Talk:House of Medici/Archive 2

Family tree
I moved the family tree to this talk page, since it is a total mess: offsprings of person x seems to be his sibling etc. It is better not having a family tree included than that one. Could anyone knowing more sort out this mess. Thanxs Gugganij 10:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

==Medici family tree (1360 – 1675)==

{{familytree||||!||||)|Gio|-|Csi|)|Pie|v|Lor|v|Ale|v|Giu|v|Cos|Gio=Giovanni de' Medici (1421 – 1463)|Csi=Cosimo de' Medici (1452 – 1461)|Pie=Piero II de' Medici (the Unfortunate) (1471 – 1503), Lord of Florence|Lor=Lorenzo II de' Medici (1492 – 1519), Duke of Urbino|Ale=Alessandro de' Medici (the Moor) (1510 – 1537), Duke of Florence}|Giu=Giulio de' Medici (ca. 1533 – 1600)|Cos=Cosimo de' Medici (? – ?)}}

Medici family today?
I am a little confused: the Medici family still exists today or not? See for example in Italy well-known journalist Lorenza De'Medici, who is very much alive. So why was Anna Maria Luisa de' Medici and her brother considered the "last" Medici and why was the Grand Duchy not passed on to another Medici instead of Francis of Lorraine? Gryffindor 22:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The de'Medici line extant in Italy may or may not be legitimate heirs of the dynasty. It is known that at least two branches survived in the male line after the grand duchy passed to the House of Lorraine in 1737. Two reasons:


 * 1) War. Tuscany was the prize offered by the Quadruple Alliance to Felipe V de Borbon, King of Spain in 1725 to end his invasion of Italy. Tuscany was allocated to Felipe's younger son, Don Carlos, great-great-great-grandson through his mother of Cosimo II de'Medici (thus heir of the body of the first grand duke, Cosimo I, if cognatic succession were the applicable rule). War then intervened again, this time the War of the Polish Succession, which prompted the European Powers to again re-draw the map of Europe. This time they gave Tuscany to the Duke of Lorraine who, being the consort of Maria Theresa, would become Holy Roman Emperor and heir suo uxoris of the Habsburg dominions. Thus he ceded Lorraine to France (with a life-time interest granted to Stanislaw Lesczynski, the deposed, son-less King of Poland).
 * 2) The branch of the Medici which reigned in Tuscany had been on the verge of extinction since the 1690s, making the grand duchy fair game for the chess gambit described above. Although the last Medici grand duke, childless Gian Gastone, repeatedly protested, the European Powers ignored him and arranged the succession to his realm without his consent -- not only because Tuscany was a useful sop, but to prevent the disruptions of a European tug-of-war over Florence once Gian Gastone was dead: better to make arrangements while the Great Powers were tidying up other casus belli in Europe. The two other surviving branches of the Medici at this time did not descend from the grand ducal line, but from shared ancestors, the Medici Gonfaloniere of Florence, a non-hereditary position. Nonetheless, the imperial patent creating the grand duchy did allow collateral branches to succeed as agnatic heirs general, and Gian Gastone tried to arrange that, but was ignored for reasons of Realpolitik.
 * So if a legitimate primogeniture descendant of the senior collateral line (the Marchesi della Castellina) could be identified, he would presumably be the rightful pretender to the Tuscan throne or, if extinct, the junior line of the Principi di Ottajano survives in legitimate descent. The latter is the branch Gian Gastone proclaimed as his rightful heirs. Lorenza de'Medici (born 1926) belongs to that branch. FactStraight (talk) 18:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's interesting. So the main line died out, however two branches still exist? Do the branches have their own name? You also mentioned a patent by Giangastone that legitimised them as heirs but was ignored? Is there more information about the patent, the content, appearance, etc.? It should be added into the respective articles. Gryffindor  22:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be interesting to know how many descendants of the Medici exist today, especially for Giovanni de' Medici (1360–1429). It would also be interesting to find out if any of these living descendants are famous enough to have Wikipedia article of their own.  Kenallen (talk) 07:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Where's Old Nick?
An article about the Medici family that doesn't reference Machiavelli is incomplete in my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mota2 (talk • contribs) 22:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Beyond the fact that he dedicated one of this books (The Prince) to a Midici family member (two actually, the first one died before Machiavelli could send the book), what would you add in regards to Machiavelli in an article about the Medici family? Just that Machievelli lived in their city and was part of the political machine? I mean, even his "Prince" is not really specifically directed to be followed only by the Midici, but generally by all rulers. One may mention I suppose that the book was a sort of bribe to help him out and to get on Midici's good side. But the article is so short as it currently stands (when compared to discussion of Midici bank for example) that a discussion of Machieavelli would seem out of place until the article is beefed up. --RossF18 (talk) 20:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * One might take your points more seriously if you could spell "Medici". Just sayin'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.248.67 (talk) 19:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Rating
First, great thanks to Jack1755 for his vast contributions to the article. Second, should we try to get a peer review of the article going? --RossF18 (talk) 04:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of Idiomatic Phrase
The following line appeard on this page:

"She donated much of her fortune to charity; £4,000 a month.[43] On 19 February 1743, Anna Maria Luisa de' Medici, Dowager Electress Palatine, breathed her last."

I doubt it is of consequence to anyone, but I have (or will have, before anyone reads this) deleted the term "breathed her last" and replaced it with "died." Wikipedia has a policy stating that idioms are not to be used unless absolutely necessary, which it is not in this case.

Thanks! "Yes... It's Raining " 04:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Lorenzo Medici
More reference should definitely be made to Lorenzo Medici. Also, I think that talking about a plot without mentioning the plotters is just a tad confusing.....

'The flower of the medici family' Lorenzo Medici was a great-though not good looking- patron of the arts, a scholar, poet, philosopher and soldier. Also, The Easter sunday plot was meant to kill Lorenzo as well as his brother. It was otherwise known as the Pazzi plot because it was plotted by the Pazzi family, another rich Florentine family. All The Pazzi were later killed or exiled from Florence as Lorenzo avenged his brother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lizzzzz (talk • contribs) 07:34, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Four popes..
This is not true. There were only two popes that were real Medici. Leo X and Clement VII. Leo XI was Medici only by his mother, Francesca Salviati, who was a daughter of Jacopo Salviati and Lucrezia de' Medici, a sister of Leo X. And Pius IV had no relation to this Medici whatsoever, he was from a modest family from Milan. --Maduixa (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Brittanica says 4. -- Jack1755 (talk) 16:01, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If the mother is Medici then the son is Medici--Lizzz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lizzzzz (talk • contribs) 20:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Britannica is wrong in this case. Pius IV was just a dude who happened to be named "Medici", totally unrelated to the family from Florence. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 08:48, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, when he was crowned Pope, the Florentine de' Medici did claim a relationship. It could simply be they wished to take the honour of another Pope in the family, or it could be that until there was the Pope from that branch they did not want to associate with a humbler branch of the family. [tk]   XANDERLIPTAK  13:40, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Medici Bankers
I know that the Medici family started off as bankers but did not see it here or did I miss it?--Frankonno (talk) 23:41, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

They had a small bank that became huge in later years. All of Europe was under the control of this bank. --Frankonno (talk) 23:51, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Designation and details
I removed the section entitled "Designation and details". It was tagged for being empty in July 2009. Since there has been no attempt to fill in that section, there didn't seem much point in keeping it in the article.  howcheng  {chat} 17:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Requested move of several article titles
Hello. I have undertaken a requested move proposal for the article titles of some of the members of the Medici family. I have focused on ten of them (most of which use dates as disambiguation), proposing more conventional naming disambigation that avoids dates. The RM and discussion is to proceed at Talk: Lorenzo de' Medici (1463–1503). Editors interested in the Medici should visit that discussion and voice their opinion on the proposed changes. Thank you. Walrasiad (talk) 11:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Deletion reference to persection of jews
Evidence of persecution is highly speculative and is not relevant to the subject matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.11.51 (talk • contribs)
 * I fail to see how this is "not relevant to the subject matter". Can you explain? Also, can you provide a source to support your claim that "evidence of persecution is highly speculative"? The given reference, Acton's book The Last Medici is pretty clear: "[Cosimo]'s theological humour found another vent in persecuting the Jews." (p. 140) GabrielF (talk) 16:26, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

There are many pages relating to Jewish persecution on wikipedia, none referencing the issue nor history considering it a persecution of jews,researching the Medici should not provide route to the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.11.51 (talk) 15:54, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Referencing The Jews
I do not like references to Jews in this page. I think it detracts from the subject matter and belongs in a seperate article relating to neurosis of the Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.11.51 (talk) 18:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC) What "neurosis of the Jews." There was plenty of persecution going on of themEricl (talk) 02:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Cosimo III passage
A passage at the beginning of the "18th century: the fall of the dynasty" section discusses Cosimo III (1642–1723). But it cites an EB entry on a different Cosimo (1389–1464). The passage is also lifted directly from EB, violating COPYVIO, so it cannot simply be moved up to another section. The section should be fleshed out with information on the correct Cosimo, but for now I am removing the passage. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 01:18, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

First mention of name
The History section here says first recorded mention of the Medici is in 1230 (citation needed), but the page for Giambuono de' Medici says "Chiarissimo di Giambuono de' Medici, who served in the Signoria in 1201". The ambiguity should be cleared up, but I don't have the sources for either. Quarrel (talk) 06:38, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Small caps
Why are small caps (against MOS:SMALLCAPS being used for various names in the genealogy chart, and why also (seemingly randomly) for various names in footnotes?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ &gt;ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ&lt;  03:50, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

"House of Tuscany" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect House of Tuscany. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. &thinsp;&mdash; Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)&thinsp; 18:18, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

"House of Florence" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect House of Florence. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. &thinsp;&mdash; Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)&thinsp; 18:29, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation of name
I don't think the wrong accentuation on the second syllable should be given as a UK variant. It's wrong, that's all. Seadowns (talk) 11:16, 14 November 2019 (UTC)