Talk:Hossein Vafaei

Requested move 25 February 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Clearly, there is no consensus in this discussion to change this title as proposed. There might be community consensus, but it's really unclear. If indeed the Ayouri part was added by mistake, and usage is slowly correcting, then this is an unusual case where we have to take that into account in determining WP:COMMONNAME. But even this basic question is not resolved here. Perhaps the situation will get more clear in reliable source usage in the next year or two? If so, we can revisit then, if usage merits it. В²C ☎ 16:56, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Hossein Vafaei → Hossein Vafaei Ayouri – This is demonstrably the WP:COMMONNAME for this player in regards to his professional career. Virtually all of the working sources in the article refer to him as Hossein Vafaei Ayouri, with only several exceptions: In addition to the above, the WPBSA (snooker's professional governing body), and broadcasters such as the BBC and Eurosport consistently refer to him as Hossein Vafaei Ayouri. In terms of Google hits, there are 17,000 hits for "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" and 12,000 hits without the "Ayouri". While it is clear both versions of his name have been used, he is consistently referred to as "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" in reliable source coverage of the professional game and it is the more common and complete version. In addition, since the longer version includes the shorter version it is less likley to cause confusion. Betty Logan (talk) 14:41, 25 February 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 06:11, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Cue Sports India referred to him as Hossein Vafaei in 2011 and then as Hossein Vafaei Ayouri in 2012.
 * The IBSF (Snooker's amateur governing body) are inconsistent, using both forms:
 * The Tehran Times are also inconsistent using both versions:
 * In this video there is said something about his name: "Hossein Vafaei. On the back of his shirt you might notice Vafaei Ayouri. Now for a while we thought that was his name because that's what he put on his membership form for the WPBSA. But it turns out Ayouri is ..." I can't understand the last words, perhaps you could do better, but it seems the common name is Vafaei without Ayouri. And if both names are used I would prefer the shorter one, because it fits better into the draws. It seems to be some kind of spanish name construction where the maternal name is also commonly not used.--Intimidator (talk) 06:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * It is obvious from reliable source both forms are used but even in that clip usage is inconsistent: ITV refer to him "Vafaei" but he has "Vafaei Ayouri" on his playing shirt. You are taking one inconsistent example and arguing that it represents the "common usage". What is your statistical basis for arguing that it is the common usage? I have presented evidence above that his governing body consistently refers to him as "Vafaei Ayouri" and Google hits favor that form too, so in what way does that not constitute the "common" usage? Betty Logan (talk) 13:06, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you want to carry your point of view or do you want to find out what his common name is? If it's first as it now seems to me there is nothing more to discuss with you. If you want to find out the truth try to understand what they say in this vid. As I wrote I can't understand the last part. It is absolutely clear to me that they say they thought Vafaei Ayouri was his name. So they do not think this any more. There has to be some reason for this. They say it in the vid: But it turns out Ayouri is ... So what is Ayouri?--Intimidator (talk) 13:43, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * It is not a point of view, it is analysis of the available evidence. It is perfectly clear both forms are used, but article titles are determined by WP:COMMONAME which is a policy and reads as follows: "...some topics have multiple names, and this can lead to confusion about which name should be used in the article's title. Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the criteria listed above." My question is a reasonable one: if "Vefaei Ayouri" is used consistently by his governing body and appears in the majority of reliable sources used in the article and returns the most Google hits then on what basis exactly does this not denote the "common usage"? My analysis has put forward the case that "Vefaei Ayouri" is more commonly used than "Vefaei" alone to refer to him and I have provided a fact based argument to back it up. An opposing counter-argument should present the argument that "Vefaei" alone is more commonly used with appropriate statistical evidence. Betty Logan (talk) 14:10, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Google hits mean nothing. And as I now say for the third time this naming topic is referred to in the video by some snooker experts. But this doesn't interest you. You simply ignore it. So a discussion with you makes no sense. Take this as a strong contra for moving the article. Kind Regards --Intimidator (talk) 14:24, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Common usage not single counter-examples: It doesn't interest me because it is a single example where both forms of usage are present (he actually has "Vafaei Ayouri" on his shirt in the video you link to) which is not evidence of "common usage". WP:COMMONAME is a policy, which means that editors such as you and I cannot choose to dismiss it. This is what it says:
 * "Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the criteria listed above.[5] When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly"


 * The only relevant question here is how to assess which version appears most frequently in reliable source. There are several ways of approaching this question:
 * The working sources used in the article such as the WPBSA (the professional governing body), and dedicated snooker sites such as CueTracker and Snooker.org favor "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri". Pro Snooker Blog and the Romford Recorder both refer to him as "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" and "Vafaei" for short. Cue Sport India, the IBSF (the amateur governing body) and the Tehran Times are inconsistent, using both versions. In short ALL reliable sources used in the article have referred to him as "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" at some stage, but not all sources have used "Hossein Vafaei".
 * Google hits for "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" return 16,400 and 13,700 for "Hossein Vafaei" (without "Ayouri").
 * There is clearly a demonstrable prevalence of "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" in the sources used by the article (all the sources have used this version of the name), and Google hits are consistent with this. Furthermore, the professional governing body consistently refers to him as "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" in all their draw sheets and result reports. No metric is conclusive—nor is it expected to be—but both measurable metrics (sources used in the article and Google hits along with his WPBSA profile) clearly favour "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" in terms of common usage. So far, none of your arguments have addressed common usage, which is the criteria used by Wikipedia's naming policy. If you insist on sticking with "Hossein Vafaei" then please present a policy based rationale that actually addresses the prevalence in reliable sources. Betty Logan (talk) 15:10, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Respected snooker commentator Phil Yates said on TV that his name was Hossein Vafaei and that Ayouri was the name of the town he was raised in. Yates said Hossein put the town name down on his WPBSA form and World Snooker thought it was his name. A bit like Don Corleone in Godfather 2 he put down the name Corleone on his entry to the US when it was the name of his village and was wrongly called Corleone for the rest of his life movie trivia. But A quick check of his twitter account shows he goes by the name Hossein Vafaei. Does this help ?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.136.45.160 (talk) 22:46, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. This were the last words that I could not understand. I think it is clear now that Vafaei without Ayouri is correct and as time goes by Vafaei will be used by more and more sources. But I fear this doesn't interest Betty Logan as she likes to look what is printed on T-Shirts instead of listening when experts explain something on TV. A good example for not to use google in this questions also. They all did not know what is the right name and some took this version, some took another completely by accident. At some point this goes in one direction, but this has nothing to do with what is the right name. --Intimidator (talk) 01:44, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * First of all the IP has presented no verifiable source for this information. Second of all, the name "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" was in use during his amateur career when he was playing in IBSF tournaments, which was before he got his WPBSA tour card in 2012 (as we can see from this report in The Hundu about the IBSF world championship), so the story—if true—is inconsistent with known facts. And finally, this is irrelevant anyway: the COMMONNAME policy instructs that we use the name that is most commonly used to refer to him, regardless of whether it's his real name or not i.e. we have have an article on John Wayne not Marion Morrison, because that is how he was known professionally. Betty Logan (talk) 02:27, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The source was given in my first post. (It's the video that you are consistently ignoring) With the help of the IP the text Phil Yates said is clear now: "Hossein Vafaei. On the back of his shirt you might notice Vafaei Ayouri. Now for a while we thought that was his name because that's what he put on his membership form for the WPBSA. But it turns out Ayouri is the town he is from." There is nothing more to say about this. His name is Vafaei. Ayouri is not part of his name. He isn't known under this name because he choosed it like John Wayne or Kirk Douglas. It was a mistake which was carried on and Phil Yates clarified this. You are on a mission! You know you are wrong! But you can't step back. Sad.--Intimidator (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

To all those concerned please look at the World Snooker live scores for the Gibraltar Open. The player in question is now listed as Hossein Vafaei will that not answer this question ?. His World Snooker profile now also lists him as Hossein Vafaei is that not good enough ?. This is the governing body after all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.167.158.102 (talk) 13:29, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Here is his World Snooker Profile: http://www.worldsnooker.com/players/hossein-vafaei-ayouri/. Here is his name in the official rankings: http://www.worldsnooker.com/rankings/. World Snooker's Livescoring service is not operated by Worldsnooker and is outsourced to a company called "Sportrader" (as you can verify at https://who.is/whois/worldsnookerdata.com). Worldsnooker.com (which consistently uses the name "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri") is World Snooker's official website (which you can verify at https://who.is/whois/worldsnooker.com). This isn't brain surgey folks: both names are in use, but the official professional and amateur governing bodies (i.e. World Snooker and the IBSF) use "Hossein Vafaei Ayouri" as do the majority of reliable sources such as Eurosport and BBC. Betty Logan (talk) 14:19, 3 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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