Talk:Horns of Moses

Stephen Bertman
"Stephen Bertman is Professor Emeritus in the Department of Languages, Literatures and Cultures, University of Windsor. Stephen has explored World Literatures, Ancient Civilizations, and Contemporary Culture. His books include Hyperculture: The Human Cost of Speed, Cultural Amnesia: America's Future and the Crisis of Memory, Handbook to Life in Ancient Mesopotamia, and The Genesis of Science: The Story of Greek Imagination. His most recent book is 'Distracted Doctoring: Returning to Patient-Centered Care in the Digital Age'." - Not exactly a specialist in this tricky area then! Johnbod (talk) 01:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC)


 * You're right to ask the question, but I think he checks out. His background and emeritus position seems to be Greek and Roman civilisation, and linguistic questions, which is what he's addressing in his paper? The only unique bits he's said repeated here are related to Jerome's interpretation and choices, which seem plausible and have been cited as possibilities by others, and are within his linguistic and classics background. The points he raises about Jerome's possible antisemitism are not new, and his points about conotations of horns in the classical vs medieval periods don't seem original either. To the extent that they're relevant here, they're backed up by Strickland and Mellinkoff. So I'm not sure there's a specific concern.
 * On the other hand, where he's interpreting Michelangelo's Moses rather than repeating other people's views on it he's moving beyond his expertise so begins to be less reliable in the WP sense of the word.
 * I've no idea why he's also ventured into medical topics in his retirement other than the obvious personal ones but I can see the cultural amnesia connection. Jim Killock (talk) 07:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well an increased interest in medical care comes to us all with age, and it doesn't seem to take much to get this guy to drop a book. It is said by various sources that the "devil with horns" was itself only an idea developed in the Middle Ages, long after Jerome. Various contemporary specialists are more sympathetic to Jerome's choice of word in a tight corner, and of course he probably never saw, or perhaps imagined, images of Moses with horns. Johnbod (talk) 15:33, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree he's probably incorrect on Jerome but it's not the same he's an unreliable source or didn't say it, or tht others don't entertain his perspective. Less sure about the horns point; he makes a reasonable case that this is found in the NT eg Revelations and in general the negatives for horns might be known or felt, but iw will re-read. Not sure if his points there is repeated elsewhere but I would have thought so as he's basically cobbled together his arguments mostly from elsewhere understandably enough, so will check. The positive case for Jerome's translation though is made best by the MA student quoted (!) and he's in at length, so I think that's ok. If we find people taking him down perhaps we can reconsider if his views count as reliable perhaps. Jim Killock (talk) 16:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * To be fair to Bertman he accepts the possibility of the positive case, he just says there's an alternative reading. At p.100 he points to Revelation 12 as identifying horned creatures with the antichrist, etc., and says that horns probably had negative connotations for Jerome, so it may have played into his choice in a way that wouldn't have been the case for Aquilas, who was a Jew. I can make that clearer. Jim Killock (talk) 16:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So I did that; I see also Strawn cites Bertman and doesn't dismiss his comments re Jerome, but he does disagree with him regarding the impression that Michelangelo's Moses makes. So I think we're probably getting the balance right. Jim Killock (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Remaissance art section
@Johnbod Just noting that the Renassance art section currently lacks citations, especially relating to the Rays of Light developments; would you mind adding some? I can add CNs where I think these might be needed if you like, but I'm not sure that's necessary. Jim Killock (talk) 04:05, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. Unfortunately, scholarship seems drastically less interested in the rays than the horns, but no doubt something will turn up. Please let me know when you've finished with the article. I'm away for a fortnight from next week. Please DON'T run images into text paras (MOS) & try to avoid False title. Thanks. Johnbod (talk) 23:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Aquila's choices and the older context
Hi @Johnbod re your edit out of Aquila's choice; the sources say that as he was Jewish, his choice of horns as a positive choice may have been influenced by the positive connotations in the Torah. I agree this was not clear, but I may find a way to add it back. Relatedly, I also note your helpful addition regarding the longer background on horns as a positive connotation in the medieval context. This aspect is also discussed in the etymology sources, including IIRC regarding Aquila. If and when I get time this may also be added. Also, thanks for adding the sources re the Renaissance. Jim Killock (talk) 07:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)