Talk:Hops/Archive 2

Another copyvio
This section contains useful information, but it has been lifted from here without editing. I don't have time right now to rewrite. Anyone keen? SilkTork 17:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Harvest
Harvest begins by late August (in the northern hemisphere) and may last just over a month depending upon the size of the farm and the varieties being harvested. It is a very busy time when farm crews double in size and often work around the clock. Hop vines are first cut about one meter. (3-ft.) above the ground by an implement called a bottom cutter, which is attached to the front of a tractor. Within minutes the vines are cut from the overhead support wires by a machine called a top cutter. The hop-laden vines fall into truck beds or trailers, which transport them to picking machines located nearby. Typical picking machines can pick three to six hectares (7.5-15 acres) of hops per day, depending upon the variety and operating time. Hop vines enter the picking machine at the feeding station where vines enter upside down. Hops and leaves are stripped from the vines, with the vines passing through the picking machine to the back of the system. Once there, the vines drop into a chopper and are turned into mulch, later to be returned to the soil. Leaves and hops fall through a traveling wire mesh and onto a conveyor which takes them through a series of cleaning devices that remove the leaves and stems from the hop cones. Stems and leaves eventually are conveyed to trash, while the hops are cleaned and recleaned by a network of screens, drums, and dribble belts.

Drying and Baling
A typical kiln floor is approximately 100 sq. m. (1056 square ft.), and will be evenly covered to a depth of a little less than one meter (approximately 1 yard). Traditionally hops rest on a floor that is covered by a loosely woven burlap cloth although some new kilns have metal floors with tiny holes through which hot air may pass. Oil and gas burners heat the air to a temperature of about 60 to 74 degrees Celsius (140 to 165 degrees Fahrenheit). It is then forced through the bed of the freshly picked hops for about nine hours. During this time, the hop cone will lose up to 70% of its green weight and retain a moisture content of only 8-10%. Once dried, cool, moist air is forced through the dried hops while still on the kiln floor. Conveyors then move the hops to a cooling room where they are allowed to continue cooling for 12-24 hours. During this cooling period, moisture spreads evenly throughout the hop cones. After cooling, hops are conveyed to hydraulic balers that press the product into 200-pound (90-kilogram) bales. Bales measure 20x30x55 inches (51x76x140 cm). Within 48 hours from the time the hops were harvested in the field, they are placed in cold storage warehouses. Hops undergo comprehensive quality inspection. Bale lots, consisting of 200 to 400 bales, are sampled and inspected by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). Core samples from each lot are sent to the USDA certification laboratory where the samples are analyzed for leaf, stem and seed content. Each lot is then issued a certificate documenting its percentage of leaf, stem and seed content.

To do
Progress – Developed as a replacement for Fuggles, this has a higher alpha rating, and is often found in combination with Goldings.

Saaz – The Bohemian hop, used in almost all Czech pilsners. It gives a soft bitterness, so IBUs can be high without harshness. The aroma is famous, and a fresh Pilsner Urquell is still the best place to learn it.

Santiam – Aroma variety with mid-range alphas.

Select - Disease-resistant Spalt substitute

Simcoe - High alpha variety with piney notes and a rounded bitterness. Has made increasing appearances the past couple of years, in both pilsners and ales.

Spalt - Noble hop, with a fine, spicy aroma. Used in all manner of German-style beers both ale and lager. Is the signature hop for altbier.

Sterling - A Saaz hybrid, similar to Saaz in character but easier to grow and higher yielding.

Strisselspalt - Classic French aroma hop, used mainly in lagers. Fairly neutral character can be tough to detect, but is similar to Herbrucker.

Styrian Goldings – Actually derived from Fuggles, but grown in more continental conditions. I find them spicier, and more elegant than Fuggles, while retaining the delicious woodsy character. Used in a wide range of beers, from English ales to witbier and both English and Belgian strong ales.

Target - Multiuse mid-to-high alpha hop from England. Parentage is from Kent Goldings.

Tettnang – Classic hop of North German pilsners, Tettnang are used for both bittering and aroma (though the latter is often in conjunction with some form of Hallertau). Bitterness from Tettnang is rich, yet soft, so brewers can really crank up the IBUs without rendering the beer astringent.


 * RateBeer hop quide
 * Hop data

What is an "elegant, refined taste"?
Humulene imparts an elegant, refined taste and aroma to beers containing it.

This phrase is vague. Something cannot taste "elegant". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JoeyJoeJoe70 (talk • contribs) 03:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Yet taste is frequently described as elegant. Would you prefer "humulene imparts a taste that is frequently described as elegant" ? OliAtlason (talk) 03:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Saying something tastes elegant is just plain silly. It's like saying something tastes like justice, or hope. These are abstract concept. You can't bite them so they don't have a flavor. 74.77.128.175 (talk) 19:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Is this the thing that gives beer the someone-pissed-in-a-glass taste? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.6.18 (talk) 30 Nov 2008

Female and male flowers
No mention of which flowers are used in beer – my understanding is that it's only the female flowers. Is that correct? If so, why?--Richard New Forest 12:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The cones are female. Male flowers are smaller, white, and spindly. They start as a closed ball, which opens. Similar to the yellow dandelion, but smaller and whitish. Flowers may be dried and added to fermenting beer. The bittering alpha acid comes only from boiling the female cone. Most western Euopean countries where noble hops are grown do not permit the cultivation of male plants. All propagation is done with rhizomes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.79.151 (talk) 06:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

In brewing the term "flowers" means whole dried female cones. They are seasonal and less efficient at bittering, so large breweries tend not to use them. Smaller brewers claim they have a flavor advantage over powdered pellets. Wet hops are whole cones that have not been dried, and must be used within a week of harvest. Their bittering potential is only 1/6 of pellets. My understanding is that "hops" refers to the entire plant, no just the cones.203.219.69.194 (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hop Crisis
Would a section on the current hop crisis be pertinent? Blockader (talk) 18:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Anecdote: Hops Related to Cannabis
Read this interesting botanical anecdote, that these plants are relatives. Maybe worth integrating into the article? Reb42 (talk) 06:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, that may belong in Hop (plant) if it's not already there, but it's really not as interesting as a lot of people make out. They are only related in that they are both members of the Cannabaceae family, along with about 170 other species.  They're not as related as many people think (I assume people think they're more related because of the family name). -- Mark Chovain 07:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I read in high times mag that hopps are in fact the closet to pot. More so than any other plant. I think that it should be noted some where in the article. Hopps does have a chemical make up close to THC also the mag stated. Rippey574 (talk) 06:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The article on the Cannabaceae family states that the current Cannabaceae family comprises the former families Cannabaceae and Celtidaceae. It explains that the International Code of Nomenclature for algae, fungi, and plants rules require that combinations of families take the name of the oldest family included, which in that case was Cannabaceae.  So just because Humulus (hops) and Cannibus are now included in a larger family now called Cannabaceae, this does not mean that the plants are any less related.  Humulus and Cannibus still form a clade within the current Cannabaceae family and are more closely related than to each other than to the other members of the new family (the species formerly in the family Celtidaceae).  (Note that the article on Cannabaceae uses the abbreviations s.s. (sensu stricto) and s.l. (senso lato).  See Sensu.)  Combined with research that Cannibis and Humulus have been successfully grafted resulting in THC production, the two plants should be reported as being more similar to each other than to other plants.  (See "Cannabinoid formation in Cannabis sativa grafted inter-racially, and with two Humulus species", Phytochemistry, Volume 14, Issue 2, February 1975, Pages 409–412.)  DGGenuine (talk) 16:13, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
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Split:list of hop varieties
The Hop Varities section is basically one big list, and I think the article would be neater if most of this list was split into a proper article and tabulated, with a paragraph left on this article about the mian varieties. Million_Moments (talk) 20:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I reckon that's a great idea. I've been wondering how this article can be cleaned up for a long time, and a split seems perfect to me. -- Mark Chovain 22:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the split is uncontroversial enough that I'm just going to be bold, and perform the split. -- Mark Chovain 03:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've intentionally lost the prose from the variety section, as it was not really all that useful (IMO). If anyone wants to put it back in (or better, rewrite it), it's available in this version. -- Mark Chovain 04:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I will tabulate the List of hop varieties article and write a brief lead for it. A modified version of that lead could then be used in this article in a section that links to the list as the main article. Million_Moments (talk) 13:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

History section
Almost all the information in the history section is wrong. Full of myths, fantasies and misinterpretations. A factually based history of hops can be found here:

http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/a-short-history-of-hops/

65.115.38.107 (talk) 13:40, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Noble Hops
After a bit of online 'research' it seems to me that the term 'noble hops' is simply a marketing term with not much of an actual meaning. Is there anyone out there who knows more about hops and beer brewing who can confirm this and explain the significance of this on the page. The term seems to be commonly used in America, but is pretty much unheard of in Europe. For example the reference website (Hop growers union of the Czech Republic) cited in the article with respect to the definition does not mention 'noble hops' at all. 134.174.140.104 (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Noble Hops most definitely means something. It means the traditional German/Czech Hops varieties, and sometimes it includes the oldest British varieties.  It is understood as a term to exclude all American and modern varieties. Kpulliam (talk) 03:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If Hersbrucker is included, there are 5 varieties of Noble Hops, not 4. 64.203.205.138 (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Noble generally means German and Czech varieties. French spalt is included. Characterized by low acid, 2-4%, and a grass or lemon mild tartness. The lower acid means that a larger quantity of cones are required for bittering, resulting in increased alpha oils yielding flavor. AA greater than 5% is getting away from the 'noble' classification. Kolsch styles, i.e. sweet pilsners, best represent the noble taste and aroma.

They cones must not be pollinated, enforced by national laws. In contrast, non-noble cones are usually harvested pollinated, and seems to make no difference to their performance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.79.151 (talk) 06:33, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Methods
This phrase "allow them significantly greater growth with the same sunlight profile. Energy that would have been required to build structural cells is also freed for crop growth" definitely needs a citation or other supporting argument. I am not away of any Hops which do not climb (or attempt to climb). To my understanding it is not 'optional' and therefore there is no 'benefit' of energy savings through the use of that option. If there is nothing to climb.. hops roams around a bit looking for something to climb. As a ground plant, it's not a bush, but a plant looking for something to hang from. Kpulliam (talk) 03:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The image doesn't match the data in the article.
By reading the output image, it seems that the two largest producers of hops on Earth, by far, would be Germany and Turkey. Yet Turkey isn't once mentioned in the article, and does not appear in the top 11 list of hops-producing countries given in the article. In order to determine which one was wrong, I looked up Turkish hops production statistics (made easier by searching for "şerbetçi otu"). The IHGC report seems to have intentionally omitted Turkey, for reasons I am not in a position to know about. It includes Portugal, which had only an estimated 37 hectares of hop production in 2005 and an output of 57 metric tons, but not Turkey, which at the same time had an estimated 240 hectares of production and an estimated output of 1,000 metric tons. In short, while Turkish hops production is "significant" (despite not being in the cited report), it also isn't within the top 11 of hops-producing countries. It's the image which is misleading. --216.145.71.230 (talk) 16:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I posted the same question at the talk page of the image on Commons. The image also suggests that hops are widely cultivated in Iran, producing more than the USA, and somehow I don't see that happening.  - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 19:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I deleted the world production chart. Either it, the list of world producers, or the information given in the article is inaccurate because they contradict eachother. I deleted the chart because it seemed the most inaccurate (it showed Turkey as a major producer, though this is not mentioned elsewhere). Either way, this needs to be corrected and I hope this brings attention to this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.11.111.44 (talk) 18:47, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Inaccuracy
The two passages I focused on, in relation to another page I was editing, were somewhat misleading. This, in conjunction with criticisms by earlier contributors to this discussion, suggest considerable caution with regard to the article at large. Specifically, Eastenders refers to residents of certain neighbourhoods north of the Thames, and many hoppers came from areas of South East London that border Kent. Also, Eastenders suggest the TV program, which is unfortunate in this context. There was smoke and grime in the streets of Victorian London. But by the middle of the 20th century, whilst urban conditions in some of the East End were not salubrious, and London had fog, I am not sure that "getting away from smoke and grime" as worded previously gave quite the correct impression. Tokens were issued throughout England because of a shortage of small coinage from the Royal Mint. The entry for company store has been tagged as inappropriate. It is irrelevant. Truck system was practiced in other countries and is irrelevant. I put in brief mention of Worcestershire hop picking to try to limit the imbalance. Absence of further comment is because I have not looked further. Michael P. Barnett (talk) 01:19, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Other uses of hops
''It is important that the Corbie statutes should link hops with beer brewing, because hops had other uses they might have been collected for: to make dyes, for example (brown dye from hop sap and yellow dye from the leaves and cones). The stems can also be used to make ropes, sacking and paper. Thus any mentions in old documents of hops being collected from the wild, or even cultivated, does not mean automatically that the hops were going into beer''

- A short history of hops | Zythophile

Anybody has a good source of reference? Komitsuki (talk) 13:44, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Someone might want to add that HopGuard, a product to control bees with mites is now being used and is gaining popularity for Verroa mite control on Honeybees.

http://www.betatechopproducts.com/products/varroa-mite-control

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/hopguard/

Hikingbert (talk) 21:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hop Compounds
I was reading about beer and noticed that the hops page under "brewing" and the terpene page list different chemicals as the "four major components of hop essential oils.  One shows pinene, the other farnesene.  I'm not sure if there's a contradiction there, but it should be looked at by someone who knows.  Ramireja (talk) 13:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Neither pinene nor farnesene are component of all hop oils. Both occur in some hops, and farnesene is a major component in some important hops like Saaz. I have edited the section to better reflect the facts. However hop essential oils is a very complex subject, and could probably do with a whole section. Hornemann55 (talk) 13:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

World production
The Fao statistics are misleading. Ethiopia does not grow hops. The reason they rank so high in world production, is that they classify Gesho as hops: THE FEDERAL DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF ETHIOPIA AGRICULTURAL SAMPLE SURVEY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.225.178.2 (talk) 11:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Dubious photo
"Young hop vines in North America"

80% of the vegetation visible in this photo is grass or weeds. Only the plant right in the centre of the photo is hops, and it is only visible if the photo is enlarged.Eregli bob (talk) 07:51, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure someone could make a better photo, but there's nothing really wrong with that one. As you say, it does portray a hop vine. --BDD (talk) 00:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Wild Hops in Australia?
IN SEARCH OF WILD HOPS. Found this interesting. …an article from Phil

An un-informed person might have thought that the scarring across my wrists indicated a low self-esteem problem instead of a determination to progress on an adventure into the unknown – in this case into the depths of that place that only Peter Rabbit could possibly find comfort in, the dreaded blackberry bush.

But first a little history lesson. Ireland and Blundy are permanently set within the history of Forrest, Yaugher and surrounding districts in the Otaway Ranges just south of Colac. I had previously spoken to Steve from Otaway Estate Brewery about the wild hops that existed in the area and I noticed some advertisement proclaiming that the new brewery at Forrest is to brew with these mysterious hops. Bertie Ireland was in-fact the last person to grow hops in the area way back in the twenties and at that time the Large Grey American (Cluster) dominated as the hop of preference, yet these wild hops pre-dated these by some forty years. A search on google brought me into contact with the Forrest & District Historical Society and their publication "Hop Growing at Forrest‟. Compiled by Pam Jennings this booklet details the families associated with the hop farming and the conditions under which they persisted, yet references to varieties that were grown are scarce. Where-by Helen Pearce‟s book "The Hop Industry in Australia‟ published in 1976 provides the clues as to the heritage of these hops that now grow wild, scatted throughout the lower gullies and river banks. Since 1866-67 the introduction of hops to Victoria from Tasmania saw several different varieties of English (Kentish) – Tasmanian hops being grown. The Canterbury Golding was one of the better adapted varieties for Victorian conditions where-by Early White Grape, Later or Green Grape, Red Golding and Canterbury were the foundations of the Tasmanian harvest. As mentioned earlier the introduction of Cluster into the Yaugher district did not start until early in the nineteenth century and my first stop was to Bambra just east of Deans Marsh which is significant because it‟s hop farming did not progress past the turn of the century. Nestled amongst the thick blackberry bushes down in a deep gully were hop bines extended past the height of the blackberries, trying to gain as much height as they could. The existence of these bines were only discovered by chance by a neighbor a couple of years ago. My next destination was the newly opened Forrest Brewery and a chat with the owner/brewer Matt who in-turn suggested a location north of town along the west branches of the Barwon River, that provided the perfect environment that Bertie had utilized some 100 years earlier. Now here was the exact same bines that I had earlier seen some 30km to the east taking claim to the same blackberry bushes, as well as extending it‟s foliage high amongst a number of established trees that line the river bank. These bines were awash with cones that were at an early development which contrasts against my own hop plants which in the proceeding days are to be picked. This might again be a clue to it‟s identity as a late harvesting variety but I can be almost certain that these hop bines are of the Golding variety. There was an attempt in 1901 to introduce new Kentish varieties in the form of Brambling, Early Bird and Cobb‟s Hops, distributed to as many growers as possible (all Golding varieties) but these remaining hops growing wild are most likely the Canterbury Golding hop. As far as the scarring on my arms, well that‟s what one has to endure if ones willing to gather some root stock and collect a number of lateral cuttings in an attempt to propagate these 100 year old hops in the confines of my own backyard. For the time being though, I‟ll leave it to both Matt and Hendo to utilize these wild hops in what will certainly be some very flavorsome and historic brews. Komitsuki (talk) 12:43, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

"Insoluble" Alpha Acids
The brewing section states that alpha acids are insoluble. However, Ullmann's Encyclopedia of Industrial Chemistry states only that they are significantly less soluble than their isomerised conterparts. 

Further to this, a study by Mark G. Malowicki Oregon State University 

shows that at a ph level of 5.0, the solubility of alpha acids is 40 parts per million which, according to Beer_measurement, gives a bitterness level of 40 IBU's which is well on the way to (American) IPA bitterness levels.

Malowicki cites this "uncontested" data from this study by Spetsig 

At a ph level of 6.0, alpha acid solubility is 300PPM (300 IBU's). This bitterness level is so high as to be beyond determining by human taste receptors.

The acidity of wort in the brew houseis often kept at 5.2 which falls between thes two bitterness levels (40 - 300 IBU's).

In conclusion I think the part about the insolubility of alpha acids should be changed. Not only are they soluble, but they are soluble to a level that is very likely to affect the bitterness of the brewed beer. Bierleichen (talk) 16:41, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

History sections STILL a mess
Five years on from when I first commented that the history parts of this entry are an inaccurate mess, they're STILL an inaccurate mess. I can't do anything about it, because it would all involve my own original research. But, eg, the claim that hops were first mentioned as being used in beer in 1079 is based on a typo repeated in several books involving the death of Hildegard of Bingen (actually 1179). And all this, from the first section, is balony:

"In the Middle Ages beers tended to be of a very low alcohol content" - no evidence for this whatsoever - "and were commonly consumed as a safer alternative to untreated water' - no evidence for this either. "Each village tended to have one or more small breweries with a barley field and a hop garden in close vicinity" - complete rubbish, especially since most village brewing, ESPECIALLY in Britain, didn't use hops until Tudor times at the earliest. Zythophile (talk) 13:21, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The Semites first added Hops to fermented beverages "for medicinal purposes". Funny but true excuse for alcohol, even codified in British Naal regulations. And c.f. Benedictine and other "medicinal" alcohol made by Monks. "Popular wisdom" is on trips to Mexico that tourists should drink cerveza not water for exactly the same reason. Yeasts do make antibacterials and the beer pH of 5.2 (out of most bacteria pH range) may have contributed. Increase of Alcohol content of ferment slows with time, "new beer" being 3% or less. Without an effective seal from air the oxidation of the beer (to malt vinegar) would compete with alcohol. Shjacks45 (talk) 10:53, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Fixed questionable chemical link in medicinal
"DiMethylVinylCarbinol was directing to tert-Amyl Alcohol which is a different chemical, toxic, and not found in Hop oil. DiMethylVinylCarbinol is an isomer of Prenol (3-methyl-2-buten-1-ol) which is found in Hop oil (essence). If the non-scentific methyl,methyl,vinyl(carbinol) were(dimethylvinyl)carbinol then it would be Prenol. The two Merck Index versions I own show Humulone as having both antibiotic and sedative medicinal qualities. Reference to Humulone being inhibitory towards Tuberculosis.  Historically, although Egyptian records show the brewing of alcoholic beverages using grain over 5400 BC, it was the Semitic peoples that added Hops (hence growing Hops in Iran pre Islam banning alcohol). The absence of Hops in fermented beverages before 1100 AD may indicate Hops was brought to Europe via the Holy Crusades. Although Merck is not open source, the Humulone and Humulus lupulus Wikis does note antibacterial. Reliable Naturopathic texts (the renowned Bastyr Institute is just outside Seattle) note making a tea/infusion of hops strobiles makes it sedative, not sniffing the hops. Not sure what posessed the article writer to include the unrelated Valerian whose active ingredient is similar to Catnip (mint) and affects felines by smell as well. The Humulus lupulus article notes Hops are in the same plant family as Marijuana so shouldn't the sedative properties of cannabidiol also be more appropriately mentioned? Shjacks45 (talk) 10:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Hops as a Yeast bioregulator
The antibiotic compounds in Hops not only protect it from bacterial contamination but also modify Yeast to use exclusively fermentative metabolism. Less need to protect ferment from air. Yeast turns sugar to carbon dioxide, not alcohol, when oxygen is available and hops is not present. Shjacks45 (talk) 11:00, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposed split of Emil Clemens Horst
There is enough content under Hops to justify a separate bio article. Horst certainly merits a reference here, and his section has grown quite a bit since it was added. Does anyone have a problem with moving most of this to a separate page, and expanding to include migrant labor issues, etc? I'll begin drafting a new page and will move some of this content out in a few days, if there are no objections. -Xpctr8 (talk) 22:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. The section seems very out of place and disproportionate as it is, would sit well as a separate bio. I would recommend moving almost all, or even all, of this information as it refers to a very specific American agricultural entrepreneur case that doesn't really contribute to a balanced hop story. I live in the middle of major hop country in Kent, England and there have been many people over hundreds of years who have contributed to the story. E x nihil  (talk) 09:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Formatting
Why isn't this article arranged like other plant articles? Where are the taxonomy headings? Where's the KPCOFGS info? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.185.209.133 (talk) 18:14, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * This article is about hops as a product derived from plants. For the plants themselves, see Humulus and Humulus lupulus. Plantdrew (talk) 20:10, 10 February 2015 (UTC)