Talk:House of Borgia

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 March 2021 and 12 June 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RenaissanceMan1389.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Johann Burchard Citation
The removed material appears below, with an added citation reference to a book containing the Johann Burchard diary quote. However, the diary has been published in an English translation (Francis Griffith 1910), and doesn't seem to record the alleged incident.

Johann Burchard, a contemporary of Alexander VI, who lived in the Vatican, states about Cesare: "One day he went so far as to have the square of St. Peter enclosed by a palisade, into which he ordered some prisoners—men, women and children—to be brought. He then had them bound, hand and foot, and being armed and mounted on a fiery charger, commenced a horrible attack upon them. Some he shot, and others he cut down with his sword, trampling them under his horse's feet. In less than half-an-hour, he wheeled around alone in a puddle of blood, among the dead bodies of his victims, while his Holiness and Madam Lucrezia, from a balcony, enjoyed the sight of that horrid scene." HiTechHiTouch (talk) 22:32, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Poorly-written
The entire page is quite poorly written - it reads like either a mediocre high-school essay or (more likely) was penned by someone whose first language wasn't actually English. The sentence structure is clumsy and the syntax choppy and inconsistent; it would benefit greatly from a top-to-bottom edit, cleanup, and partial rewrite. Given that in US (and likely other markets) the Showtime television drama "The Borgias", slated for release in April 2011, will draw considerably more attention to this page (it's the top Google hit for the search word "Borgias"), it seems a high priority for cleanup.

Agreed. This article is very poorly written. I've flagged it for a rewrite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.140.84 (talk) 02:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Alexander VI, brilliant?
The article said he was "brilliant". How so? The only thing he seemed to excel at was nepotism. Sirkowski 21:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Papal Families
There should be a page devoted to papal families and other interconnections: as this is the most well known such, I am placing the request here. Jackiespeel 17:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a Spanish family gone to Italy whose original name was Borja. Then why is registerd between italian families?

At that time and for several centuries Italy was part of the Spanish empire, like half of Europe, America, part of Asia, part of Africa and part of Oceania and the seven seas ( with the powerful Spanish imperial armada). The largest empire in history

Borgia king of Italy illegal and against the emperor. The problem is that the Spanish empire was so large it was impossible to control everything to avoid these things, even within the Empire was the Holy Roman Empire, were three empires in 1

Borja and not Borgia
This is a Valencian family. Wikipedia authors should stick to eponyms please. There is no way the early Borjas could have been born Bogia as they were not Italian... at first. Later Borgias we can use the Italian spelling. I'm an Italophile and I love Italian history, but let's recognize accuracy above popular history and common modern day exonyms (there are of course exceptions, but when you are telling a reader an particular persons birth name stick to the name they were given at birth, not the common translation)

Another example the House of Stuart. One uses StEWart before Mary, Queen of Scots and Stuart, after her stay in France, for the Scottish royal family and their descendants. We should change the name of this article.


 * I must agree that the entry should use the original spelling of Borja from the town in Aragón but I must say that the spelling in Italian is Borgia and not Bogia. I also agree on Stewart over Stuart for the parallelism.


 * ICE77 (talk) 02:45, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Dukedom of Gandia
I don't think Cesare was ever Duke of Gandia. In any case, the first Duke was Pedro Luis, his elder brother, and he was suceeded by Juan, one of Cesare's younger brothers. Cesare may have acquired the title when Juan died in 1497, but it's not on the genealogy I'm using. Does anyone know any different? Maybe this line should be deleted, because it doesn't strike me as being particularly relevant anyway. Also, Pedro Luis, the First Duke of Gandia, became a Duke - and died - while Rodrigo Borgia was still a cardinal.

--SoniaUK 18:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe Cesare was made Duke of Gandia. He was better know as the Duke of Valentino, but I think this it was to prevent confusion between the two brothers, since Juan was rarely referred to by any other name. I will look it up to be sure.

Monlette (talk) 01:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Valencian-Italian family
The definition of the Borja's family as “Catalan-Italian” is absolutely wrong. Pope Calixtus III (December 31, 1378–August 6, 1458), né Alfons de Borja, was born near Xàtiva, València, today Spain but then Kingdom of Valencia within the Crown of Aragon. So the family could be defined as "Valencian-Italian", "Aragon-Italian" or even "Spanish-Italian", depending on the author point of view, but never can be it described as "Catalan-Italian".

Jewish?
A fundamentalist Protestant who hates Catholicism is claiming that the Borgia family is Jewish? Is this true?CelticSicilian (talk) 02:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

A Possible Coat of Arms?
like in many other italian noble families (the Medici's and Farnese are the most famous) the use of Coat of Arms was very common, and my question IS: is there any knowledge of a coat of arms that was used by the House of Borgia? --Oren neu dag (talk) 22:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Structural change
This page appears to me to be more about Rodrigo Borgia than about the family. Shouldn't it be better to redirect the readers to the page of pope Alexander VI for the details about Rodrigo's life and add instead somewhat more about the other Borgia's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.191.138.240 (talk) 08:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I've made some changes. --Polylerus (talk) 22:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

We should change it so that it is structured by time instead of people Lasal Boyagama (talk) 06:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

references in litterature and cinema
Some ref are obvious hoaxes. I deleted them --Alexandre Rongellion (talk) 06:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure all of this was hoax information. The references to Assassins Creed 2, Ascension and Brotherhood are all relevant, but don't know about the rest. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Rodrigo_Borgia AxStaffer (talk) 12:31, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Normally all left ref are verifiable, I had just forgotten to delete the spurious refs to drama and theatre. I had never heard about Jordorowski's works on that subject, but it is in his vein, and I'm too lazy to check. --Alexandre Rongellion (talk) 00:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

What the heck?
On the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgia, in the section History/Expansion/Cesare, there is the statement:

"Cesare's education was accurately planned by his father."

Though I'm an intelligent, well educated person, and a native speaker of (and published writer in) English, I have no idea at all of what the writer of this sentence meant to convey to Wikipedia's readers...

Some clarification, perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.205.119 (talk) 09:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Poorly written
This is the most poorly written article I have ever seen in Wikipedia. Some of it makes no sense at all--some of it is nothing more than rumor. Historians do not write like this. Some of the well-known facts are correct but others are dubious at best. I suspect tampering with the original article may be to blame. Historian1031 (talk) 06:04, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll second that. This article is just awful. With the TV miniseries running it's an embarrassment to wikipedia to have people coming here to look for actual facts about the Borgias. The capper was that two video games are cited as historical sources at the end. Unbelievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.29.214.34 (talk) 07:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The references to the Assassin's Creed video games are actually just recording the Borgia Family's appearance in Popular Culture, much like the appearance of the TV series, they are not used as sources. AxStaffer (talk) 14:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Having read about the Borgia for the last 15 years, since my interest was first piqued, I find this article to be appalling! I don't have the time to research & re-write but is it possible (particularly with The Borgias now showing) to have this highlighted somewhere for others, who are more knowledgeable & able to dedicate their time, to re-write? (",) 86.63.26.124 (talk) 22:37, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is very poorly written and contains some very dubious assertions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rillifane (talk • contribs) 20:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Somewhat Improved Structurally
I'm not qualified to make factual improvements, but as a technical writer I can at least improve the structure a little. The section "The Other Siblings" after the portraits repeats some members already mentioned, and not all of them are siblings of anyone in particular, so the heading is incorrect. It is also unformatted; it's just a plain text line. The whole section is a dangling addendum anyway. If this information belongs anywhere, it's at the end of section "History", and its title should be something like "Other Borgias". The preceding section of portraits titled "Notable Members" should not be called that, because some Borgias whose pictures don't appear are also notable, or the article would not note them, which it does. A better title would be "Borgia portraits". The "Borgia genealogy tree" and "Papal arms" graphics are poorly placed; each has an obvious better location at the top of the relevant section. I have made the described changes, which are purely structural, not factual. Perhaps as a side effect this will call enough attention to this article that someone qualified will address the other, more serious problems noted in this Talk page.

Ornithikos 00:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

What
"Template: Royal House of Cock Eaters"? It's almost clever as far as vandalism goes. 66.207.23.59 (talk) 21:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Extinct
The article needs more information about the extinction of the different lines. When did the Spanish (de Borja) branch ended? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.251.196 (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Falls under original research, and ergo, I can't endorse this information to be put into the article 'til somebody wants to properly research it. Anyways, Borja/Borgia has variations on the spelling of the name today, with Bourbon, Boyd, Boyle, Doyle, Beauregard, etc. being variations thereof. If the name or line is extinct, it can be discussed here, and see if the lines and descendants match up. No need to put into the article 'til it's properly done. 70.180.188.238 (talk) 17:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistencies
Someone needs to edit this for inconsistencies regarding Rodrigo Borgia's two sones; Cesare and Giovanni. There are multiple occasions where which of the two is the older and the younger is confused. I believe that Cesare was the elder son, and this is borne out in the text a number of times, but there are also places where the text says that Giovanni is the oldest son.

148.240.61.197 (talk) 06:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

On page rewrite
I suggest you rewrite this page using, for this purpose, the existing Spanish Wikipedia. Sorry for my poor English.

--Julio Durán Borja (talk) 06:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Semi-Gotha
Is the Semi-Gotha mentioned in this article the same as the Almanach de Gotha? Hcobb (talk) 23:10, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Titles held by the family
Shouldn't The Papacy be included in the list?Duelistgamer (talk) 05:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * No, because while the papacy was held by two Borgias, the office is electoral and not hereditary and hence could not be said to be held by the family. 74.215.51.75 (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Referring to link to the Italian wars
I've added a link to the Italian wars where the author describes the on/off conflict between France and Spain over Aragon. Was it accurate enough to link the page that describes all of the Italian wars? (including those after Rodrigo's death) Or should I link to an article of an individual war between France and Spain?

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Genealogical tree ugliness and inconsistency
The genealogical tree of the Borja/Borgia family is really ugly. Also, the mother of Cesare, Giovanni, Lucrezia and Gioffre is not Vannoza dei Gattanei but Giovanna dei Cattanei or, at most and most commonly, Vannozza dei Cattanei. Please somebody rebuild the tree and make it similar to the one in this section of the Hundred Years War: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War#Dynastic_turmoil_in_France:_1316%E2%80%931328.

ICE77 (talk) 02:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)