Talk:Hotarubi no Mori e

Collaboration project (questions, notes, source discussions, etc.)
If anyone wants to help out, I plan to re-write this article over the next day or two. I primarily need help with Japanese sources (locating, translating, etc.). If no one offers help, I will do my best to work off of Google Translate, but I'd rather see this be a collaborative project.

To start things off, I would like input on the title of the article. According to the MoS for anime/manga, we need to use the English title... but I can't find an official one. According to Anime News Network, the title would be "The Light of a Firefly Forest". However, I've seen several others use "Into the Forest of Fireflies' Light". I can't find anything "official", though, since most English sites only use the Japanese title (the current article title). Suggestions? – Maky  « talk » 02:59, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Since it hasn't received an English license, it should just stick with the romaji title. Summer Wars is a good reference in style, aside from the characters section, but does not have enough content for Featured Article. This Kanji to Romaji website might prove useful. I just realized this article includes both the manga and film. A better example would probably be Tokyo Mew Mew. Good luck. DragonZero  ( Talk  ·  Contribs ) 03:33, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input. I'm also looking at School Rumble, the last anime/manga article to pass FAC (from what I can tell), but the others you listed are also good.  But to be clear on the title, should we mention any of these alternate English titles in the article and use redirects? –  Maky  « talk » 04:09, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless an English title is official, it shouldn't get a mention other than a translation of Hotarubi no Mori e in the lead in the Nihongo template. Examples of this sort of thing can be seen in such articles as Kore wa Zombie Desu ka? and Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai with the use of 'lit.' to show a literal translation of the Japanese, or with Lotte no Omocha! which just lists the translated title as the last entry in the Nihongo template without a 'lit.' or 'literally'. You can add any redirects of translated titles if you want.--  十  八  04:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Perfect! Just what I needed to know.  Thanks. –  Maky  « talk » 06:09, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: Since I am still compiling a list of English sources, determining what constitutes a reliable source for an entertainment-centered article, and reading the manga, I probably won't make any major edits for another day or so. I'll be writing the first major revision off-line, so if anyone is planning to make major contributions, please let me know. Otherwise expect a new lead, cited plot, as well as Production, Media, and Reception sections. The areas in which I will need the most help will be with the infobox and the Production section (which I suspect will come from Japanese sources)... but we'll see what I manage to find. Not only to do I hope to take this to GAN (and beyond), I also hope to nominate it for DYK when I'm done. – Maky  « talk » 06:09, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Another thing—I realize that there's an organizational problem with the page, and I plan to address it. The manga, Hotarubi no Mori e, has four volumes, of which the movie only covers volume 2 (entitled "Into the Forest of Fireflies' Light"). Each of the other three volumes have their own titles and cover unrelated stories. (Please keep in mind that I cannot translate Japanese, so I still don't know what "Hotarubi no Mori e" means literally.) This makes me wonder if the infobox should have the movie poster or cover art from the manga instead. If it should have the manga instead, would this be a legit source for the fair-use image? I can't seem to find an "official site" for the manga, unless it's the same as that for the anime. Thoughts on any of this are welcome, of course. – Maky  « talk » 06:31, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, to be more precise, Hotarubi is the second one-shot manga in a collection of four one-shots; the collection itself is titled Hotarubi no Mori e, but I suppose Hotarubi no Mori e and other stories would have made more sense. There was also a second collection released in 2011 containing Hotarubi, two additional stories, and a 'special chapter' of Hotarubi.--  十  八  10:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting... None of the sources I've gathered so far have mentioned the additional stories or special chapter, unless I missed it. (Correction: As I learn to navigate Anime News Network, I'm finding more about it, but not much so far.  I'm assuming the new ones haven't been translated to English yet, right?)  Would you please either post or email me a link?  Also, do you or anyone else have any online or offline (print) reviews of the manga?  Everything I'm finding is for the film, and Manga: The Complete Guide doesn't appear to review it (from what I can tell from Google Books), probably because it's not licensed in English. –  Maky  « talk » 15:12, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * All that info was taken from the Japanese wiki page, which provides an overview of Hotarubi and it's related stories; the three in the original volume are: Hanauta Nagaruru (花唄流るる), Kurukuru Ochiba (くるくる落ち葉) and Hibi Fukaku (ひび、深く). These were all published in a single volume in 2003. The second collection was released in 2011 with the original Hotarubi no Mori e, Taion no Kakera (体温のかけら), Hoshi mo Mienai (星も見えない) and Hotarubi no Mori e (special chapter) (蛍火の杜へ 特別編). As for reviews, those are generally hard to come by, especially for an unlicensed manga. You're best bet is reviews of the film.--  十  八  20:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing the Kanji for the stories. I was going to ask for that, so you beat me to it.  ^.^  Anyway, I now have all my notes and sources pulled together, and I'm beginning the slow process of writing the article.  I'll have a few things I'll need help with when I'm done, but more on that later.  Thanks again for all the help so far.  –  Maky  « talk » 02:16, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Plot summary: Although I still have a lot to write, I am going to put the plot summary in for the second story of the manga (and film). This will partly replace the existing plot summary, and I encourage comments. The old summary had spoilers, which I know is fine on Wiki (per WP:SPOILER), however, I weighed that with what I read at WP:PLOTSUM. The only thing I really feel is missing (besides the plot summaries for the 3 other manga one-shot stories) is the real-world context (see Plot-only description of fictional works). I will add this real-world context when I have more time to go through my review sources, some of which are already cited. (I was just using their "synopsis" or "plot" sections for starters.)

If people feel the ending needs to be discussed, I have an alternate that replaces the sentence starting "Meanwhile, Hotaru struggles with her emotions..." which will fully outline the events through the end. But like I said, I have reservations... mostly on copyright grounds, but also on the grounds that the end only brings to a conclusion the conflicts already established in the story. Anyway, constructive criticism is more than welcome. The plot summary section is the part I'm least comfortable writing, so I'd like to start working out the problems now before the new article comes online in full. Meanwhile, I'll be working on the rest of the article. – Maky  « talk » 05:37, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


 * A lot of work has been done in a short time, enough for Did you know I believe, if nominated soon. The summaries are decent, though I always prefer the conclusions in mine. I don't think the sentence explaining how the plot differs in the animated film is necessary unless it's drastic like Fullmetal Alchemist. For the production section, is it necessary to note the same group worked on Natsume's Book of Friends? For the reception section, there are issues with the accuracy. The sale information were based on the first weeks, so those are not the average weekly sales. DragonZero  ( Talk  ·  Contribs ) 16:35, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback, and especially the correction! I've fixed the sales information in the article.  I also appreciate the feedback on the plot summaries, though I may wait to see if I get more feedback before taking a hatchet to it.  As for the mention of Natsume's Book of Friends, it seems to be a popular topic in most reviews/news articles, so I figured it merited a mention since it is there most popular (and somewhat related) work.  Do you feel it should be moved to a different part of the article?  Otherwise, do you have a second to assess whether or not the article is currently B-class?  Again, the summary of the reviews is coming later tonight.  Again, thanks! –  Maky  « talk » 19:50, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Re-write nearing completion
I still have to summarize the published English reviews of the anime film and work in some real-world context from those reviews into the plot summary, as well as tweak the lead... but otherwise the re-write is nearly done. However, there are a few things I could use some help on.


 * 1) Opinions: Can/Should I include a small screenshot showing Gin wearing the mask, possibly including a young Hotaru?  Fair-use images are touchy subjects, but I feel that it's important to show Gin wearing the mask so that readers get a better picture.
 * 2) Opinions: In regards to #1, should the infobox use an image of the manga cover instead of the theatrical release poster?  If so, should the theatrical release poster be deleted, or should that be the second fair-use image?
 * 3) Opinions: Are the plot summaries adequate for the other 3 one-shot stories?  There are no reviews of them that I can find, so I can't provide a real-world context.  Instead, I can only recap key events.  I also can't provide details about the other stories in the special edition, so maybe the "Plot" section should be restricted to the anime-specific story, and maybe someday the extra chapter (if someone ever reviews it)...  Thoughts?
 * 4) Translation help/verification on Japanese sources used in the article
 * 5) Translation help and inclusion of material from the following sources:
 * Official website - News
 * Official website - About
 * Official website - Special (Mainichi Film Award)
 * Official website - Special (Jury Prize)
 * Official website - Special (Dubbing Report)

Feedback, in general, would be greatly appreciated. Once I'm rested up, I plan to finish the article and submit it to both DYK and GAN. Oh... and a good suggestion for a DYK hook would be nice. – Maky  « talk » 11:05, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is in response to the message left on my talk page; in the future, just post any comments here, since it's on my watchlist and I'll see it. First of all, the original publication dates for the one-shots was taken from the Japanese wiki. From my experience with Japanese manga volumes, the publication dates for the chapters are always listed somewhere, usually on the very last page of the volume. It is thus conceivable that that information could be cited using the volumes themselves as a primary source. Second, Hana to Yume is a magazine, but it's also an imprint Hakusensha uses for their manga, not just the ones published in the magazine itself. The manga was all published in LaLa and LaLa DX. And it's one of my personal preferences to only list one ANN link, so as to reduce redundancy. Anime News Network links to related series internally on their pages, so listing each one is excessive.


 * You may also wonder why I removed the production section and incorporated it into the anime section. Basically, as it was, the production section was redundant to info already in the anime section, save for one line. Second, any production info should primarily be about the manga itself, since it's the primary media.--  十  八  23:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * My apologies. I have to rely on others to do the Romaji/Kanji translation for me, and I mistakenly overlooked your edits on your talk page.  I thought you were someone else.  -.-  Anyway, I understood why you deleted the "Production" section, and in hindsight, I agree.  Thanks for explanation for the publication info.  I just wish we had sources for the publication dates.  I can get one of them through amazon.co.jp, but not the 2002 date.  I just ordered the original manga from Japan, but it will probably be the 2003 copy, even if I could decipher the copyright info anyway.  Btw, since no one is stepping forward to offer help in translating the Japanese sources above, I was wondering if there was anyone you could recommend?  I want to push for FA, even if the article is small.  I think if I cover those sources, that should meet the requirements for comprehensiveness.  Arigato.  –  Maky  « talk » 00:01, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There aren't very many of us left in WP:ANIME that can read Japanese, or who would be willing to take to the time to do it unless they were interested. However, even if those sources were translated and incorporated, you'd need at least some information on the production of the manga to even get the article up to GA (or even if you could get it to GA without it, which I doubt, you wouldn't be able to get it to FA without it). That would come from an interview of the author, most likely, though there might be some production info in the original manga volume.--  十  八  02:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been down this road with other GAs/FAs: The lack of published information does not preclude comprehensiveness. Sometimes the information doesn't exist.  It's like failing an article about an animal because we don't know much about its behavior.  Sure, someone may know some interesting information about, but unless it's published, then an article on the animal will be comprehensive as long as it covers all the available sources.  That's why I'm trying to find someone who can read Japanese.  I will have access to all the Japanese sources (those listed above, plus the ability to scan any other material from the original manga), so as long as I can get that included, then I should be able to move forward.  There really shouldn't be that much to translate and include... –  Maky  « talk » 02:34, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Images in the article
I would like another opinion. I feel like I'm pushing the limits of fair use, so I don't want to add another image to the article. However, I am contemplating the possibility of replacing the theatrical release poster with a snapshot from the movie. In particularly, I'm thinking about this image. Other options can be found here, or I could take my own snapshot (possibly the point after Gin has placed his mask on Hotaru's face where he leans in to kiss his her)... reducing the size and quality, of course. (Actually, someone has already taken the snapshot of that scene.) Thoughts? – Maky  « talk » 06:11, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say that, typically, using images from specific scenes is when they have some real world context, such as a reviewer or reviewers specifically citing a scene as noteworthy or controversial. Just posting a semi-random scene of the characters would not really satisfy WP:NFCC point 8. At that, I'm not even sure if the film poster satisfies the same point.--  十  八  20:21, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This makes me wonder, then, about the images used on Angel Beats! and Madlax. I saw it as a chance to illustrate both the praised artwork and the "tender" romance described in the reviews.  The poster at least shows the artwork and the initial age difference, which I could highlight in a new caption.  But I guess if people feel it needs to come down, then so be it. –  Maky  « talk » 20:34, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't say much about Madlax, but in Angel Beats!, there is a large cast, and it's helpful to distinguish between all the names in the character list; Hotarubi, on the other hand, has two.--  十  八  04:00, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Which is it? tankōbon or tanpenshū
I'm not sure whether to call the collection of 4 one-shot stories published in 2003 a tankōbon or tanpenshū. I suspect the latter, but the former seems to get mentioned more on forums and other informal sources. For now, I've included both in the article. However, if someone knows which is best to use, please fix it. – Maky  « talk » 05:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Tanpenshū" just means "short story collection", whereas a "tankōbon" is a publishing medium basically denoting the approximate size of the book. So it'd be more accurate to use "tanpenshū" as an adjective as in "tanpenshū tankōbon", but it's unnecessary to use the Japanese word in this context.--  十  八  06:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Thank you for the clarification. –  Maky  « talk » 06:33, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Imprint vs. magazine
Can someone explain the difference between the "imprint" and "magazine" for the manga infobox (regarding the latest edits)? I have the original tankōbon manga (2003), and I've had the copyright page translated, and nowhere does it mention LaLa or LaLa DX. ("Hana to Yume" is printed on the top of the front cover.) The same goes for the 2011 tankōbon manga—I don't see where LaLa is mentioned (only LaLa DX). I just want to make sure everything is sourced properly, and I don't know where this information is coming from. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.1em 0.1em 0.3em; font-family: fantasy, cursive, Serif">– Maky  « talk » 16:25, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I would like to see these copyright pages myself, if you can. But regardless, there's no evidence that these manga were actually published in Hana to Yume. Hakusensha uses Hana to Yume as an imprint for their shoujo manga, regardless if it was actually published in Hana to Yume or some other magazine like LaLa. According to the Japanese wiki, the manga in both tankoubon releases were serialized in either LaLa or LaLa DX (not including the special chapter of Hotarubi which was original to the tankoubon). I know this can't be sourced to the wiki, which is why I suggested taking the info from the tankoubon. I would be pretty surprised if the serialization info isn't somewhere in the tankoubon, since every one I've seen has this info, typically on the very last page.--  十  八  20:47, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem. I have emailed you, and once you respond, I will share scans of the copyright pages from the 2003 and 2011 books.  As always, your help is greatly appreciated. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.1em 0.1em 0.3em; font-family: fantasy, cursive, Serif">–  Maky  « talk » 21:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * An imprint, also called a publishing label, is the publisher name under which a book or comic is published under. It is quite common for publishers to establish multiple imprints to distinguish different types of books. For example, Random House Publishing has several imprints such as Skylark (children's books) and Del Rey (science fiction and fantasy). In this case, Hakusensha uses the Hana to Yume imprint to publish all of its shōjo manga tankōbon under. Shueisha does something similar with the Jump Comics imprint, which it to publish most of its shōnen manga tankōbon that were serialized in Weekly Shōnen Jump. —Farix (t &#124; c) 01:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Good explanation—thanks! <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.1em 0.1em 0.3em; font-family: fantasy, cursive, Serif">– Maky  « talk » 04:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)