Talk:Howell Emanuel Donaldson III

Requested move 29 November 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. No prejudice against revisiting if there is a conviction. Jenks24 (talk) 10:08, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Seminole Heights serial killer → Howell Emanuel Donaldson III – Since we now have a name on the suspect, wouldn't it be better to identify this article by the name of the serial killer himself, instead of just having the article named what it was before he was caught?  --  Z L  Media  19:34, 29 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose This is an article about a chain of killings and should be titled as such. At this point there are few sources about Donaldson himself as a person, and we have no idea whether journalists will ever write enough such sources for Wikipedia to have an actual biography of Donaldson. All we have are sources about the killings; it's not appropriate for Wikipedia to have an article titled as if it it were a biography, but containing minimal biographical content and only content about a chain of killings – particularly right now, when Donaldson has not even entered a plea and is thus legally presumed to be innocent of those killings. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 16:00, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree with the vote above, Howell Emanuel Donaldson III is still only a suspect at this point and has not been formally accused of being the killer by a court. I will support a move once (or if) Donaldson III is convicted. Innocent until proven guilty. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment With that in mind, should we at least not have the article starting out with his name then, only to merely list that he is the suspected killer at this point? The way the article is worded up top easily implies that he is the suspect for certain. 192.35.61.46 (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. I reworded the lead, though now it's a bit verbose. Hopefully someone else can cut it down without violating WP:BLP or WP:OR. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 02:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment Thank you for doing that. I will say the primary reason why I had suggested the move was because of how that bit was worded, but now that it's been re-worded, I will rest my case. However, anybody else who thinks otherwise is more than welcome to tack onto the discussion as well.  --  Z L  Media  03:02, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose Although it seems like they have a strong case against Donaldson, we should wait until he's been convicted.Johndavies837 (talk) 14:12, 2 December 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ballistics
At the time of this writing, the article says "As of January 24, 2018, there have been no ballistics to come from the Tampa police department to prove that he is the killer". I have got some issues with that claim. First off, as far as I can tell, that quote can pretty much Cry BLP, because, as far as I can tell, even if there are ballistics to "prove" that he is the killer, saying that something "proves" that he is the killer, when he has neither pled guilty nor been convicted, would, to my understanding, violate BLPCRIME. Secondly, I have read in several sources that Donaldson's gun matches shell casings from the crime scenes. For example, check out this link from Tampa Bay Times. From the link in question: "While detectives kept Donaldson talking, the FDLE analyzed the Glock against their previous findings about the shell casings from the scene. The casings from the fourth murder weren't available, but the gun matched the shell casings from the first three." Here is another link, also from Tampa Bay Times. From the link in question: "Police say shell casings found at the first three murder scenes match the gun Donaldson admitted to purchasing." Here is another link, from NBCMiami. From the link in question: "The crack in the case came Tuesday when Donaldson brought a bag holding a loaded Glock .40-caliber handgun to McDonald's and asked a co-worker to hold it while he went across the street, authorities said." and "In addition to matching shell casings found at the shootings, authorities said location data from Donaldson's cellphone put him at the scene of at least three of the killings." Here is another link, from bbc.com. From the link in question: "He admitted legally purchasing the pistol on 3 October, say police. Investigators say the Glock handgun has been tested and matches bullet shell casings recovered from the murder scenes." I think this should be mentioned in the article, but, as Donaldson (to my knowledge) has neither pled guilty nor been convicted yet, I would prefer discussing it with other editors beforehand and discuss if this could be added to the article without violating BLPCRIME. Heart of Destruction (talk) 09:07, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

And here is another source, from CNN. From the link in question: "Donaldson owned the firearm that police say was used in the four killings, and officials are confident they have their man." and "The affidavit states that further investigation connected Donaldson's firearm and ammunition to the weapon and cartridges used for the first three murders, according to the affidavit. The casings in the fourth murder were not available for comparison, but it had previously been identified as fired from the same firearm as the first three killings, the affidavit states." Heart of Destruction (talk) 14:52, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Serial Killer or Spree Killer?
I think he is a Spree killer and not a serial killer because A serial killer is typically a person who murders three or more people, usually in service of abnormal psychological gratification, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant period of time between them and non of the murder had a month long break between them College railman (talk) 23:48, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

About the August 20, 2020 trial date
At the time of this writing, the article says "His trial is scheduled to begin on August 20, 2020. If found guilty, Donaldson could face the death penalty" and cites this as the source. However, I have read in other sources that a judge set his trial for August 10, 2020 (See here and here). Does the source cited for the claim that his trial is scheduled to begin on August 20, 2020 actually say that his trial is scheduled to begin on August 20, 2020? At the time of this writing, I can't use the source myself (at the time of this writing, the link in question links to some "Access Denied"-page when I click on it, so I can't see for myself if the source does say that his trial is scheduled to begin on August 20, 2020). Heart of Destruction (talk) 09:39, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Changing Back To Serial Killer
I am changing Donaldson's current designation as "spree killer" back to "serial killer"

1.) At NO POINT in the investigation, before OR after Howell Donaldson's arrest did any police officer, law enforcement official, detective, district attorney, lawyer, or any other type of official or authority, EVER refer to him as a "spree killer". Every single time, he was explicitly called a serial killer by both police AND the media. Given that the previous editor was the only person to call Howell Donaldson a spree killer, the change falls firmly into the "Original Research" category, and should have never been made to begin with. Until somebody can find a single media article or person of authority calling Donaldson a spree killer, there is literally no basis for a change, and it quite frankly isn't allowed under Wikipedia's rules.

2.) The term "spree killer" actually is no longer used by the FBI or law enforcement. In fact, a definition of the term used to be listed on the FBI website, but is no longer there. The FBI removed it, and now considers spree killers to simply be serial killers with short cooling down periods.

3.) There are many, MANY cases where perps are labeled serial killers with cooling down periods as short or shorter than Donaldson's. Richard Chase, Danny Rolling, Perez Reed, The I-70 Killer, and The Dnepropetrovsk maniacs all come to mind. Just recently, Jerrid Powell of Los Angeles was officially deemed a serial killer by the LAPD despite virtually no cooling down period between each murder.

In a nutshell, the change to spree killer was entirely based on an earlier editor's personal opinion, and it is an outdated piece of terminology to begin with. Without any sourcing to back it up, that isn't enough to validate a change. TornadoInformation12 (talk) 14:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)TornadoInformation12