsure which way to go with the spelling of the word. A few sources capitalize Hoodoo throughout some scholarly articles and books. Others lowercase the word, and others go back and fourth between upper and lower case. In this Wikipedia article I was thinking to make a distinction between traditional Hoodoo of Black America and commercialized hoodoo that developed in the 20th century which is marketed as traditional hoodoo. Hope this helps Hoodoowoman (talk) 13:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)


 * It's not especially helpful, as I was hoping for "a discussion based on sources," which to me means linking to those sources.~TPW 14:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Choosing to use capitalization to make a distinction between uses of the word seems like a terrible idea, however, because it completely excludes anyone who uses text-to-voice services from knowing that it's done at all. Capitalization has no pronunciation in English, and the solution to that is to make better word choices that will make the context clear.  I do look forward to see those sources you left unnamed in your comment, however.~TPW 14:03, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, I understand making Wikipedia accessible to others who may not be able to read and have to listen to an audio version of the article.
 * And here is a list of scholarly sources that capitalize the word Hoodoo.
 * 1. BTGH.pdf (state.la.us)
 * 2. Religions | Free Full-Text | Looking for Black Religions in 20th Century Comics, 1931–1993 | HTML (mdpi.com)
 * 3. Mojo Workin' - Google Books
 * 4. 4.6-11HoodooReligion.pdf (jpanafrican.org)
 * 5. The Problem : Religion within the World of Slaves | Current Anthropology: Vol 61, No S22 (uchicago.edu)
 * 6. AfricanSpiritualityInAmerica_ThesisPaper.pdf (osu.edu)
 * 7. PowerPoint Presentation (osu.edu)
 * 8. Rutgers-Camden Scholar Clears up Misconceptions about Hoodoo | Rutgers University
 * 9. Project MUSE - MOJO WORKIN’: The Old African American Hoodoo System by Katrina Hazzard-Donald (review) (jhu.edu)
 * 10. UI Press | Katrina Hazzard-Donald | Mojo Workin' (uillinois.edu)
 * 11. The Hindu in Hoodoo: Fake Yogis, Pseudo-Swamis, and the Manufacture of African American Folk Magic | Philip Deslippe - Academia.edu Hoodoowoman (talk) 03:49, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I had to redo this because the links didn't show up for you to click on and read them in the previous post. Here are sources that capitalize the word Hoodoo. 1. https://www.crt.state.la.us/Assets/OCD/archaeology/discoverarchaeology/virtual-books/PDFs/BTGH.pdf 2. https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/10/6/400/htm 3. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mojo_Workin/FL05AUXiW18C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=capitalization 4. http://www.jpanafrican.org/docs/vol4no6/4.6-11HoodooReligion.pdf 5. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/709843 6. https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/78339/AfricanSpiritualityInAmerica_ThesisPaper.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y 7. https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/78329/African_Spirituality_Poster_Final.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y 8. https://www.rutgers.edu/news/rutgers-camden-scholar-clears-misconceptions-about-hoodoo 9. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/580442 10. https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/?id=p078767 11. https://www.academia.edu/7713281 Hoodoowoman (talk) 01:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

In this source this author goes back and forth between upper and lowercase spelling of the word Hoodoo. They use Hoodoo when discussing the traditional Hoodoo of Black America, and hoodoo when discussing the appropriated modern version. https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/handle/1808/14527 Hoodoowoman (talk) 01:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Contemporary Black Popular Culture
— Assignment last updated by Lbhatt6763 (talk) 04:37, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: ARH 371_The TransAtlantic_Cross-Cultural Representations
— Assignment last updated by Elizabethhawkins21315 (talk) 03:34, 25 February 2024 (UTC)