Talk:Hou Yifan

Not a GM yet?
According to this link, she only has two GM norms so far (first ar Aeroflot, second at World Junior). I'm editing the article, and Chess prodigy article, accordingly. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That report was before Zhao Xue had her GM title confirmed.--KL Mark II (talk) 11:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a cite, saying Hou Yifan has the 3 norms? Otherwise it shouldn't go in. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Akhc pointed out that Zhao Xue is now a GM. This appears to be true based on her online FIDE rating card, though the Women's World Championship 2008 website lists her as an IM. However, even if her title has been ratified, I would like to see a confirmation of a third GM norm from FIDE before we say that Hou Yifan is a GM-elect. Incidentally, the Chessdom report that says that Hou Yifan definitely earned a GM norm at the Ataturk Women Masters because "there were 2 GM players" must be wrong since the requirement is 3 GM opponents, thus the whole point about the ratification of Zhao Xue's GM title. Laserlight (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Can I just ask a question - usually when someone gets the GM title people usually say they got it at x years, x months, x days here. Is this when they get the third norm (ie the last day of that tournament) or when the new FIDE rating list comes out or when FIDE officially declares so? thanks. Video*winter (talk) 19:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In answer to Laserlight: no, her FIDE rating card calls her a WGM, not a GM. In answer to Video*winter: it's the day they qualify, i.e. the day get the last norm (see Chess_prodigy). p.s. good work on the article everyone. Peter Ballard (talk) 00:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No, look carefully: Zhao Xue's FIDE title is listed as "Woman Grand Master (GM)". This means that she also holds the GM title. In contrast, Hou Yifan is listed as "Woman Grand Master (WGM)", while a male grandmaster like Viswanathan Anand is listed as "Grand Master". Laserlight (talk)


 * Yes, FIDE have made a pig's ear of their site. The situation with Zhao Xue would appear to be that she has been ratified as all the other candidates for ratification of GM Title in her batch have indeed been made GMs. FWIW Susan Polgar in her blog refers to Yifan as GM-Elect. However I can find nowhere on the FIDE site for current GM title applications to see if the chinese chess association have made any application for her. akhc (talk)


 * Oh I see. You were talking about Zhao Xue's rating card, I was talking about Hou Yifan's rating card. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's the ref where Polgar calls Hou Yifan a GM-elect http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2008/08/wcc-photos.html . I'd class Susan Polgar as a pretty reliable source, but not a perfect one. So I've put the Polgar reference in the article, but qualified it as Polgar's opinion alone. I think that's all we can do until more official word comes out. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok. Fide have reinstated their FIDE title applications page http://www.fide.com/info/titles/title-applications and no sign of any app from the Chinese for Hou. Having said that the app for Zhao Xue happened 6 months after she actually finished the North Ural Cup Tournament where she got her required GM norm so maybe the Chinese are just slow (though given she'd be the youngest female GM ever I'd have thought they would have applied by now given they like setting records! akhc (talk)

Susan Polgar also said she is a gm-elect here in her ChessCafe.com column. What does GM-elect mean? That she will definitely become a grandmaster come October '08(??) RybCRLSN (talk) 14:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * GM-Elects are basically players who have fulfilled the title requirements but because of the way FIDE works these titles have to be ratified and formally conferred at the quarterly FIDE meetings. Given that just about every sport I can think of have monthly or weekly updates to ranking lists it really seems FIDE is determined to remain rooted in the past. akhc (talk)


 * FIDE's WWCC semifinal report states that she is a GM-elect 141.30.217.50 (talk) 16:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I added your reference. Seems pretty official to me. Thanks. 20:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artepnem (talk • contribs)


 * A FIDE press release calling her a GM-elect is good enough for me. I've removed the Polgar refs and just referred to that instead. I've also updated the intro, and the list at Chess prodigy. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Guagd just made an update that says that Yifan's title has been ratified. Unfortunately the link provided is dead: http://www.fide.com/component/content/article/1-fide-news/3583--titles-approved-at-the-79th-fide-congress- Laserlight (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, Chess Base made an article on this, so it is pretty much confirmed either way. Laserlight (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

WFM title
Do you guys know when and where she earned her Woman FIDE Master title?Artepnem (talk) 02:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think such a lowly title (for someone of her talent) is that important, but it seems she got it in 2004. The Week in Chess has her listed as unrated when winning the 2003 world U10 girls' championship; then in late 2004 she is listed as having the WFM title.


 * I'll add that she got the WFM tilte in 2004 because thats when she entered the fide rating list with an elo greater than 2100 - automatically qualifying her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RybCRLSN (talk • contribs) 23:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Has FIDE confirmed what her 3 GM norms were for the purposes of confirming her GM title? People are suggesting that her Ataturk performance was a GM norm, but even if it wasn't her WWC performance was still a GM norm. I think she still broke Humpy Koneru's record either way, but it could be worth getting this right. PatGallacher (talk) 17:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Her GM title application has been cited, so those would be the official GM norms used. I am quite sure that she earned a GM norm from the tournament in Turkey, but it presumably was not included in the title application since at the time Zhao Xue's GM title was also yet to be ratified.Laserlight (talk) 20:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation?
How do you pronounce the name?--84.189.112.118 (talk) 11:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hoo Yee Fan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BriefingXO (talk • contribs) 13:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My guess would have been "How Yee Fun". But I don't want a guess I want an answer. --84.189.64.87 (talk) 18:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * See Pinyin. Conscious (talk) 09:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The English spelling that comes closest to the actual pronunciation is "Ho Yeefun". There is a text-to-speech tool here: http://www.iflylanguage.com/ltt/Advance.aspx Enter 侯逸凡 and press play. --84.189.71.112 (talk) 19:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I couldn't enter the characters. 20:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artepnem (talk • contribs)
 * Try with http://www.iflylanguage.com/ltt/ click on Advanced Reading Mode. Firefox doesn't seem to work. I couldn't find anything better than that site.--84.189.101.252 (talk) 17:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Davumaya added an ogg-file of the pronunciation without commenting it. The problem is that the audio file contains two contradicting versions of the pronunciation. That should be fixed or be explained. --84.189.73.38 (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This is still not fixed, therefore I removed "". Maybe some native chinese speaker can resolve this. --84.189.102.189 (talk) 14:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The pronunciation sounds correct to me, but I am Chinese Singaporean, not native Chinese. The two versions are not contradictory; the latter is merely a deliberately slow version of the former, as if one were reading three separate characters instead of a single name. Laserlight (talk) 08:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Tournaments
I think I've completed all the major international tournaments she has competed in. If anybody wants to fill in any omissions then please do. -Artepnem (talk) 01:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Good work! However, I wonder if a table might be better? As her career goes on, an article of mostly one paragraph for every tournament she plays would make for boring reading, IMHO. Better, in my opinion, is to put the highlights in the text of the article, and list all tournaments in a table at the end. Comments? Peter Ballard (talk) 03:01, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe later the paragraphs can be fleshed out and made more interesting to read with the description of opinions, performances, opponents, games (analysis), anecdotes, historical perspectives etc20:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artepnem (talk • contribs)


 * yup nice work in going back and filling out all the tournaments hou has competed in. however, is it really relevant to her wiki entry that we have interesting facts such as ni hua winning the men's chinese chess championship the year hou won the female one? I can understand reporting other players who competed against her in the same championship but to have a reference to a winner in a championship she did not play seems superfluous to me. Akhc (talk) 08:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I looked at this page and it lists her early accomplishements. I was going to add these but I have no idea what they are or mean. Lol. Does anybody know their significance? They are mostly domestic titles. The ones I striked out are those that have been mentioned.


 * 2001 Li Zhicheng Cup Woman 8-year old Team Champion
 * 2002 Qitong Cup Woman Team B Champion
 * 2003 Li ZhiCheng Cup Woman 10-year old Team Champion
 * 2003 World Championships for Girls Under 10 Champion
 * 2004 Draft Woman 12 under Team Champion
 * 2004 World Youth Championships Woman 10—year old Rank 3
 * 2004 Tied for first (third on tiebreak) in the boys’ section for the same age group
 * 2004 Li ZhiCheng Woman 12 Team Champion
 * 2005 China Exclusive Zone Woman Regional Champion
 * 2005 World Youth Team Woman 12-year old Rank 5
 * 2005 First-Team Woman Group Champion
 * 2006 37th Chess Olympics Group Woman Rank 3, Silver Medal —Preceding unsigned comment added by RybCRLSN (talk • contribs) 00:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

4th GM norm
I read somewhere I can't remember where that she got another GM norm by reaching the WWCC Final. Is this true or not? Thank you.--Artepnem (talk) 16:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup that's true. It's specified as so in FIDE's norm regulation. 141.30.217.50 (talk) 13:50, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I had a look at FIDE rules. It looks to me that the runner-up in the WWCC gets a GM norm if it involves a minimum of 9 games, although it's not totally clear.  There were 6 rounds, but she played 14 games, so does this count? PatGallacher (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Before reaching the final she played in 5 rounds. Each round had 2 classical games so thats a total of 10 games. After completing the semis at this point she has completed the requirement. She then played 4 in the final so the total for the whoel tournament is 14. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skrolae (talk • contribs) 12:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Notable game
A lot of chess player articles have a notable game/s section. Could one be done here? I suggest Hou's win with black against Gabriel Sargissian at Corus (Group B) on the 25th of January 2008. This win was against her highest then current-rated opponent (2676) -- as opposed, say, to her win over Nigel Short (in the same tournament)then rated 2645 but had a peak rating of 2712 back in 2004.

How does this fit with other female players' record? Obviously Polgar Judit has beaten nearly all the world's best players, but other than JP has any other woman beaten a player who was then rated higher than 2676? --Artepnem (talk) 18:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * all the below have beaten similar opposition occasionally but mostly against such they lose. humpy koneru beat Miroshnichenko (2671). zhu chen's best result is against tiviakov (2640) at standard TC. in blitz she's beaten pono and dreev (both rated 2700+). susan polgar beat yudasin (2645) and beliavsky (2640) and also as wins against 2700+ (ivanchuk/karpov) at blitz. stefanova beat nikolic (2676) at standard TC. sebag has a win against kazimzhanov (2683). kosteniuk beat bareev (2701) though not sure if this is standard TC. she's also had wins at blitz against 2690+ opposition. cramling has beaten sokolov (2706). the list goes on. beating a higher rated opponent isn't impossible or rare. real strength is being able to hold your own against that calibre of opposition all the time. Akhc (talk) 20:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

October FIDE
FIDE have updated their rankings.Her new rating is now 2578 but she is still listed as a WGM.

The GM title probably still has to be officially confirmed. She has now overtaken Xie Jun as no. 3 woman. She is only just short of entering the top 20 juniors list, I don't see anyone born in 1994 on this, only one in 1993. This suggests that she could be the highest-ranked 14-year-old of either sex. PatGallacher (talk) 19:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Slight qualification: Wesley So is no. 11 junior and currently 14, he turns 15 on October 9, there is also another 15-year-old born in 1993. PatGallacher (talk) 19:33, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

At what age did she get the GM title?
She was born on February 27. If she got her 3rd norm at the world junior (ended August 15), then she qualified for GM at 14 years, 5 months, 19 days. If she got her 3rd norm at the Women's World Chess Championship 2008 (ended September 17), then it was 14 years, 6 months, 21 days. If it was the day she qualified for the WWC final (September 12), then it was 14 years, 6 months, 16 days. But it cannot be what the the article currently says - 14 years, 6 months, 2 days - because on that day (August 29) she was playing in round 1 of the WWCC. p.s. The 14-6-2 comes from Chessbase but it seems to me that Chessbase is wrong. Peter Ballard (talk) 23:33, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 14-6-16 would be the most accurate. In view of the round 1 observation, it is clear that 14-6-2 is simply the result of calculating from the tournament start date. We could use the tournament end date, but that does not make sense since we have precise information. Calculating from the date of qualification for the final match is consistent with the rule that further games can be ignored after minimum norm requirements have been reached.Laserlight (talk) 14:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There was agreement here that 14-6-2 is wrong, but apparently no one acted on it at the time. A brief history of this claim in the article:
 * User:Artepnem introduced it in the introduction and main text in September 2008 in this edit (without source or edit summary). That account was blocked as a sock puppet the very next day.
 * Soon after, User:PatGallacher removed the day count in the introduction in this edit (with edit summary "tautologous - and dates are a little unclear") but left it unchanged in the main text.
 * Recently, in January 2021, User:GlorfindelFrodo reintroduced it in the introduction in this edit (without source or edit summary) – and was in turned blocked as a sock puppet two weeks later.
 * A month ago, User:Roentgenium111 corrected the claim in the main text in this edit (with edit summary "adding missing source for title application; rm unsourced WP:SYNTH ('Atatürk norm confirmed') which is contradicted by the title application source") but apparently missed the version in the introduction.
 * To summarize, the two accounts that added this claim were confirmed sock puppets; it was corrected twice, but each time a second version survived; it was never sourced or justified.
 * I've now changed the version in the introduction to 16 days as well. Joriki (talk) 14:31, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Question
So, having won the women's world championship at only 16 this raises the big question: could she go on to compete against the men's world champion? PatGallacher (talk) 02:25, 25 December 2010 (UTC)


 * She has to get into the World Chess Championship cycle. It is too late for the 2012 cycle (see the qualifying criteria for this cycle there under the Candidates' tournament section).  Also, becoming Women's World Champion is not currently one of the criteria that gets one into the cycle.  Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 03:56, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but eventually? PatGallacher (talk) 14:46, 25 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, it could happen eventually. She shows great potential. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 17:31, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Copyediting
I've edited the entire page and so am removing the copyediting tag. The page is still somewhat unbalanced though, e.g. the 2008 section is a lot more detailed than the 2010 section, but there should be no glaring style errors. Banedon (talk) 07:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Notable games
I think we should replace the one "notable game" with one of her impressive wins from the Tradewise Gibraltar Tournament - maybe the win against Le Quang Liem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.190.27.32 (talk) 11:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Photos
The photos in this article are a bit dated, could we get some newer ones? PatGallacher (talk) 14:56, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I will write a letter to her asking for some. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:58, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

It's been suggested that this is actually her, not Ding Yixin. Comments? PatGallacher (talk) 10:12, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * It is her. Same bracelet as in this image, and same mole on her chin. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:25, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * There is further evidence, but the above is probably enough. I've moved the file to the correct name, added the right category, and removed the speedy tag. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:31, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

WWC
Could we have a better source on her apparently backing out of the 2014 world championship, a fairly serious development? PatGallacher (talk) 14:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * With no confirmed date for the WWC there is only speculation i guess. Maybe there even won't be any Championship this year. The cosica news is pretty recent though, so she should play there. -Koppapa (talk) 14:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Translation
Anyone want to check my translation of "A l'exception de Judit Polgar, aucune joueuse n'avait gagné un tournoi aussi important"? PatGallacher (talk) 13:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Google translate suggests it is the first important tourney won by a female other than Polgar. But it's POV anyway and unless there is a source other than the tourney organizer i wouldn't include it. -Koppapa (talk) 09:27, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I dont think the line should be there. Hou Yifan won the World Women's Championship while Polgar never entered it. The Hou Yifan article should be about HY, not judging her achievements against Polgars. Jkmaskell (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

FIDE Rating table
Is there a good reason for having the FIDE rating list table? I would consider a well written prose section about notable rating achievements to be a better use of space than the block of figures there already, not to mention it'd require less maintenance work. Jkmaskell (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd second that. -Koppapa (talk) 09:53, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

According to the ratings just out for November, she has played zero matches and her rating is static. What about her victory in Corsica, which would surely have boosted her rating quite a bit? Does it take time for these matters to work through the system? PatGallacher (talk) 16:26, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The Corsica event was a rapid event, so wont affect her standard rating, but I think it may have been unrated (think I heard it on TWIC last week). Can't have been too late for inclusion as rule is 3 days before the list and Corsica ended on the 22nd, well before the deadline. Jkmaskell (talk) 18:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Declined to contest it?
"She forfeited her world title by declining to contest it in early 2015"

OMG that would make me so angry if I was her! She had "agreed to contest it" but they changed the date of it to a time when she was already committed to playing in Hawaii. I wouldn't call that "declining to contest it". I'd called it "shamelessly being fucked over by FIDE" or something. She is by far the strongest (active i.e. not-Judit) female player on the planet. And somehow them fiddling with the date so that she couldn't make it, seemed acceptable, and not the total farce that it was.

Mainly, I don't think that shameful episode should be referred to as "declining to contest it". Some reference to FIDE's bastardry should be made. It really was outrageous. 110.20.158.134 (talk) 22:12, 10 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Ah, sorry, it seems she indeed has started to "decline to contest" the knock-outs held each 2nd year. in an interview she made it clear that they're no kind of priority for her. A protest in action, not words. 110.20.158.134 (talk) 02:55, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

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Is there a more recent pic?
I think she's outgrown those cutesy kawaii type outfits now. MaxBrowne (talk) 10:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:21, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Хоу ифань киасса2.jpg

minus signs
Notice how conspicuous this difference is:
 * (+0 =1 −7)
 * (+0 =1 -7)

The first is a proper minus sign; the second is a hyphen. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:36, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

second highest rated woman ever?
I am guessing she is the second highest woman ever, and probably by a large margin. We should find a source (if possible) and put that in. Adpete (talk) 03:32, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * A quick search returns Natalia Pogonina's website, which maintains a list on this. A better source would probably be needed. Hrodvarsson (talk) 04:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I think this chess.com interview with her would count: "The only other female player in history who has been stronger is Judit Polgar. Would the idea of a Polgar-Hou match ever excite you, a match to decide the strongest woman of all time?" . Adpete (talk) 03:21, 30 November 2019 (UTC) -- on 2nd thoughts, that is "second strongest of all time", which is not the same thing. Adpete (talk) 02:01, 2 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Finally! Leonard Barden comes to the rescue. "China’s Hou Yifan, the all-time No 2 women’s player" . It also cites her semi-retirement, which is conspicuously absent from her WP page. Adpete (talk) 06:38, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Omission of an earlier strong woman player
"Hou is the third woman ever to be rated among the world's top 100 players, after Maia Chiburdanidze and Judit Polgár" Surely Vera Menchik was at one time among the top 100 players in the world? She scored tournament wins against a number of very strong players in the 1930s, including Max Euwe. She got crushed in the 1935 Moscow tournament, scoring only 3 draws out of 19 games, but the other players were all probably in the world's top 40. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Longitude2 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the current Elo rating system was only introduced in 1960, and its predecessor the Harkness system was introduced in 1950. Vera Menchik might have made it into the top 100 in the 1930s, but as she was killed in WW2 we will never know for sure. PatGallacher (talk) 20:34, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Chessmetrics puts Menchik peaking at #52, but I agree we can't put that here since there were no ratings then. It might belong at the Vera Menchik article though. Adpete (talk) 06:41, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Career Section
This section seems to be solely dedicated to her early career. The last date mentioned is 2007. Can we change the section title to Early Career, or add more information to the section that accurately portrays her career beyond 2007? For example, in the results section, there is ample information that can be included as general information for her Career. Owenreid (talk) 13:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)